Multiculturalism 'past its sell-by date' warns race expert

[Quintium]

Singapore is also exceedingly tyrannical and disturbed, and culturally and morally backwards.

And that's the second part of why Singapore works. It's a strong-willed state - the state is almighty. Even if you don't like it, you have to listen to it - and if you do something the Singaporean state really doesn't like, you're executed. That's one of the explanations for so many North African muslims running through Europe causing trouble - the culture they were raised in dictates that really inexcusable behaviour is punished by death, flogging or ostracism, and they don't get any of those even for gang rape and murder here.

[Galla-]

Singapore is also exceedingly tyrannical and disturbed, and culturally and morally backwards.

And that's the second part of why Singapore works. It's a strong-willed state - the state is almighty.

Yeah, this is how it works in America too.

You know, except for the part where it doesn't.

[Mursiyah]

In the interest of full disclosure, I actually am a practicing Muslim and I don't think being a Muslim ever conflicted with me being a functioning member of Western society.

While I've never actually spent too much time in Western Europe, I personally think any problems there relating to Muslim immigrant communities is more to do with poverty and social segregation (normal problems faced by any new immigrant community) than anything as serious as "A clash of the cultures".

I think that distinction is important because closing a country's borders to refugees due to economic reasons is perfectly reasonable but closing a country's borders to refugees in order to protect the "purity" of that county is reactionary, backwards and a pretty slippery slope.

[Gravlen]

I live in Toronto, and ethnic tensions are pretty much non-existent.

Then again, Canadian immigration rules are called fascist by many Europeans without any trace of irony.

Since I think this claim is less truthful than what you've said before in this thread, I'd like to see a source for it.

[Quintium]

Yeah, this is how it works in America too.

You know, except for the part where it doesn't.

America is a weak state. Up to the 1950s, America was a strong state, but after that it moved closer to Western Europe.
Singapore is on an entirely different level. It executes people for a plethora of crimes and makes it known that it's fully in charge.

While I've never actually spent too much time in Western Europe, I personally think any problems there relating to Muslim immigrant communities is more to do with poverty and social segregation (normal problems faced by any new immigrant community) than anything as serious as "A clash of the cultures".

I'll just note the things I've listed before that make that claim problematic.

1. East Asians have not faced these problems at all, despite an identical group size and an identical socioeconomic situation upon arrival. They have not caused any trouble, and they were considered integrated by the second generation.
2. These are not new immigrant groups. They've been here since the 1960s, and since then it's only gotten worse. The second and third generation are marked by increasing crime rates, increasing rates of interest for wahhabism and salafism, and a general disregard for western culture that worries even their rural conservative parents.
3. This matter of social segregation is self-chosen. The government has tried to offer them free housing outside city centres, but they didn't want to leave their own community. Those who did accept other housing still usually only have contact with their own community.

[Woodstead]

I remember when I was thrown off Facebook BNP pages for addressing the fact that while some minorities, and some immigrants may not be fully literate to the standard of the Queen's English, a lot of the BNP supporters and those who oppose integration were unable to post in anything near English yet it was stuff about how dumb Africans were and how Polish take jobs. I agree that some measures to give preferential treatment may need some relaxation, but only slightly.

I found this just a few weeks ago now. I am no longer allowed on the page. Something needs to be done about the embedded anger towards minorities.

Some people resent multiculturalism in my town; my town is made up of a large portion of Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Ukrainian, and Indian immigrants. Most of my friends are Muslim and Hindu girls, and I wouldn't change it. However, as I am your average blonde, white, blue eyed teenager, a lot of people challenge it. "Is it a fetish?" is one remark I remember. It seems that even in a diverse, open minded town in the UK seem thrown back that I hang out with a different sex and race group.

People now say that their freedom of speech is curtailed by positive discrimination. Only in the minority, I would say- that's the same for sexuality in some cases.

[Gravlen]

Yeah, this is how it works in America too.

You know, except for the part where it doesn't.

America is a weak state. Up to the 1950s, America was a strong state, but after that it moved closer to Western Europe.
Singapore is on an entirely different level. It executes people for a plethora of crimes and makes it known that it's fully in charge.

While I've never actually spent too much time in Western Europe, I personally think any problems there relating to Muslim immigrant communities is more to do with poverty and social segregation (normal problems faced by any new immigrant community) than anything as serious as "A clash of the cultures".

I'll just note the things I've listed before that make that claim problematic.

