Multiculturalism 'past its sell-by date' warns race expert

[EnragedMaldivians]

This emotion-based approach only generated a blooodbath and a quick fizzle when the One-Balled Wonder tried it the first time. Why risk it again? I mean, seriously, fear as a primary means of politics? I am sure you want to be on the inflicting side of that, but oh how you would cry if you got the wrong end of the stick...

Violence is the primary means of Politics.

This is something pompous first year IR/Poliscience students or high school kids with some relative interest in politics say when they want to sound edgy. Unfortunately, it's not true.

[Norsklow]

Violence is the primary means of Politics.

This is something pompous first year IR/Poliscience students or high school kids with some relative interest in politics say when they want to sound edgy. Unfortunately. It's not true.

Says who? Ultimately, the power of the State rests upon the application of the Axe and the Rod.

[Quintium]

That report actually concludes (if my Dutch is adequate) that the cost of immigration is particularly high in the Netherlands, and that in most other countries, the effect is much more positive.

I'll summarise the conclusions.

• Non-western immigrants use welfare much more and pay fewer taxes, meaning their net contribution to public finances is negative. When income and expenses over the course of one's life are added, one non-western immigrant aged 25-35 will eventually cost the government €40,000-€50,000. At all other ages, costs are higher. These are the costs of an 'average' non-western immigrant.
• These costs are caused because they use welfare payments more often, need more health care paid for them and are involved in crime to such a degree that it makes a difference on public finances. Additionally, many have their rent repaid. The areas where they cost less are commercial child care and subsidies for higher education.
• In 2008, 48,597 non-western immigrants entered the country. An estimated 25,000 will stay permanently. If this one-year arrival group of non-western immigrants are like the current population of non-western immigrants, the public sector will have to field €4.3 bn to pay for their expenses over the course of their lives.
• These costs are considered higher than those of other countries because we have an extensive welfare network.

[EnragedMaldivians]

This is something pompous first year IR/Poliscience students or high school kids with some relative interest in politics say when they want to sound edgy. Unfortunately. It's not true.

Says who? Ultimately, the power of the State rests upon the application of the Axe and the Rod.

There's way way more to politics than the state having the monopoly of violence over a given territory. Some level of the threat of violence is necessary for the state to function, yes, but at the same time there are perfectly peaceful methods of policy making and gaining political position, that rely on consensus, debate and democracy rather than the metaphorical axe and rod. That all policy would ultimately require coercion if it came down to it is not really all that much of an insight.

If you'd said violence is a primary means of politics as opposed to the primary means of politics I might not have objected,

[Norsklow]

Says who? Ultimately, the power of the State rests upon the application of the Axe and the Rod.

There's way way more to politics than the state having the monopoly of violence over a given territory. Some level of the threat of violence is necessary for the state to function, yes, but at the same time there are perfectly peaceful methods of policy making and gaining political position, that rely on consensus, debate and democracy rather than the metaphorical axe and rod. That all policy would ultimately require coercion if it came down to it is not really all that much of an insight.

If you'd said violence is a primary means of politics as opposed to the primary means of politics I might not have objected,

I think your assumption is that politics is something that takes place at the level of the nation-state. I do not see it that narrowly.
Unless the basic questions have been answered, and the pact-against-all-comers has been firmly established, you haven't got a State to start with.

[EnragedMaldivians]

There's way way more to politics than the state having the monopoly of violence over a given territory. Some level of the threat of violence is necessary for the state to function, yes, but at the same time there are perfectly peaceful methods of policy making and gaining political position, that rely on consensus, debate and democracy rather than the metaphorical axe and rod. That all policy would ultimately require coercion if it came down to it is not really all that much of an insight.

If you'd said violence is a primary means of politics as opposed to the primary means of politics I might not have objected,

I think your assumption is that politics is something that takes place at the level of the nation-state.

Nah. That would make me the worst IR major. Ever.

I was just limiting it to the level of the state but even at a broader, international level, there's more to politics than violence.

Anyway, perhaps we should continue this discussion in another thread.

[Norsklow]

I think your assumption is that politics is something that takes place at the level of the nation-state.

Nah. That would make me the worst IR major. Ever.

Anyway, perhaps we should continue this discussion in another thread.

Eager and interested, but this is, as you say in other words, not the place.

[Gravlen]

Sure, it is common knowledge that immigrants never create any sort of wealth...

East Asian immigrants do; islamic immigrants do not.

Fail: Many east asian immigrants are muslims; Many islamic immigrants are from East Asia. Those are not two mutually exclusive groups.

[Norsklow]

East Asian immigrants do; islamic immigrants do not.

Fail: Many east asian immigrants are muslims; Many islamic immigrants are from East Asia. Those are not two mutually exclusive groups.

How many Chinese are muslim? Or Thais and Filipinos, for that matter?

[Sulamalik]

Fail: Many east asian immigrants are muslims; Many islamic immigrants are from East Asia. Those are not two mutually exclusive groups.

How many Chinese are muslim? Or Thais and Filipinos, for that matter?

There are around 20 million Chinese muslims, more than 3 million Filipino muslims, and roughly 7 million Thai muslims.

The majority of the world's Muslims population are Asian.

