The 2012 Three Ring Circus AKA The US Presidential Election

[PapaJacky]

...which is what I've been arguing. Your whole argument is dependent on intrinsically bad humans, which is an evolutionary trait that's becoming less relevant as altruism takes precedent.

Again, no true scotsmen in the works.

No, no - my complaint is that libertarianism is inherently bad. The only argument that can be made that it is NOT entirely bad, is the ASSUMPTION that people are intrinsically SO good, that they will overcome all the shortcomings of the inherently selfish and socially-destructive ideology. History tells us this isn't true.

There's a subtle difference there, you're not quite seeing, apparently.

Again, your whole argument essentially revolves around an assumption of general human morals and values. This is a bad assumption to make as there has been, contrary to "thousands of years of evidence" that human societies are becoming more and more altruistic. This essentially means that a plain assumption that libertarianism is inherently bad because people are inherently bad becomes flawed. Again, no true scotsman.

[Not Safe For Work]

No, no - my complaint is that libertarianism is inherently bad. The only argument that can be made that it is NOT entirely bad, is the ASSUMPTION that people are intrinsically SO good, that they will overcome all the shortcomings of the inherently selfish and socially-destructive ideology. History tells us this isn't true.

There's a subtle difference there, you're not quite seeing, apparently.

Again, your whole argument essentially revolves around an assumption of general human morals and values.

No, it doesn't - as I actually just explained.

Libertarianism is inherently selfish and socially corrosive.

This is a bad assumption to make as there has been, contrary to "thousands of years of evidence" that human societies are becoming more and more altruistic.

Where this is true, this is true because of the overall benevolent effects of government.

This essentially means that a plain assumption that libertarianism is inherently bad because people are inherently bad becomes flawed. Again, no true scotsman.

No, you're misreading it.

I'm saying that libertarianism IS inherently bad.

I'm saying that the only way to mitigate some of that inherent bad-ness, is to ASSUME that people are ALL inherently SO good, that they'll overcome the flaws in the ideology.

The 'assumption' here is not on my part. I'm rejecting YOUR assumption.

[Gauntleted Fist]

This is a bad assumption to make as there has been, contrary to "thousands of years of evidence" that human societies are becoming more and more altruistic.

Really? Prove it.

In another thread, preferably.

[PapaJacky]

Again, your whole argument essentially revolves around an assumption of general human morals and values.

No, it doesn't - as I actually just explained.

Libertarianism is inherently selfish and socially corrosive.

This is a bad assumption to make as there has been, contrary to "thousands of years of evidence" that human societies are becoming more and more altruistic.

Where this is true, this is true because of the overall benevolent effects of government.

This essentially means that a plain assumption that libertarianism is inherently bad because people are inherently bad becomes flawed. Again, no true scotsman.

No, you're misreading it.

I'm saying that libertarianism IS inherently bad.

I'm saying that the only way to mitigate some of that inherent bad-ness, is to ASSUME that people are ALL inherently SO good, that they'll overcome the flaws in the ideology.

The 'assumption' here is not on my part. I'm rejecting YOUR assumption.

Which again, is dependent on the people in a Libertarian government, hence my original claim that your entire view of Libertarianism (and probably other forms of Government) is based on the Enlightenment assumption that all men are bad-which again, no true scotsman! Also, not going to bother playing with quote tags.

This is a bad assumption to make as there has been, contrary to "thousands of years of evidence" that human societies are becoming more and more altruistic.

Really? Prove it.

In another thread, preferably.

I do thank you for the reality check that this is about the Presidential race and not political parties, but I can respond to that in a topic-related way; Egypt, 2500 B.C., thousands work to build a religious (don't claim aliens) structure. Payment of the workers include standard nutritions, a temporary village for them and their families to work and live. Present day, hundreds work to build the 1WTC. Payment of the workers include decent wages (average weekly pay of construction workers was over $1000, 25% more than the median pay of all workers), health benefits provided by the Government, and more than likely, life insurance money for their families in case of their deaths. As you can see, we went from "Build this because you love me" to "Build this and you'll be rewarded along with everybody else, in one way shape or form". Just a quick example.

