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Affirmative Action

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Greed and Death
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Postby Greed and Death » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:31 pm

Norstal wrote:
greed and death wrote:You seem to be confusing accommodation with affirmative action.

Explain why it's included in here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmativ ... al_history


Because the people who made that wiki page were over inclusive and dumped links to every civil rights related bill into affirmative action.
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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:33 pm

greed and death wrote:When people are criticizing affirmative action, they are not boarding complaining about the civil rights act, or equal access to jobs.

When people complain about affirmative action they are talking about Section 8 (a ) business, or the university admission practices that were at issue in Grutter v. Bollinger, 539 U.S. 306 (2003).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutter_v._Bollinger

The term affirmative action used above is so common place, that when used, it is assumed to be used in the narrow sense I have described above.

Ensuring that African Americans and the disabled are not prevented from accessing public facilities is not what people mean when they affirmative action in the current common meaning of the term, attempts to suggest those seeking end "Affirmative Action" wish to close public facilities to minorities is a total misrepresentation of their argument.


What in the world are you talking about? I clarified what Wikki was talking about. This has nothing to do with what I posted.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:35 pm

greed and death wrote:
Norstal wrote:Explain why it's included in here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmativ ... al_history


Because the people who made that wiki page were over inclusive and dumped links to every civil rights related bill into affirmative action.


http://www.dol.gov/odep/pubs/fact/laws.htm

Section 501 of the Rehabilitation Act prohibits federal employers from discriminating against qualified individuals with disabilities and requires them to take affirmative action to employ and advance in employment qualified individuals with disabilities.


Section 503 of the Rehabilitation Act prohibits employment discrimination based on disability and requires affirmative action in the hiring, placement and advancement of people with disabilities by federal contractors or subcontractors who have federal contracts or subcontracts in excess of $10,000.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:39 pm

Neo Art wrote:You. Are. Horrible at this. Really, I lack the necessary vocabulary to convey just how truly, truly bad this argument is.


I find that analogy to be very fitting with regards to affirmative action, only replace the concept of GPA redistribution with college admissions and employment opportunities. Affirmative action is inherently reverse discrimination.
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Sdaeriji
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Postby Sdaeriji » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:54 pm

Saiwania wrote:
Neo Art wrote: Because I recognize that I already have significant benefits merely by being present in that demographic. And as an intellectually and ethically honest person, I support policies that seek to end advantages (or disadvantages) acquired merely by virtue of ones own race gender, religion, or sexuality. In fact, any person claiming to be moral is ethically REQUIRED to do so, even if doing so places him at a disadvantage. It's what ethical people do.


So in other words, you would be for taking grades away from an A student to give to an F student so that they both get C averages as a matter of being "fair" or "ethical"?


What a catastrophically terrible post.

Did the A student get their grades "merely by virtue of ones own race, gender, religion or sexuality"? Did the F student?
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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:04 pm

Sdaeriji wrote:What a catastrophically terrible post.
Did the A student get their grades "merely by virtue of ones own race, gender, religion or sexuality"? Did the F student?


Can you prove that forcing businesses and colleges to promote people from disadvantaged groups doesn't cause any detriment to the majority group?

No? Then it is reverse discrimination and should be done away with. Rather than pretending that some ethnic groups are perpetual victims, how about we don't give anyone any benefits for being a specific race, gender, religion, etc.?
Last edited by Saiwania on Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Sdaeriji
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Postby Sdaeriji » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:09 pm

Saiwania wrote:
Sdaeriji wrote:What a catastrophically terrible post.
Did the A student get their grades "merely by virtue of ones own race, gender, religion or sexuality"? Did the F student?


Can you prove that forcing businesses and colleges to promote people from disadvantaged groups doesn't cause any detriment to the majority group?

No? Then it is reverse discrimination and should be done away with. Rather than pretending that some groups are perpetual victims, how about we don't give any groups any benefits for being a specific race, gender, religion, etc.


