Affirmative Action

[Norsklow]

For whom the Bell curves. I shall accept that argument only once you show me that Affirmative Action in the US does channel the cushy seats to Asian-Americans.

Methinks there has been an error here somewhere.

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SNIP

That is entirely possible - but where?

Either a system leads to giving the cushy seats to the Best of the Best
OR it is leads to giving chushy seats to those who are Not the Best of the Best - aka the less qualified.

[Free Soviets]

And? Why give them a leg to stand on? Why not just look at everyone the same, regardless of their race?

My point is that they don't have a leg to stand on, because affirmative action does not involve giving jobs to people less-/unqualified.

hmm, this lack of legs to stand on seems discriminatory. prosthetics and accessible buildings for everyone who whines about reverse racism!

[Ifreann]

Methinks there has been an error here somewhere.

---

SNIP

That is entirely possible - but where?

Either a system leads to giving the cushy seats to the Best of the Best
OR it is leads to giving chushy seats to those who are Not the Best of the Best - aka the less qualified.

Why would affirmative action lead to Asian-Americans getting the cushy seats?

---

My point is that they don't have a leg to stand on, because affirmative action does not involve giving jobs to people less-/unqualified.

hmm, this lack of legs to stand on seems discriminatory. prosthetics and accessible buildings for everyone who whines about reverse racism!

We have no legs, and we won't stand for this injustice!

[The Reasonable]

...And this is why you were never the one who managed to convince me of liberal ideas, but rather other, much more understanding people...

Simply put, you always try to insult the opposing argument instead of discussing how it's mistaken. And affirmative action isn't even the best way to deal with entrenched discrimination- the best way is to invest more on education for under-represented minorities so that they may be equally qualified later.

More education? In the United States, in this day and age? You go try to get an increase to a school budget passed on the basis of "We need to educate our children to be more accepting of all people," I dare you, you Antii-American multicultural socialist, you.

Haha...this is what some people don't understand about me. I'm all for funding education programs aimed at under-served people (and that includes minorities AND whites, mostly living in poverty in the US) and am all for teaching our children to be accepting of all people, but affirmative action, to work in its long term goal of eliminating discrimination, should not automatically give an advantage to under-represented minorities, but rather give them the resources to succeed on their own merits.

[Sidhae]

I've always wanted to ask those affirmative-action policy-makers - don't you think it's a little too late to try and atone for the sins of slave traders and segregationists?

The only thing affirmative action has accomplished is instilled minorities with a huge ego and even bigger sense of entitlement without any actual merit to back it all up. These days you still hear them whining about the "white man keeping them down", and "racism" has become the first word of abuse that a Black person will spew out whenever a White person does something that displeases him, even for a legitimate reason.

They could legitimately complain about discrimination 50 years ago, but in today's wildly-abused civil rights paradise, that word has no relevance.

[Free Soviets]

I've always wanted to ask those affirmative-action policy-makers - don't you think it's a little too late to try and atone for the sins of slave traders and segregationists?

The only thing affirmative action has accomplished is instilled minorities with a huge ego and even bigger sense of entitlement without any actual merit to back it all up. These days you still hear them whining about the "white man keeping them down", and "racism" has become the first word of abuse that a Black person will spew out whenever a White person does something that displeases him, even for a legitimate reason.

They could legitimately complain about discrimination 50 years ago, but in today's wildly-abused civil rights paradise, that word has no relevance.

what's funny about this is that it is so obviously disconnected from reality that you would think it was somebody mocking people who complain about affirmative action...only it is also literally exactly what they say. makes it impossible to judge on the merits.

anyways, there are still people alive today who threw rocks at black kids who dared go to the white school. and the legacy of that sort of thing continues in a huge way. hell, if you send out identical resumes with different names, the 'whiter' sounding name will get vastly more call-backs.

the past ain't even past.

[Ifreann]

I've always wanted to ask those affirmative-action policy-makers - don't you think it's a little too late to try and atone for the sins of slave traders and segregationists?

It's really got nothing to do with atoning for past sins.

The only thing affirmative action has accomplished is instilled minorities with a huge ego and even bigger sense of entitlement without any actual merit to back it all up. These days you still hear them whining about the "white man keeping them down", and "racism" has become the first word of abuse that a Black person will spew out whenever a White person does something that displeases him, even for a legitimate reason.

He said, judging millions upon millions of people with nary a scrap of evidence.