[Not Safe For Work]

...your entire view of Libertarianism (and probably other forms of Government) is based on the Enlightenment assumption that all men are bad...

It's not, as already repeatedly explained. But this is off-topic, as someone just reminded me, so I'm not going to argue it further, here.

[Frisivisia]

...your entire view of Libertarianism (and probably other forms of Government) is based on the Enlightenment assumption that all men are bad...

It's not, as already repeatedly explained. But this is off-topic, as someone just reminded me, so I'm not going to argue it further, here.

I dunno about you, but mine is. People are shitbags, and they need something to reign in their shitbaggery.

[Gauntleted Fist]

I do thank you for the reality check that this is about the Presidential race and not political parties, but I can respond to that in a topic-related way; Egypt, 2500 B.C., thousands work to build a religious (don't claim aliens) structure. Payment of the workers include standard nutritions, a temporary village for them and their families to work and live. Present day, hundreds work to build the 1WTC. Payment of the workers include decent wages (average weekly pay of construction workers was over $1000, 25% more than the median pay of all workers), health benefits provided by the Government, and more than likely, life insurance money for their families in case of their deaths. As you can see, we went from "Build this because you love me" to "Build this and you'll be rewarded along with everybody else, in one way shape or form". Just a quick example.

I hope you realize most of the Egyptians who built pyramids were actually slaves who were killed if they disobeyed. And slavery still exist in some forms to this very day.

Also Mitt Romney's campaign seems to have foundered. Wonder what it'll take to get them moving again.

[PapaJacky]

I do thank you for the reality check that this is about the Presidential race and not political parties, but I can respond to that in a topic-related way; Egypt, 2500 B.C., thousands work to build a religious (don't claim aliens) structure. Payment of the workers include standard nutritions, a temporary village for them and their families to work and live. Present day, hundreds work to build the 1WTC. Payment of the workers include decent wages (average weekly pay of construction workers was over $1000, 25% more than the median pay of all workers), health benefits provided by the Government, and more than likely, life insurance money for their families in case of their deaths. As you can see, we went from "Build this because you love me" to "Build this and you'll be rewarded along with everybody else, in one way shape or form". Just a quick example.

I hope you realize most of the Egyptians who built pyramids were actually slaves who were killed if they disobeyed. And slavery still exist in some forms to this very day.

Also Mitt Romney's campaign seems to have foundered. Wonder what it'll take to get them moving again.

That is actually debated IIRC (whether or not they were slaves). I haven't watched enough NatGeo documentaries about pyramids (because aliens) but you get the gist of it, Government has become more altruistic over time, and, relating to the topic at hand, MITT ROMNEY WON'T BE AS ALTRUISTIC AS OBAMA!

Edit: Yeah, I was right. New evidence (like 2010) showed that they were not slaves, but rather "respected workers".

[The Archregimancy]

I do thank you for the reality check that this is about the Presidential race and not political parties, but I can respond to that in a topic-related way; Egypt, 2500 B.C., thousands work to build a religious (don't claim aliens) structure. Payment of the workers include standard nutritions, a temporary village for them and their families to work and live. Present day, hundreds work to build the 1WTC. Payment of the workers include decent wages (average weekly pay of construction workers was over $1000, 25% more than the median pay of all workers), health benefits provided by the Government, and more than likely, life insurance money for their families in case of their deaths. As you can see, we went from "Build this because you love me" to "Build this and you'll be rewarded along with everybody else, in one way shape or form". Just a quick example.

I hope you realize most of the Egyptians who built pyramids were actually slaves who were killed if they disobeyed. And slavery still exist in some forms to this very day.

You're both about equally right, and you're both about equally wrong.