1. East Asians have not faced these problems at all, despite an identical group size and an identical socioeconomic situation upon arrival. They have not caused any trouble, and they were considered integrated by the second generation.

So islam isn't a factor, since the Uighurs have "not faced these problems at all"?

2. These are not new immigrant groups. They've been here since the 1960s, and since then it's only gotten worse. The second and third generation are marked by increasing crime rates, increasing rates of interest for wahhabism and salafism, and a general disregard for western culture that worries even their rural conservative parents.

Source?

3. This matter of social segregation is self-chosen. The government has tried to offer them free housing outside city centres, but they didn't want to leave their own community. Those who did accept other housing still usually only have contact with their own community.

Sooo... "normal problems faced by any new immigrant community"?

Have "second and third generation immigrants" gotten offers of free housing?

[Gravlen]

I found this just a few weeks ago now. I am no longer allowed on the page. Something needs to be done about the embedded anger towards minorities.

Something needs to be done about the educational levels first! Holy tapdancing Christ! The Queen is having a fit as we speek!

[Sidhae]

Japan and South Korea are civilized, technologically advanced countries with very reasonable civil rights record, yet they don't seem to share Western views on diversity. Around 98% of their population is native, and they seem to be intending to keep it that way.

Another example - UAE. While people come over there to work from all over the world (much thanks to Dubai), only their grandchildren who have adopted Islam will be able to hope for Emirate citizenship.

Neither of these countries is known for having closed borders or violence against foreigners - yet they have made it perfectly clear that those coming here to seek a better life will be treated as just that - hired labourers.

Why is it such a problem for Europeans to implement such a policy and boot out any "labourers" that breach the terms of contract?

[Saragossa]

Japan and South Korea are civilized, technologically advanced countries with very reasonable civil rights record, yet they don't seem to share Western views on diversity. Around 98% of their population is native, and they seem to be intending to keep it that way.

Another example - UAE. While people come over there to work from all over the world (much thanks to Dubai), only their grandchildren who have adopted Islam will be able to hope for Emirate citizenship.

Neither of these countries is known for having closed borders or violence against foreigners - yet they have made it perfectly clear that those coming here to seek a better life will be treated as just that - hired labourers.

Why is it such a problem for Europeans to implement such a policy and boot out any "labourers" that breach the terms of contract?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 64368.html

Because the UAE is basically a cyberpunk dystopia

[Quintium]

So islam isn't a factor, since the Uighurs have "not faced these problems at all"?

What on Earth do you mean? The Uyghurs are a divided people, and violence does occasionally erupt, and the Chinese government does use a lot of repression to keep them under control.

2. These are not new immigrant groups. They've been here since the 1960s, and since then it's only gotten worse. The second and third generation are marked by increasing crime rates, increasing rates of interest for wahhabism and salafism, and a general disregard for western culture that worries even their rural conservative parents.

Source?

http://www.scp.nl/content.jsp?objectid=28281 - PDF, top right. Figures for 2011; figures for this year will be released a few months into 2013.
Page 206 - "9.6% of all young men with Moroccan heritage was suspected of committing a crime in 2009."
Page 208 - Here's a table that sorts them for the first and second generation. While for other non-western groups this crime rate drops during the second generation, it rises for Moroccans and Turks, and since these groups form a very large portion of our non-western immigrants, the figure for non-western immigrants on average also rises.

3. This matter of social segregation is self-chosen. The government has tried to offer them free housing outside city centres, but they didn't want to leave their own community. Those who did accept other housing still usually only have contact with their own community.

Sooo... "normal problems faced by any new immigrant community"?

Not for East Asians, or for Eastern Europeans, or for North Americans, or for South Americans.
Those have integrated rather flawlessly, unlike Moroccans, Turks and Somalis.

Have "second and third generation immigrants" gotten offers of free housing?

Of course they have.

On the matter of diversity, while this is a white nationalist point of view, I think it's rather fascinating. Why does diversity only mean diversity in countries where people are white and western values are held? Why can't we send a few dozen million white christians to North Africa, tell them to build churches and demand special rights based on their minority status?

[Warshania]

Japan and South Korea are civilized, technologically advanced countries with very reasonable civil rights record, yet they don't seem to share Western views on diversity. Around 98% of their population is native, and they seem to be intending to keep it that way.