They could legitimately complain about discrimination 50 years ago, but in today's wildly-abused civil rights paradise, that word has no relevance.

Do please go on. Explain to us how there is no more discrimination in society.

[Mavorpen]

I've always wanted to ask those affirmative-action policy-makers - don't you think it's a little too late to try and atone for the sins of slave traders and segregationists?

The only thing affirmative action has accomplished is instilled minorities with a huge ego and even bigger sense of entitlement without any actual merit to back it all up. These days you still hear them whining about the "white man keeping them down", and "racism" has become the first word of abuse that a Black person will spew out whenever a White person does something that displeases him, even for a legitimate reason.

They could legitimately complain about discrimination 50 years ago, but in today's wildly-abused civil rights paradise, that word has no relevance.

You really don't know what you're talking about. While "reverse racism" does exist, the notion that it's even comparable to racism against blacks is completely asinine.

hell, if you send out identical resumes with different names, the 'whiter' sounding name will get vastly more call-backs.

the past ain't even past.

Going off of this, I actually sent a resume in to a Wal-Mart, and when I was called for the interview, the guy literally admitted that the only reason he scheduled the interview was because my name is "white" and I didn't sound like the "stereotypical black guy."

[Occupied Deutschland]

I've always wanted to ask those affirmative-action policy-makers - don't you think it's a little too late to try and atone for the sins of slave traders and segregationists?

It's really got nothing to do with atoning for past sins.

So why does it get based off of race in any way? If affirmative action programs are designed to assist the poor/disadvantaged-financially perhaps these programs should be geared towards anyone who is poor instead of minorities just because minorities have a higher chance of being poor.

I mean, that in itself is pretty racist.

[Ifreann]

hell, if you send out identical resumes with different names, the 'whiter' sounding name will get vastly more call-backs.

the past ain't even past.

Going off of this, I actually sent a resume in to a Wal-Mart, and when I was called for the interview, the guy literally admitted that the only reason he scheduled the interview was because my name is "white" and I didn't sound like the "stereotypical black guy."

I'm given to understand that studies have been done along these lines. Otherwise identical CVs and applications are sent out, some with typically white names, some with typically black names. The phony details on the black CVs and applications got less call backs.

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It's really got nothing to do with atoning for past sins.

So why does it get based off of race in any way? If affirmative action programs are designed to assist the poor/disadvantaged-financially perhaps these programs should be geared towards anyone who is poor instead of minorities just because minorities have a higher chance of being poor.

That's what social welfare is for. Affirmative action can benefit the well off as well as the poor.

I mean, that in itself is pretty racist.

Yes, it's racist to acknowledge that there's a lot of people who, for some mad reason, hate blacks. Somehow.

[The Reasonable]

I've always wanted to ask those affirmative-action policy-makers - don't you think it's a little too late to try and atone for the sins of slave traders and segregationists?

It's really got nothing to do with atoning for past sins.

The only thing affirmative action has accomplished is instilled minorities with a huge ego and even bigger sense of entitlement without any actual merit to back it all up. These days you still hear them whining about the "white man keeping them down", and "racism" has become the first word of abuse that a Black person will spew out whenever a White person does something that displeases him, even for a legitimate reason.

He said, judging millions upon millions of people with nary a scrap of evidence.

They could legitimately complain about discrimination 50 years ago, but in today's wildly-abused civil rights paradise, that word has no relevance.

Do please go on. Explain to us how there is no more discrimination in society.

As much as I hate Ifreann's single-sided rhetoric without trying to understand the opposing side a lot of the time, I will have to agree with him on this one. Sidhae, some people are like that. Not all minorities are. Affirmative action is well-meaning, in my opinion, but a better solution is equal access to good education- something that will take longer and will be more expensive, but will go a long way in truly taking care of the problem of discrimination.

And Ifreann, the study you cited was in Freakonomics, and highlights a problem with racism and discrimination and does not necessarily support affirmative action.

As with affirmative action for the well-off, that's unfair- people can't help what race they are, so why should they be advantaged or disadvantaged purely based on that and not what they've done or what they've experienced?

[Mavorpen]

I'm given to understand that studies have been done along these lines. Otherwise identical CVs and applications are sent out, some with typically white names, some with typically black names. The phony details on the black CVs and applications got less call backs.

Yes

[Zambeze]

I've always wanted to ask those affirmative-action policy-makers - don't you think it's a little too late to try and atone for the sins of slave traders and segregationists?