"...even if pyramid-building was a form of social security, providing employment for a large proportion of the population, especially during the months of the inundation when the fields were under water; even if the workers were reasonably well housed and fed, not the slaves of popular myth; even if the overssers impressed upon their recruits the noble nature of the task in hand: the fact remains that the conditions were uncomfortable (at best) and the work compulsory. When royal officials came to a village to draft its men for state service, there is unlikely to have been much rejoicing. Workers sustained frequent injuries on the Giza plateau, their skeletons showing evidence of broken bones, severe lower-back stress and painful arthritic joints. Injuries must have been common, often resulting in fatalities. The official record is predictably silent about how many died building the Great Pyramid."

Wilkinson, Toby
2010 The Rise and Fall of Ancient Egypt. Bloomsbury: London

[Khadgar]

I do thank you for the reality check that this is about the Presidential race and not political parties, but I can respond to that in a topic-related way; Egypt, 2500 B.C., thousands work to build a religious (don't claim aliens) structure. Payment of the workers include standard nutritions, a temporary village for them and their families to work and live. Present day, hundreds work to build the 1WTC. Payment of the workers include decent wages (average weekly pay of construction workers was over $1000, 25% more than the median pay of all workers), health benefits provided by the Government, and more than likely, life insurance money for their families in case of their deaths. As you can see, we went from "Build this because you love me" to "Build this and you'll be rewarded along with everybody else, in one way shape or form". Just a quick example.

I hope you realize most of the Egyptians who built pyramids were actually slaves who were killed if they disobeyed. And slavery still exist in some forms to this very day.

Also Mitt Romney's campaign seems to have foundered. Wonder what it'll take to get them moving again.

Pyramids were public works projects, not done by slave labor.

source

Contrary to some popular depictions, the pyramid builders were not slaves or foreigners. Excavated skeletons show that they were Egyptians who lived in villages developed and overseen by the pharaoh's supervisors.

The builders' villages boasted bakers, butchers, brewers, granaries, houses, cemeteries, and probably even some sorts of health-care facilities—there is evidence of laborers surviving crushed or amputated limbs. Bakeries excavated near the Great Pyramids could have produced thousands of loaves of bread every week.

Some of the builders were permanent employees of the pharaoh. Others were conscripted for a limited time from local villages. Some may have been women: Although no depictions of women builders have been found, some female skeletons show wear that suggests they labored with heavy stone for long periods of time.

Graffiti indicates that at least some of these workers took pride in their work, calling their teams "Friends of Khufu," "Drunkards of Menkaure," and so on—names indicating allegiances to pharaohs.

An estimated 20,000 to 30,000 workers built the Pyramids at Giza over 80 years. Much of the work probably happened while the River Nile was flooded.

[The Emerald Dawn]

New theory.

Romney wins the election, setting off a chain of events that results in the 21DEC12 apocalypse.

[PapaJacky]

New theory.

Romney wins the election, setting off a chain of events that results in the 21DEC12 apocalypse.

At this point, despite all the attempts at disenfranchising voters, like mentioned before, Romney has a lot of ground to make up in order to defeat Obama. That means winning all the battle ground states and then some.

[The Archregimancy]

Pyramids were public works projects, not done by slave labor.

source

Contrary to some popular depictions, the pyramid builders were not slaves or foreigners. Excavated skeletons show that they were Egyptians who lived in villages developed and overseen by the pharaoh's supervisors.

The builders' villages boasted bakers, butchers, brewers, granaries, houses, cemeteries, and probably even some sorts of health-care facilities—there is evidence of laborers surviving crushed or amputated limbs. Bakeries excavated near the Great Pyramids could have produced thousands of loaves of bread every week.

Some of the builders were permanent employees of the pharaoh. Others were conscripted for a limited time from local villages. Some may have been women: Although no depictions of women builders have been found, some female skeletons show wear that suggests they labored with heavy stone for long periods of time.

Graffiti indicates that at least some of these workers took pride in their work, calling their teams "Friends of Khufu," "Drunkards of Menkaure," and so on—names indicating allegiances to pharaohs.

An estimated 20,000 to 30,000 workers built the Pyramids at Giza over 80 years. Much of the work probably happened while the River Nile was flooded.