I am really, really trying to figure out how this is relevant to what I asked, but I just can't do it.
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Farnhamia wrote:four-letter word "Rules"

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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:15 pm

Sdaeriji wrote:I am really, really trying to figure out how this is relevant to what I asked, but I just can't do it.


Do you not see that GPA redistribution uses the same principle of "fairness" as affirmative action? The F students are academically or intellectually disadvantaged compared to A students, so the A students need to be penalized in order to give benefits to the F students.
Last edited by Saiwania on Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sdaeriji
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Postby Sdaeriji » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:17 pm

Saiwania wrote:
Sdaeriji wrote:I am really, really trying to figure out how this is relevant to what I asked, but I just can't do it.


Do you not see that GPA redistribution uses the same principle of "fairness" as affirmative action? The F students are academically or intellectually disadvantaged compared to A students, so the A students need to be punished in order to give benefits to the F students.


You seem to be arguing with someone, but it doesn't look like it's me, because this still has no relevance to the question I asked you. I'll repost it, to help you out.

"Did the A student get their grades "merely by virtue of ones own race, gender, religion or sexuality"? Did the F student?"
Farnhamia wrote:What part of the four-letter word "Rules" are you having trouble with?
Farnhamia wrote:four-letter word "Rules"

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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:24 pm

Sdaeriji wrote:You seem to be arguing with someone, but it doesn't look like it's me, because this still has no relevance to the question I asked you. I'll repost it, to help you out.

"Did the A student get their grades "merely by virtue of ones own race, gender, religion or sexuality"? Did the F student?"


Prove to me that a business will hire you just for being for example, a White Christian male? A company will hire whoever is most qualified for the job, yet costs the least amount of money to employ regardless of race, gender, religion, or sexuality.
Last edited by Saiwania on Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Steel Magnolia
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Postby The Steel Magnolia » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:26 pm

Saiwania wrote:
Sdaeriji wrote:You seem to be arguing with someone, but it doesn't look like it's me, because this still has no relevance to the question I asked you. I'll repost it, to help you out.

"Did the A student get their grades "merely by virtue of ones own race, gender, religion or sexuality"? Did the F student?"


Prove to me that a business will hire you just for being for example, a White Christian male? A company will hire whoever is most qualified for the job, yet costs the least amount of money to employ regardless of race, gender, religion, or sexuality.


Well actually...
Last edited by The Steel Magnolia on Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sdaeriji
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Postby Sdaeriji » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:26 pm

Saiwania wrote:
Sdaeriji wrote:You seem to be arguing with someone, but it doesn't look like it's me, because this still has no relevance to the question I asked you. I'll repost it, to help you out.

"Did the A student get their grades "merely by virtue of ones own race, gender, religion or sexuality"? Did the F student?"


Prove to me that a business will hire you just for being for example, a White Christian male? A company will hire whoever is most qualified for the job, yet costs the least amount of money to employ regardless of race, gender, religion, or sexuality.


I know the study that sent out identical CVs with black names and white names has already been posted in this thread, so I'm not going to prove to you what has already been proven to you. Are you going to answer my simple question?
Farnhamia wrote:What part of the four-letter word "Rules" are you having trouble with?
Farnhamia wrote:four-letter word "Rules"

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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:32 pm

Sdaeriji wrote:I know the study that sent out identical CVs with black names and white names has already been posted in this thread, so I'm not going to prove to you what has already been proven to you. Are you going to answer my simple question?


And if the US were a majority black nation, people with white names would be hired much less than people with black names. I fail to see how affirmative action has any real effect on that. Ethnic minorities are at a disadvantage because they are a minority, and not because they are inferior.
Last edited by Saiwania on Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Neo Art
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Postby Neo Art » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:33 pm

Sdaeriji wrote:
What a catastrophically terrible post.

Did the A student get their grades "merely by virtue of ones own race, gender, religion or sexuality"? Did the F student?


It's somewhat disconcerning that this actually needs to be pointed out, isn't it?
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Postby United Dependencies » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:33 pm

Saiwania wrote:And if the US were a majority black nation, people with white names would be hired much less than people with black names. I fail to see how affirmative action would solve that.