The only thing affirmative action has accomplished is instilled minorities with a huge ego and even bigger sense of entitlement without any actual merit to back it all up. These days you still hear them whining about the "white man keeping them down", and "racism" has become the first word of abuse that a Black person will spew out whenever a White person does something that displeases him, even for a legitimate reason.

They could legitimately complain about discrimination 50 years ago, but in today's wildly-abused civil rights paradise, that word has no relevance.

what's funny about this is that it is so obviously disconnected from reality that you would think it was somebody mocking people who complain about affirmative action...only it is also literally exactly what they say. makes it impossible to judge on the merits.

anyways, there are still people alive today who threw rocks at black kids who dared go to the white school. and the legacy of that sort of thing continues in a huge way. hell, if you send out identical resumes with different names, the 'whiter' sounding name will get vastly more call-backs.

the past ain't even past.

You realize Affirmative Action has benefited mostly white women?

All economic indicators, higher education admissions’ practices, and corporate and law firm figures show that when it comes to leveling the playing field in the past 30 years, white women—not black men, black women or other persons of color—have gained the most ground.

[Rasseland]

I am about as against it as you can get. Why should a less qualified black man get a job that a more qualified white man would do better just because every one hated the black man's grandpa?

[Mavorpen]

I am about as against it as you can get. Why should a less qualified black man get a job that a more qualified white man would do better just because every one hated the black man's grandpa?

Keep foaming at the mouth at the thought of "BLAKS TAKIN UR JERBS!" when Affirmative Action says nothing of the sort.

[Shard_Head]

I am about as against it as you can get. Why should a less qualified black man get a job that a more qualified white man would do better just because every one hated the black man's grandpa?

Your problem is not understanding the concept itself.

[Farnhamia]

More education? In the United States, in this day and age? You go try to get an increase to a school budget passed on the basis of "We need to educate our children to be more accepting of all people," I dare you, you Antii-American multicultural socialist, you.

Haha...this is what some people don't understand about me. I'm all for funding education programs aimed at under-served people (and that includes minorities AND whites, mostly living in poverty in the US) and am all for teaching our children to be accepting of all people, but affirmative action, to work in its long term goal of eliminating discrimination, should not automatically give an advantage to under-represented minorities, but rather give them the resources to succeed on their own merits.

Ha ha ... Way to miss the point. Anti-tax people have been running around slashing school budgets for decades. Any attempt to increase them will be seen as an attempt by the lazy members of the teachers' unions to grab some sweet, sweet tax money. What you believe is irrelevant, it's what other people believe, the people who will vote on those budgets, and they don't agree with you.

[Norsklow]

That is entirely possible - but where?

Either a system leads to giving the cushy seats to the Best of the Best
OR it is leads to giving chushy seats to those who are Not the Best of the Best - aka the less qualified.

Why would affirmative action lead to Asian-Americans getting the cushy seats?

---

hmm, this lack of legs to stand on seems discriminatory. prosthetics and accessible buildings for everyone who whines about reverse racism!

We have no legs, and we won't stand for this injustice!

As in Highest SAT score means get a seat,and if your SAT is not creme de la creme, you get to take the walk.

[The Reasonable]

Haha...this is what some people don't understand about me. I'm all for funding education programs aimed at under-served people (and that includes minorities AND whites, mostly living in poverty in the US) and am all for teaching our children to be accepting of all people, but affirmative action, to work in its long term goal of eliminating discrimination, should not automatically give an advantage to under-represented minorities, but rather give them the resources to succeed on their own merits.

Ha ha ... Way to miss the point. Anti-tax people have been running around slashing school budgets for decades. Any attempt to increase them will be seen as an attempt by the lazy members of the teachers' unions to grab some sweet, sweet tax money. What you believe is irrelevant, it's what other people believe, the people who will vote on those budgets, and they don't agree with you.

Stupid me...stupid me. Telling sarcasm in text is a bit difficult for me, and I apologize. And at that then, I would be proud to be an anti-American commie socialist then.

I am about as against it as you can get. Why should a less qualified black man get a job that a more qualified white man would do better just because every one hated the black man's grandpa?

You disgrace all those who oppose affirmative action. Just because the method is flawed doesn't mean the idea wasn't bad. Keep on with your racism. No wonder people have been able to justify it- on the basis of bigots like you.