While basically factually accurate, that NatGeo link overemphasises the positives at the expense of the considerable negatives.


How on earth did a US election thread get derailed into a technical discussion of pyramid building during the 4th Dynasty?

<considers splitting this off into a separate thread>

[The Emerald Dawn]

New theory.

Romney wins the election, setting off a chain of events that results in the 21DEC12 apocalypse.

At this point, despite all the attempts at disenfranchising voters, like mentioned before, Romney has a lot of ground to make up in order to defeat Obama. That means winning all the battle ground states and then some.

I won't be deterred from my delusional fever dream that Romney is really going to be the cause for the super-volcano to explode, and a tidalwave the size of the moon to flood everywhere but Africa.

[Northern Dominus]

At this point, despite all the attempts at disenfranchising voters, like mentioned before, Romney has a lot of ground to make up in order to defeat Obama. That means winning all the battle ground states and then some.

I won't be deterred from my delusional fever dream that Romney is really going to be the cause for the super-volcano to explode, and a tidalwave the size of the moon to flood everywhere but Africa.

Hmm..New Mombasa anyone?

[HeresJohnny]

Gallup just released an assessment of the ramifications of Romney's "47%" video: http://www.gallup.com/poll/157544/voter ... ative.aspx

I love this: 44% of Republicans say the remarks will make them more likely to vote for them. What a fucking caricature the GOP has become.

If 44% said they didn't care - I could get my head round that. I was listening to Sean Hannity on the way home the other day, and he was talking about how the Romney-hates-poor-people video was incomplete - so it might have been tampered with, to make Romney look worse than he is.

So I could 'get' that. They think they're being played, so it makes no difference one way or the other. I can actually understand that psychology. But the people who think it's fair and representative of what Romney said.. and STILL say it makes them MORE likely to support him?

I can't get my head around that, at all.

Even better is the best thing they can do to reciprocate is release a near 15-year-old tape of Obama saying he does believe in some wealth redistribution to give the poor a shot at success.

"Yeah, our candidate may have said he didn't care about people who don't pay taxes due to being too poor when he himself hides his tax returns, but the Obozo actually said he wants to help the poor bastards!"

Does the US exist in some parallel cartoon world or something?

[The Emerald Dawn]

If 44% said they didn't care - I could get my head round that. I was listening to Sean Hannity on the way home the other day, and he was talking about how the Romney-hates-poor-people video was incomplete - so it might have been tampered with, to make Romney look worse than he is.

So I could 'get' that. They think they're being played, so it makes no difference one way or the other. I can actually understand that psychology. But the people who think it's fair and representative of what Romney said.. and STILL say it makes them MORE likely to support him?

I can't get my head around that, at all.

Even better is the best thing they can do to reciprocate is release a near 15-year-old tape of Obama saying he does believe in some wealth redistribution to give the poor a shot at success.

"Yeah, our candidate may have said he didn't care about people who don't pay taxes due to being too poor when he himself hides his tax returns, but the Obozo actually said he wants to help the poor bastards!"

Does the US exist in some parallel cartoon world or something?

FOX certainly does. They defended Romney's tape by saying that it was five months old, and clearly delivered by a biased source, but was completely indicative of the truth, so no one should be upset. Then they claim exclusivity to the Obama tape when any media entity worth their salt would have looked at the entire message (the last sentence of which FOX cut off) and said, "Yep, non-story, move along."

[Sane Outcasts]

Even better is the best thing they can do to reciprocate is release a near 15-year-old tape of Obama saying he does believe in some wealth redistribution to give the poor a shot at success.

"Yeah, our candidate may have said he didn't care about people who don't pay taxes due to being too poor when he himself hides his tax returns, but the Obozo actually said he wants to help the poor bastards!"

Does the US exist in some parallel cartoon world or something?

FOX certainly does. They defended Romney's tape by saying that it was five months old, and clearly delivered by a biased source, but was completely indicative of the truth, so no one should be upset. Then they claim exclusivity to the Obama tape when any media entity worth their salt would have looked at the entire message (the last sentence of which FOX cut off) and said, "Yep, non-story, move along."

