Why is abortion so bad?

[Not Safe For Work]

No, just the pregnancy alone, is going to be about nine months.

The aspect that the pro-life platform consistently fails to consider - is that life doesn't STOP at birth.

(Assuming for a moment that the pro-life platform in the US wins, and abortion is outlawed - that translates to about a million more babies per year that the parent has already said she either does not want or is incapable of supporting. In other words - pro-lifers have a personal responsibility to support a million extra people per year, based on their choice being enforced on others. And yet, the actual demographics suggest that the same people that oppose abortion, tend to be against providing an adequate social safety net, also).

To summarize:

"Killing children is bad, unless it happens because of inadequate care after birth! Then it's the fault of the parents for not providing!"

Logic is awesome like that.

I prefer to summarize it: "We believe in personal responsibility - but only when it's other people that are responsible".

[Agymnum]

To summarize:

"Killing children is bad, unless it happens because of inadequate care after birth! Then it's the fault of the parents for not providing!"

Logic is awesome like that.

I prefer to summarize it: "We believe in personal responsibility - but only when it's other people that are responsible".

Much better - applies to right-winger thought in-general as well, although I'm not going to get into specifics since that's off-topic.

[Ostroeuropa]

To summarize:

"Killing children is bad, unless it happens because of inadequate care after birth! Then it's the fault of the parents for not providing!"

Logic is awesome like that.

I prefer to summarize it: "We believe in personal responsibility - but only when it's other people that are responsible".

It's even better than that.
An abortion is essentially a forced early birth.
With a national and free healthcare service, you could try and save all those children.
Maybe 1/100 would survive with crippling health effects.
(Abortion is typically banned after the 20/100 will survive with help point in pregnancy.)

So, abortion at any stage!
If you give a shit about saving the kids life, free healthcare.
And let THEM decide how much money the life of a 1 month year old is worth spending to save when it probably won't survive.
I bet they suddenly don't give a shit

[CVT Temp]

I prefer to summarize it: "We believe in personal responsibility - but only when it's other people that are responsible".

Or more candidly:

"We don't really care about fetuses at all. We just want there to be nasty consequences for having sex because we don't like sex and we feel it's dirty, so we wish to see people punished for having it."

[Raeyh]

I prefer to summarize it: "We believe in personal responsibility - but only when it's other people that are responsible".

Or more candidly:

"We don't really care about fetuses at all. We just want there to be nasty consequences for having sex because we don't like sex and we feel it's dirty, so we wish to see people punished for having it."

But there is no real punishment for the man.

[CVT Temp]

It's even better than that.
An abortion is essentially a forced early birth.
With a national and free healthcare service, you could try and save all those children.
Maybe 1/100 would survive with crippling health effects.
(Abortion is typically banned after the 20/100 will survive with help point in pregnancy.)

So, abortion at any stage!
If you give a shit about saving the kids life, free healthcare.
And let THEM decide how much money the life of a 1 month year old is worth spending to save when it probably won't survive.
I bet they suddenly don't give a shit

Because it's not really about fetuses at all. It's about having an excuse to feel morally superior to other people.

[Atollus]

"We don't really care about fetuses at all. We just want there to be nasty consequences for having sex because we don't like sex and we feel it's dirty, so we wish to see people punished for having it."

This one is probably most accurate really.

[Ostroeuropa]

Or more candidly:

"We don't really care about fetuses at all. We just want there to be nasty consequences for having sex because we don't like sex and we feel it's dirty, so we wish to see people punished for having it."

But there is no real punishment for the man.

Paternity fees. Fatherhood against their will.
Essentially they are being denied their abortion rights.

[CVT Temp]

But there is no real punishment for the man.

Unwanted child support is about all they can get. But trust me, if biology could punish men too, they'd be all for it, though I do admit they hate female sexuality more. Why do you think so many conservative religious demagogues thought AIDS was a punishment from god?

[CVT Temp]

This one is probably most accurate really.

When it comes to morally sanctimonious pricks, the most cynical explanation for their behavior is the most likely to be true.

Like how you assume that all anti-gay extremists are closet-cases.

[Not Safe For Work]

I prefer to summarize it: "We believe in personal responsibility - but only when it's other people that are responsible".

Much better - applies to right-winger thought in-general as well, although I'm not going to get into specifics since that's off-topic.

Yes, I'm not really discussing the overall rightwing extreme of America, per se - only as it impacts this topic - i.e. the fact that banning abortion is a choice, and thus every time a woman is forced to carry a pregnancy to term against her will, the resulting offspring exist NOT by the choice of the mother, but by the choice of an interventionist 'other' - who therefore has the burden of responsibility for that child.

And yet we have kids in orphanages, right now. Kids in America that are hungry. Homeless. In abusive homes. Uncared for. Dying. America is already failing to meet the needs of the children that already exist here, even before we add the cumulative million extra kids per year that an abortion ban would lead to.

It seems inconsistent to me. Either you think we need more people, and you'll suck up what it takes to make that happen - or you're not willing to accept that cost, in which case you've got no business arguing that others should be forced to have babies.

[Raeyh]

But there is no real punishment for the man.