[Sulamalik]

I always thought affirmative action laws don't mandate the hiring of specific people, they just request employers to make an effort to hire qualifed minorities.

[Sidhae]

It's really got nothing to do with atoning for past sins.


He said, judging millions upon millions of people with nary a scrap of evidence.


Do please go on. Explain to us how there is no more discrimination in society.

As much as I hate Ifreann's single-sided rhetoric without trying to understand the opposing side a lot of the time, I will have to agree with him on this one. Sidhae, some people are like that. Not all minorities are. Affirmative action is well-meaning, in my opinion, but a better solution is equal access to good education- something that will take longer and will be more expensive, but will go a long way in truly taking care of the problem of discrimination.

And Ifreann, the study you cited was in Freakonomics, and highlights a problem with racism and discrimination and does not necessarily support affirmative action.

As with affirmative action for the well-off, that's unfair- people can't help what race they are, so why should they be advantaged or disadvantaged purely based on that and not what they've done or what they've experienced?

It is said that the road to hell is always paved with good intents.

The principles of non-discrimination and affirmative action are self-contradictory. You cannot claim to be colour-blind yet provide a particular minority group with advantages simply because of their membership of that group, regardless of how disadvantaged they might have been in the past.

All that wouldn't be an issue if people just accepted that it's not human nature to be colour-blind. Races do exist and they are a major factor in how humans identify "us" from "them". In an area where one race has a numerical majority over others, it will obviously dominate over others and favour it's own members with various privileges. That's just how things work, and trying to regulate that will achieve nothing besides causing more confusion without any actual result - exactly the thing that's happened in the European - dominated America. Discrimination still exists, even though people go to extreme lengths to pretend that it doesn't by using political correctness, affirmative actions and other absurd nonsense that's really just sweeping the dirt under the carpet.

I figure racial and ethnic discrimination will only end when everyone accepts that all humans are inherently racist and learn to respect that rather than fight it or pretend that it's not true.

[Norstal]

Do please go on. Explain to us how there is no more discrimination in society.

(Image)

You know, if you read the guy's sig, you'd know that they're a freakin Nazi.

[Ad Nihilo]

It is said that the road to hell is always paved with good intents.

The principles of non-discrimination and affirmative action are self-contradictory. You cannot claim to be colour-blind yet provide a particular minority group with advantages simply because of their membership of that group, regardless of how disadvantaged they might have been in the past.

All that wouldn't be an issue if people just accepted that it's not human nature to be colour-blind. Races do exist and they are a major factor in how humans identify "us" from "them". In an area where one race has a numerical majority over others, it will obviously dominate over others and favour it's own members with various privileges. That's just how things work, and trying to regulate that will achieve nothing besides causing more confusion without any actual result - exactly the thing that's happened in the European - dominated America. Discrimination still exists, even though people go to extreme lengths to pretend that it doesn't by using political correctness, affirmative actions and other absurd nonsense that's really just sweeping the dirt under the carpet.

I figure racial and ethnic discrimination will only end when everyone accepts that all humans are inherently racist and learn to respect that rather than fight it or pretend that it's not true.

Wow... I haven't read something so mindbogglingly incoherent in a very long time.

1) Humans are not colour blind - yes.

2) It doesn't therefore mean that all humans are inherently racist. Just because you are, doesn't mean that the rest of us also have a pretty positive outlook on thinking other people are inferior to us just because we're not colour blind and they have darker skins.

3) The fact that discrimination still exist is the very reason why we still have positive discrimination, and most of us still think that we SHOULD have more of it.

[Norstal]

Why would affirmative action lead to Asian-Americans getting the cushy seats?

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We have no legs, and we won't stand for this injustice!

As in Highest SAT score means get a seat,and if your SAT is not creme de la creme, you get to take the walk.

Asians are still being discriminated in workplaces. So we need more affirmative action in this area. Not less.

http://jab.sagepub.com/content/33/3/356.short

If you're talking about college admissions, those are usually based on merit anyways.

[Seperates]

Why would affirmative action lead to Asian-Americans getting the cushy seats?

---

We have no legs, and we won't stand for this injustice!

As in Highest SAT score means get a seat,and if your SAT is not creme de la creme, you get to take the walk.

Not really.

If you did something outside of school, such as started an advocates group... or went far out of your way to help those in need. Or designed a product. Or started your own business, etc. etc. etc. you have a very good chance of getting into Ivy League.