I'm tempted to take a look at the conservative blogs that originated the 47% number. They obviously have a very different take on the country and the direction it's going, but I'm afraid if I stare at it too long I'll get a migraine. Maybe if I just check on it in small doses the cognitive dissonance won't hurt as much.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

New theory.

Romney wins the election, setting off a chain of events that results in the 21DEC12 apocalypse.

At this point, despite all the attempts at disenfranchising voters, like mentioned before, Romney has a lot of ground to make up in order to defeat Obama. That means winning all the battle ground states and then some.

But he's got The Lord Jesus on his side, unlike that damned commie who occupies the Oval Office. He's bound to win.

[The Emerald Dawn]

FOX certainly does. They defended Romney's tape by saying that it was five months old, and clearly delivered by a biased source, but was completely indicative of the truth, so no one should be upset. Then they claim exclusivity to the Obama tape when any media entity worth their salt would have looked at the entire message (the last sentence of which FOX cut off) and said, "Yep, non-story, move along."

I'm tempted to take a look at the conservative blogs that originated the 47% number. They obviously have a very different take on the country and the direction it's going, but I'm afraid if I stare at it too long I'll get a migraine. Maybe if I just check on it in small doses the cognitive dissonance won't hurt as much.

Take a look at the fact that the 47% number that is constantly parroted almost exclusively includes FOX' target audience.

[TomKirk]

Pyramids were public works projects, not done by slave labor.

source

While basically factually accurate, that NatGeo link overemphasises the positives at the expense of the considerable negatives.


How on earth did a US election thread get derailed into a technical discussion of pyramid building during the 4th Dynasty?

<considers splitting this off into a separate thread>

Because restoring the policies of the 4th Dynasty is Romney's secret "jobs plan"?

[The Emerald Dawn]

Fast and Furious is out. Eric Holder has been found to not have known before he terminated the program upon finding out. Seems like a field office decided to do this on their own.

My biggest criticism is that this seems to indicate a lack of central government control, rather than an excess of it. Some areas of the media are saying that Obama started this program, because F&F started in '09, ignoring that Operation: Wide Receiver which started in '06.

[Northern Dominus]

I'm tempted to take a look at the conservative blogs that originated the 47% number. They obviously have a very different take on the country and the direction it's going, but I'm afraid if I stare at it too long I'll get a migraine. Maybe if I just check on it in small doses the cognitive dissonance won't hurt as much.

Take a look at the fact that the 47% number that is constantly parroted almost exclusively includes FOX' target audience.The American Taliban

Hey, if the Newsroom went to great lengths to point out the demographic you're trying to describe it's only fair to actually use the proper term now isn't it?

Fast and Furious is out. Eric Holder has been found to not have known before he terminated the program upon finding out. Seems like a field office decided to do this on their own.

My biggest criticism is that this seems to indicate a lack of central government control, rather than an excess of it. Some areas of the media are saying that Obama started this program, because F&F started in '09, ignoring that Operation: Wide Receiver which started in '06.

And it's not going to stop the American Taliban candidates in congress from continuing to drag Holder into hearings. Because facts be damned, it was Holder's, and by extension the President's fault anyway.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Fast and Furious is out. Eric Holder has been found to not have known before he terminated the program upon finding out. Seems like a field office decided to do this on their own.

My biggest criticism is that this seems to indicate a lack of central government control, rather than an excess of it. Some areas of the media are saying that Obama started this program, because F&F started in '09, ignoring that Operation: Wide Receiver which started in '06.

And it's not going to stop the American Taliban candidates in congress from continuing to drag Holder into hearings. Because facts be damned, it was Holder's, and by extension the President's fault anyway.

Right-wing media and blogs: Because facts are boring and communist.

[Domassia]

Do you want who I want to win, or who i want to win that actually has a chance?

Cause if it's the second then the Libertarian candidate is out.