[Sidhae]

This emotion-based approach only generated a blooodbath and a quick fizzle when the One-Balled Wonder tried it the first time. Why risk it again? I mean, seriously, fear as a primary means of politics? I am sure you want to be on the inflicting side of that, but oh how you would cry if you got the wrong end of the stick...

You're talking to a guy who once proposed kicking out all the foreign born Muslims before suggesting that all of Europe should then convert to Islam; something about revitalising and saving them from moral degeneracy or whatnot.

Anyway, Sidhae's posts are meant to be entertaining, in a psychotic kind of way. There's not much use in debating them.

Finally someone understands.

Though I like a good argument from time to time, I prefer to save it for times and places where my opinions actually matter and change something. NSG clearly isn't one of them, so obviously I'm hear just for the fun of it.

As for the particular post you were referring to, I said it would not be a big deal if Europeans themselves eventually converted, but certainly at their own initiative, not forced by outsiders.

[Norsklow]

How many Chinese are muslim? Or Thais and Filipinos, for that matter?

There are around 20 million Chinese muslims, more than 3 million Filipino muslims, and roughly 7 million Thai muslims.


The majority of Muslims are Asian.

Inasmuch as there is something like 1.3 billion Chinese, its kinda too minute. When we're talking East Asian we're talking rice, chopsticks, that kind of thing.

If you are talking about South Asian, that is another matter.

[Gravlen]

Fail: Many east asian immigrants are muslims; Many islamic immigrants are from East Asia. Those are not two mutually exclusive groups.

How many Chinese are muslim? Or Thais and Filipinos, for that matter?

21,667,000 (1.6%), 3,930,000 (5.2%), and 4,654,000 (5.1%) respectively. That's the estimate from 2009, at least.

[Sidhae]

One can only make people fear what they are already afraid of deep down inside.

In any case, you can use rational reason only against rational reasonable people. Most humans are neither. They will much rather listen to emotion than reason (which is why Liberalism has been so successful, to begin with).

This emotion-based approach only generated a blooodbath and a quick fizzle when the One-Balled Wonder tried it the first time. Why risk it again? I mean, seriously, fear as a primary means of politics? I am sure you want to be on the inflicting side of that, but oh how you would cry if you got the wrong end of the stick...

No doubt I would. But the inflicting side would not care, as wouldn't I in their place.

[Sulamalik]

There are around 20 million Chinese muslims, more than 3 million Filipino muslims, and roughly 7 million Thai muslims.


The majority of Muslims are Asian.

Inasmuch as there is something like 1.3 billion Chinese, its kinda too minute. When we're talking East Asian we're talking rice, chopsticks, that kind of thing.

If you are talking about South Asian, that is another matter.

You asked for numbers, I gave you some. The fact that they're minorities in those countries doesn't change the fact that there are significant muslim populations throughout Asia.

[Norsklow]

Inasmuch as there is something like 1.3 billion Chinese, its kinda too minute. When we're talking East Asian we're talking rice, chopsticks, that kind of thing.

If you are talking about South Asian, that is another matter.

You asked for numbers, I gave you some. The fact that they're minorities in those countries doesn't change the fact that there are significant muslim populations throughout Asia.

IIRC the topic of discussion was East Asians, and not Asians in general.

[Quintium]

It seems, looking at those figures, that the percentage of muslims in those countries is roughly similar to the percentage of muslims in Europe.

[Sulamalik]

It seems, looking at those figures, that the percentage of muslims in those countries is roughly similar to the percentage of muslims in Europe.

Percentage wise, yes, though most of these Asian countries have vastly larger total populations. For example, though the ethnic Muslim population in China might seem insignificant percentage wise (1-2%) their actual numbers would make them a majority most European nations.

[Yewhohohopia]

It seems, looking at those figures, that the percentage of muslims in those countries is roughly similar to the percentage of muslims in Europe.

It's going to be like goddamn Chinrabia in no time at all

[Quintium]

It's going to be like goddamn Chinrabia in no time at all

Oh, don't worry. The Chinese government keeps them in the west and keeps them under control with lethal force if it has to.

[Galla-]

This emotion-based approach only generated a blooodbath and a quick fizzle when the One-Balled Wonder tried it the first time. Why risk it again? I mean, seriously, fear as a primary means of politics? I am sure you want to be on the inflicting side of that, but oh how you would cry if you got the wrong end of the stick...

Violence is the primary means of Politics.

One of, not the.

[Yewhohohopia]

It's going to be like goddamn Chinrabia in no time at all

Oh, don't worry. The Chinese government keeps them in the west and keeps them under control with lethal force if it has to.

Quite. I believe the policy is officially known as the Uighur, Please Doctrine.

[Genocidonia]

About 60% of this thread thinks multiculturalism is a failure. Incidentally, this thread is also 100% white and middle class.

[Gauntleted Fist]

About 60% of this thread thinks multiculturalism is a failure. Incidentally, this thread is also 100% white and middle class.

...No.

[Costa Alegria]

About 60% of this thread thinks multiculturalism is a failure. Incidentally, this thread is also 100% white and middle class.

Hmm. So EnragedMaldivians isn't an ethnic Maldivian living in the Maldives? Someone should tell him that his skin colour has changed.