Unwanted child support is about all they can get. But trust me, if biology could punish men too, they'd be all for it, though I do admit they hate female sexuality more. Why do you think so many conservative religious demagogues thought AIDS was a punishment from god?

You could easily make "causing unintended pregnancy" a criminal offense.

[Torhill]

I'm with Richard Dawkins on this one. All of the sperm and eggs which didn't get fertilised are just as dead as the aborted baby, had just the same chance at life. In the end, it's the mother's choice and upon the parents' conscience alone.

[Atollus]

This one is probably most accurate really.

When it comes to morally sanctimonious pricks, the most cynical explanation for their behavior is the most likely to be true.

Like how you assume that all anti-gay extremists are closet-cases.

Does anyone actually believe that?

You could easily make "causing unintended pregnancy" a criminal offense.

Shh! Don't give the crazies any more ideas.

[Ostroeuropa]

When it comes to morally sanctimonious pricks, the most cynical explanation for their behavior is the most likely to be true.

Like how you assume that all anti-gay extremists are closet-cases.

Does anyone actually believe that?

You could easily make "causing unintended pregnancy" a criminal offense.

Shh! Don't give the crazies any more ideas.

Awesomesonglyrics

Ted Haggard is completely Heterosexual
Ted Haggard is completely Heterosexual
Ted Haggard is completely Heterosexual
Glory how-he-blew-ya.

Once there was a preacher by the name of Ted Haggard
Who stumbled from the path
Or you might even say staggered
He was one in a million
Or more aptly one-in-ten
Some folks say he put the "men" in "Amen"

He preached the gospel message
Of intolerance and self-loathing
He traveled on his wayward way betraying his betrothing
He was the sole of piety and no one doubted him
Until he hired a gigolo and used a pseudonym

So he humbly went to counseling and then
Three weeks later he's born again….again!

Because…
Chorus
Ted Haggard is completely Heterosexual
Ted Haggard is completely Heterosexual
Ted Haggard is completely Heterosexual
Glory how-he-blew-ya.

He telephoned the White House for a weekly consultation
Saying "Here's what Jesus thinks about all the pending legislation"
And marriage is a covenant between a man and wife
And homosexuals will fry forever in the afterlife.

He did some other things he'd later disavow.
But he's putting all behind him now

What does Leviticus have to say
Yeah, what does it say, about being gay?
"To lie with man is an abomination"
Like cursing your parents, trimming your beard, planting wheat and barley in the same furrow, eating pork, wearing polyester, and masturbation

And what did Jesus have to say
Yeah, what did he say, about being gay?
Well, nothing
...

Well Ted's a little haggard but he's thankful for the schism
(You're right, but wait for it)
And you might find it hard to swallow the syllogism
That even evil-doers have a reason to rejoice
Because they can simply make a better lifestyle choice

So if you're a gay teenager,
Probably Jesus doesn't love you
Because he knows Ted Haggard doesn't think a whole lot of you
So don't embrace the way god made you
Here's what you should do:
Choose to be a hetero and 7 foot 2.

Because…

Chorus
Ted Haggard is completely Heterosexual
Ted Haggard is completely Heterosexual
Ted Haggard is completely Heterosexual
Glory how-he-blew…
I mean Glory hole-e…
I mean Glory halle-lube ya

[Not Safe For Work]

Or more candidly:

"We don't really care about fetuses at all. We just want there to be nasty consequences for having sex because we don't like sex and we feel it's dirty, so we wish to see people punished for having it."

But there is no real punishment for the man.

There's a pronounced sexual double-standard. A guy that has sex with a different girl every weekend is a stud. A girl who has sex with a different girl every year is a slut.

Punishment is skewed towards women because they CAN be held accountable (obviously - you rarely have to ask who the mother is, in case of pregnancy)... and because of the massive cultural double-standard.

[CVT Temp]

You could easily make "causing unintended pregnancy" a criminal offense.

Nowhere near enough political backing to get something like that passed.

[CVT Temp]

Does anyone actually believe that?

There's actually a lot of truth to it. Not ALL of them are closeted, but a large percentage are.

[Agymnum]

Does anyone actually believe that?

There's actually a lot of truth to it. Not ALL of them are closeted, but a large percentage are.

Tends to be the more you hate something, the more likely your hate stems from an attempt to disassociate yourself from it.

A lot of people I know who are vehemently anti-racist have privately confided to me that it's out of guilt because they used to be very racist and this anti-racist hate is a way of equalizing it out and purging their inner demons.

Same concept for homosexual-haters, except with a negative (rather than positive) outcome based on guilt.

[Les Quebecoise]

Don't forget, if you're talking to a right-winger, anal sex between a man and woman just doesn't happen.

(And if you show them a man and woman having anal sex, they'll probably find a way to somehow say they are having homosexual sex)......

Because obviously anything sexual involving non-vaginal intercourse must be homosexual.

I mean, why would a man ever see oral or anal sex as desirable unless he was a FILTHY DISSIDENT WHO DESERVED TO BE PUNISHED FOR HIS CRIMES AGAINST MANKIND AND GOD?