Japan and Korea are amazing countries but still have the demographic problem. Japan's fertility rate is around 1.3, while Korea's is something more than 1.2. These rates are extremely low. The FR in Europe are a bit higher than that, which is why these nations are open to immigration. Immigration is a way to maintain population growth and can be a positive phenomenon, as long as you keep "toxic" individuals away. This is something west Europe doesn't do, unfortunately.

[Geadland]

I support uniculturalism, not multiculturalism. Our nations should have single culture which everyone belongs to, no matter what your race or religion.

[Gravlen]

So islam isn't a factor, since the Uighurs have "not faced these problems at all"?

What on Earth do you mean? The Uyghurs are a divided people, and violence does occasionally erupt, and the Chinese government does use a lot of repression to keep them under control.

You claimed that east asians "have not faced these problems at all" when immigrating. If you stand by that claim, we can rule out their religion as a factor.

Source?

http://www.scp.nl/content.jsp?objectid=28281 - PDF, top right. Figures for 2011; figures for this year will be released a few months into 2013.
Page 206 - "9.6% of all young men with Moroccan heritage was suspected of committing a crime in 2009.

Marokkaanse Nederlanders vallen op door de sterke concentratie van delinquent gedrag rond de (late) adolescentie. Deze groep komt tussen het twintigste en dertigste levensjaar snel tot rust en valt op middelbare leeftijd niet meer uit de toon te midden van de overige herkomstgroepen.

- Suspected, not convicted.
- Seems to not talk about third-generation immigrants.
- The high level of suspicion doesn't last past the middle ages.
- Interestingly enough young people from the Netherlands Antilles have a high level of suspicion against them as well. See e.g. fig. 9.5.

Page 208 - Here's a table that sorts them for the first and second generation. While for other non-western groups this crime rate drops during the second generation, it rises for Moroccans and Turks, and since these groups form a very large portion of our non-western immigrants, the figure for non-western immigrants on average also rises.

- The report mentions education (or lack thereof) as a significant factor.
- No mention of third generation. Did you lie about them?
- No mention of "increasing rates of interest for wahhabism and salafism, and a general disregard for western culture that worries even their rural conservative parents".

Sooo... "normal problems faced by any new immigrant community"?

Not for East Asians, or for Eastern Europeans, or for North Americans, or for South Americans.
Those have integrated rather flawlessly, unlike Moroccans, Turks and Somalis.

Indonesians do well then?

Also, seems to me that the report - which highlights the educational differences between immigrant groups as an important factor - may be in play here.

Have "second and third generation immigrants" gotten offers of free housing?

Of course they have.

Really? Then you should have no problem showing that. Also, show how native dutch people react to the same offer please.

[Quintium]

You claimed that east asians "have not faced these problems at all" when immigrating. If you stand by that claim, we can rule out their religion as a factor.

How? The East Asians we have here are mostly atheist. The Indonesians we have here are protestant. They've succesfully integrated on their own with little to no government aid.
On the other hand, the muslims we have here are always sunni, with varying degrees of fanaticism. They've been helped in every conceivable way, but they're getting worse.

- Suspected, not convicted.

If we're going to mention that, we might also want to mention that 55% of all prisoners here are non-Dutch. Moroccans are the largest non-Dutch group in Dutch prisons. Additionally, our prosecution and courts have such capacity problems that lower-importance problems - including theft - are rarely ever tackled.

- Interestingly enough young people from the Netherlands Antilles have a high level of suspicion against them as well. See e.g. fig. 9.5.

Indeed. I don't want to discuss them, because the last time I did I was branded a racist.
And yes, a large majority of them are black Afro-Caribbeans.

- The report mentions education (or lack thereof) as a significant factor.

It lists education as a factor - but it also mentions, elsewhere, that Moroccans and Turks are miles behind in every way when it comes to education.
Even while we have mandatory secondary education, a lot of them don't have qualifications beyond primary school.

- No mention of third generation. Did you lie about them?

No - they're discussed elsewhere.

Indonesians do well then?

Yes - most of them are protestant Moluccans.
They don't cause trouble, and they work hard.

[Quintium]

Oh, and a small update on those 'Horror Drassas'. After a newspaper reported that up to three thousand children in this country live in mosque boarding houses, some of them illegal and many of them with accusations of corporal punishment, politicians have finally woken up a bit. Still, the left is trying to blame it on poverty and discrimination once more. Because we all know being poor and being discriminated against means you'll send your children away to live in the attic of a mosque, where they're beaten into submission and have to wake up at three in the morning for prayer.