What exactly do you think affirmative action does?

How do you think it works?
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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:34 pm

Saiwania wrote:And if the US were a majority black nation, people with white names would be hired much less than people with black names. I fail to see how affirmative action would solve that.

Way to completely ignore the point of the study.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Sdaeriji
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Postby Sdaeriji » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:34 pm

Saiwania wrote:
Sdaeriji wrote:I know the study that sent out identical CVs with black names and white names has already been posted in this thread, so I'm not going to prove to you what has already been proven to you. Are you going to answer my simple question?


And if the US were a majority black nation, people with white names would be hired much less than people with black names. I fail to see how affirmative action would solve that.


You're not even disagreeing with me anymore.
Farnhamia wrote:What part of the four-letter word "Rules" are you having trouble with?
Farnhamia wrote:four-letter word "Rules"

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Neo Art
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Postby Neo Art » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:34 pm

Saiwania wrote:
Sdaeriji wrote:I know the study that sent out identical CVs with black names and white names has already been posted in this thread, so I'm not going to prove to you what has already been proven to you. Are you going to answer my simple question?


And if the US were a majority black nation, people with white names would be hired much less than people with black names. I fail to see how affirmative action would solve that.


......wow.

Please god tell me you're not for real. Please. I refuse to believe this isn't a joke. It's humanly impossible for this to be for real.
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Neo Art
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Postby Neo Art » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:35 pm

Sdaeriji wrote:
Saiwania wrote:
And if the US were a majority black nation, people with white names would be hired much less than people with black names. I fail to see how affirmative action would solve that.


You're not even disagreeing with me anymore.


It's rare when I see a thread where "who the fuck are you talking to?" is actually brought out on so many valid occassions.
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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:46 pm

United Dependencies wrote:What exactly do you think affirmative action does? How do you think it works?


I believe that affirmative action is giving scholarships, college admissions, or job offers to ethnic minorities just for being x race/preferred group at the expense of a white applicant who is otherwise just as qualified or more so.
Last edited by Saiwania on Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:51 pm

Saiwania wrote:
United Dependencies wrote:What exactly do you think affirmative action does? How do you think it works?


I believe that affirmative action is giving scholarships, college admissions, or job offers to ethnic minorities just for being x race/preferred group at the expense of a white applicant who is otherwise just as qualified or more so.


Both of these have been ruled by the Supreme Court to be unacceptable. So that's two out of your three claims being bullshit. There are minority based scholarships, however those are private.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Sdaeriji
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Postby Sdaeriji » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:52 pm

Saiwania wrote:
United Dependencies wrote:What exactly do you think affirmative action does? How do you think it works?


I believe that affirmative action is giving scholarships, college admissions, or job offers to ethnic minorities just for being x race/preferred group at the expense of a white applicant who is otherwise just as qualified or more so.


You believe incorrectly.
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The Reasonable
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Postby The Reasonable » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:35 pm

So the general impression I've been getting is that affirmative action as a principle is all about ending discrimination and not reverse discrimination, which was what I figured at the beginning, but I still think that race should never be considered as a factor for any job or college position. Should minorities receive access to better education? No doubt. Should minorities receive more advertising in terms of jobs and college opportunities than they currently do? Absolutely. That's what someone who truly cared about racial equality would do, but considering race as a factor for anything is a crutch and not even truly helping those formerly oppressed minorities.

In the words of Martin Luther King, Jr., "I have a dream...that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

I'd like to thank those of you who contributed for bringing insights and facts onto the forum.
Last edited by The Reasonable on Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Zephie
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Postby Zephie » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:09 pm

I believe in Affirmative action. I think an equal amount of each race should be hired at a workplace despite how well they can perform the duties of the position. Doing this without discriminating of course.
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Free Soviets
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Postby Free Soviets » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:11 pm

The Reasonable wrote:In the words of Martin Luther King, Jr...

"A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for him, in order to equip him to compete on a just and equal basis."

he did write a few books, you know.

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