Exactly!
What IS this absurd and ridiculous notion of sex being...gasp..ENJOYABLE... that the left-wing talks about?!
Heaven forbid that someone would actually DARE extract...shudder...PLEASURE..from sex!!!
You MUST be immediately punished (preferably by hanging or some other form of capital punishment, because- don't forget, us right-wingers think that ALL human life, even that which is unborn and isn't really alive and is just a cluster of cells without a consciousness, to be SACRED....except, of course, if they are a filthy criminal...no no, since a criminal has actually been BORN we don't consider it to be alive and therefore are not only okay with putting it to death, but we actually advocate it.

No abortion- because you are 'murdering' a cluster of cells that has no consciousness .. no no.. you MUST be forced to KEEP it until it becomes an actual baby so you can give birth to it so we can later deny it healthcare and other things it might need to ensure its survival, and so then later, after the misery and hunger and oppression and disease drives it to commit some kind of crime out of desperation, we can sentence it to capital punishment and hang it or put it to death somehow.
Because "life" is sooooo sacred to us.....

It is an innocent soul that MUST be protected from being murdered...unless, of course, it is the result of incest or rape.... then it is a filthy creature and suddenly somehow its 'right to live' doesn't apply to it.... in THAT case, even though our denial of facts causes us to think that a cluster of cells with no brain or consciousness is somehow a "baby" that is "murdered" through abortion, we think that if it is the product of rape or incest, it is yucky and does not deserve our protection and compassion, which is really just a disguise for our inexplicable desire to control women's private parts and reproductive systems.

[Death Metal]

I subjectively feel that a fetus born after the sixth week is a truly functioning organism, albeit a parasitic one. I also subjectively feel that at this point it has a soul. Therefore I would prefer that the aborter gave the child up to adoption instead.

Objectively though, it's not my business, the government's, or anyone's choice to tell a woman what to do with what is growing in her body. Even if I had a hand in it's creation.

So objectively, there is nothing truly wrong with abortion.

[Raeyh]

You could easily make "causing unintended pregnancy" a criminal offense.

Nowhere near enough political backing to get something like that passed.

I thought family values was in favor politically among the socially conversative.

[Agymnum]

Nowhere near enough political backing to get something like that passed.

I thought family values was in favor politically among the socially conversative.

It's a good thing the majority of us vote liberal (at least, according to polls).

[CVT Temp]

I thought family values was in favor politically among the socially conversative.

Only insofar as it doesn't inconvenience straight white men. Newt can have all the affairs he wants.

[JJ Place]

That's the flaw of your argument. A baby is not a baby until it's born; fetuses are not unborn babies; they're a process towards a baby. It's a sympathy term that's thrown out to incite fury, passion, and anger for a cause that has little actual points and spoiled conclusions to make.


Not true; a good number of pregnancies end in mis-carriages, and we don't treat those as accidental deaths, only a mistake in pregnancy.
Two, that's a flawed premise; if it will does not equate to is. Writing a business plan is not equivalent to actually opening the doors of a business. Scrapping a business plan 3 weeks in and deciding to go do something else does not equate to closing down a business; the entity never existed, only the plan. It takes far more processes to reach an ultimate goal than merely having a process in line for the eventual existence of a particular entity; ending a particular process prior to a finished outcome does not equate to destroying that outcome after it's been finished, the two concepts are different. Flushing out a few thousand cells from a uterus does not equate to the brutal murder of a baby; the two are not equivalent, regardless if those cells might have eventually resulted in a baby. A fetus is not a baby; it will become a baby, it's not life, it will only become life if certain processes occur. Should those processes be terminated, that's not the equivalent of ending the eventual outcome; the two are separated by a number of special phenomena that make them different.


Ah, can you name me an example of these exceptions to your rule?

A business plan is an idea at first. A fetus is a physical, living thing.

A plan articulated on paper, often with a wide selection of materials. A business plan is quite physical, and the ideas quite physical; all of which will, inevitably, become a business; unless it doesn't. A business plan, however, is not actually a business, the concept remains.

A fetus will become a baby inevitably,

That does not matter. What it is and what it will become are two completely separate beings. You cannot host morality on an object based upon what it might be one day, regardless of how certain you are it will one day be that particular thing in your mind. Because a fetus will become a baby does not make a fetus equivalent to baby; a fetus is equivalent only to a fetus, and morality follows suite. What's moral to do to a fetus, and what's more to a baby are two completely separate standards in spite of all connections you can draw between the two.

obviously excluding miscarriages, abortion or human interference.

Yes, a fetus will not become a baby. They'rs a large different between a fetus and baby; particularly that a baby is a living entity, an independent organism, and a being; even tallied on the population chart; however, a fetus is merely a shell of a person, important only if a baby will eventually take it's place. Should a fetus not be carried to full term, it's not a crime or a concern.

Scrapping the idea to open a restaurant is a bit different then destroying a fetus and deciding to get knocked up again in a few different stages.

If you believe all women who get abortions are sluts who's irresponsibility should be met with veracious opposition, then perhaps you should find yourself in a tight squeeze personally, and then return to judging other people for deciding not to bring another individual into the world on their account.