[Betalia]

Multiculturalism can only work if it is implemented with the national situation in mind. This is why we have a country like Canada, with almost zero ethnic tension, and a country like the UK where there is more ethnic tension.

[Astholm]

Multiculturalism can only work if it is implemented with the national situation in mind. This is why we have a country like Canada, with almost zero ethnic tension, and a country like the UK where there is more ethnic tension.

I live in a part of Northern England (won't say where for privacy) where there was ethnic tension some 30 years ago, but there isn't now.
Here, it's a pretty diverse mix, English, Scandinavian, Irish, Indians, Afro-Caribbean, Indo-Caribbean, Chinese, Welsh, and pretty much little to no racial tension, as of now.
Yes, there are some examples of the racial stereotypes but many of the people are fairly Westernised.

Multiculturalism can work, but on a region-by-region basis it's always different, you can't just say "XYZ country has ethnic tension", though, can you?

[Zweite Alaje]

Multiculturalism can only work if it is implemented with the national situation in mind. This is why we have a country like Canada, with almost zero ethnic tension, and a country like the UK where there is more ethnic tension.

I agree with this. The European nations must seek to assimilate the immigrants more completely and make it clear that their cultures are to remain dominate in their respective territory. The newcomers will have to accept that their culture will be absorbed.

[Genivaria]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't most scientists use the term 'ethnicity' as opposed to race nowadays?

[Sidhae]

Japan and South Korea are civilized, technologically advanced countries with very reasonable civil rights record, yet they don't seem to share Western views on diversity. Around 98% of their population is native, and they seem to be intending to keep it that way.

Another example - UAE. While people come over there to work from all over the world (much thanks to Dubai), only their grandchildren who have adopted Islam will be able to hope for Emirate citizenship.

Neither of these countries is known for having closed borders or violence against foreigners - yet they have made it perfectly clear that those coming here to seek a better life will be treated as just that - hired labourers.

Why is it such a problem for Europeans to implement such a policy and boot out any "labourers" that breach the terms of contract?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 64368.html

Because the UAE is basically a cyberpunk dystopia

And rightly so - as with any story that seems almost too good to be true. Whenever someone bombards you with splendorous offers, better make damn sure there isn't a catch behind them.

The people described in the story, there's nobody else but themselves to blame for their misfortunes - they made no effort to investigate everything about the place they were moving to, and must now pay the price of their ill-prepared decisions.

As I always say, better to be poor at home than try to get rich abroad - because in most cases, those who try still end up poor in a foreign land where they are neither needed nor wanted.

[Quintium]

Multiculturalism can work, but on a region-by-region basis it's always different, you can't just say "XYZ country has ethnic tension", though, can you?

For those who think it'll all turn out alright in the end, I've compiled some visual information to show that it's not just new clothes and music and food.
And this really is the video of a rollercoaster, not the real thing. Going to university in a real 'multicultural' city, I see these scenes every day.

The new all-Arab 'neighbourhood fathers', who have to 'educate' youths.


The result of 40 years of multiculturalism.


Isn't it lovely when you have kids waving green flags and holding up signs trying to convert passers-by to Islam?


Apparently, this is called 'a monument'.


The all-new Essalam mosque, funded by the Emir of Dubai.


Multiculturalism also means ethnic tensions between minorities.
One of our bigger mistakes was to bring in both nationalist Turks and PKK-aligned Kurds, meaning they've started attacking each other.


These are Turks demonstrating in favour of Turkish premier Erdogan.



And here we have the pro-Assad group outside our ministry of Foreign Affairs.
Are you beginning to understand why we're a weak state yet?


These are the guys that make us regret having free transport of people in the Schengen zone and weak immigration policies.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ae5_1320786379 - And here's what parts of Britain are like.

[Yewhohohopia]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't most scientists use the term 'ethnicity' as opposed to race nowadays?

The term 'race expert' is the kind of thing Theodor Oberländer would've liked. Just sayin.

[Fintanland]

Oh cute, the brownshirt brought us some inflammatory and not at all selectively taken pictures. NOW I am convinced.

[Quintium]

Oh cute, the brownshirt brought us some inflammatory and not at all selectively taken pictures. NOW I am convinced.

Well, yes - there wasn't much more to discuss, since all who attempted to challenge my views so far - including yourself - have quietly withdrawn.