Affirmative Action

[Greed and Death]

You seem to be confusing accommodation with affirmative action.

Explain why it's included in here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmativ ... al_history

Because the people who made that wiki page were over inclusive and dumped links to every civil rights related bill into affirmative action.

[Mavorpen]

When people are criticizing affirmative action, they are not boarding complaining about the civil rights act, or equal access to jobs.

When people complain about affirmative action they are talking about Section 8 (a ) business, or the university admission practices that were at issue in Grutter v. Bollinger, 539 U.S. 306 (2003).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutter_v._Bollinger

The term affirmative action used above is so common place, that when used, it is assumed to be used in the narrow sense I have described above.

Ensuring that African Americans and the disabled are not prevented from accessing public facilities is not what people mean when they affirmative action in the current common meaning of the term, attempts to suggest those seeking end "Affirmative Action" wish to close public facilities to minorities is a total misrepresentation of their argument.

What in the world are you talking about? I clarified what Wikki was talking about. This has nothing to do with what I posted.

[Mavorpen]

Explain why it's included in here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmativ ... al_history

Because the people who made that wiki page were over inclusive and dumped links to every civil rights related bill into affirmative action.

http://www.dol.gov/odep/pubs/fact/laws.htm

Section 501 of the Rehabilitation Act prohibits federal employers from discriminating against qualified individuals with disabilities and requires them to take affirmative action to employ and advance in employment qualified individuals with disabilities.

Section 503 of the Rehabilitation Act prohibits employment discrimination based on disability and requires affirmative action in the hiring, placement and advancement of people with disabilities by federal contractors or subcontractors who have federal contracts or subcontracts in excess of $10,000.

[Saiwania]

You. Are. Horrible at this. Really, I lack the necessary vocabulary to convey just how truly, truly bad this argument is.

I find that analogy to be very fitting with regards to affirmative action, only replace the concept of GPA redistribution with college admissions and employment opportunities. Affirmative action is inherently reverse discrimination.

[Sdaeriji]

Because I recognize that I already have significant benefits merely by being present in that demographic. And as an intellectually and ethically honest person, I support policies that seek to end advantages (or disadvantages) acquired merely by virtue of ones own race gender, religion, or sexuality. In fact, any person claiming to be moral is ethically REQUIRED to do so, even if doing so places him at a disadvantage. It's what ethical people do.

So in other words, you would be for taking grades away from an A student to give to an F student so that they both get C averages as a matter of being "fair" or "ethical"?

What a catastrophically terrible post.

Did the A student get their grades "merely by virtue of ones own race, gender, religion or sexuality"? Did the F student?

[Saiwania]

What a catastrophically terrible post.
Did the A student get their grades "merely by virtue of ones own race, gender, religion or sexuality"? Did the F student?

Can you prove that forcing businesses and colleges to promote people from disadvantaged groups doesn't cause any detriment to the majority group?

No? Then it is reverse discrimination and should be done away with. Rather than pretending that some ethnic groups are perpetual victims, how about we don't give anyone any benefits for being a specific race, gender, religion, etc.?

[Sdaeriji]

What a catastrophically terrible post.
Did the A student get their grades "merely by virtue of ones own race, gender, religion or sexuality"? Did the F student?

Can you prove that forcing businesses and colleges to promote people from disadvantaged groups doesn't cause any detriment to the majority group?

No? Then it is reverse discrimination and should be done away with. Rather than pretending that some groups are perpetual victims, how about we don't give any groups any benefits for being a specific race, gender, religion, etc.

I am really, really trying to figure out how this is relevant to what I asked, but I just can't do it.

[Saiwania]

I am really, really trying to figure out how this is relevant to what I asked, but I just can't do it.

Do you not see that GPA redistribution uses the same principle of "fairness" as affirmative action? The F students are academically or intellectually disadvantaged compared to A students, so the A students need to be penalized in order to give benefits to the F students.

[Sdaeriji]

I am really, really trying to figure out how this is relevant to what I asked, but I just can't do it.

Do you not see that GPA redistribution uses the same principle of "fairness" as affirmative action? The F students are academically or intellectually disadvantaged compared to A students, so the A students need to be punished in order to give benefits to the F students.

You seem to be arguing with someone, but it doesn't look like it's me, because this still has no relevance to the question I asked you. I'll repost it, to help you out.

"Did the A student get their grades "merely by virtue of ones own race, gender, religion or sexuality"? Did the F student?"

[Saiwania]

You seem to be arguing with someone, but it doesn't look like it's me, because this still has no relevance to the question I asked you. I'll repost it, to help you out.

"Did the A student get their grades "merely by virtue of ones own race, gender, religion or sexuality"? Did the F student?"

Prove to me that a business will hire you just for being for example, a White Christian male? A company will hire whoever is most qualified for the job, yet costs the least amount of money to employ regardless of race, gender, religion, or sexuality.

[The Steel Magnolia]

You seem to be arguing with someone, but it doesn't look like it's me, because this still has no relevance to the question I asked you. I'll repost it, to help you out.

"Did the A student get their grades "merely by virtue of ones own race, gender, religion or sexuality"? Did the F student?"

Prove to me that a business will hire you just for being for example, a White Christian male? A company will hire whoever is most qualified for the job, yet costs the least amount of money to employ regardless of race, gender, religion, or sexuality.

Well actually...

[Sdaeriji]

You seem to be arguing with someone, but it doesn't look like it's me, because this still has no relevance to the question I asked you. I'll repost it, to help you out.

"Did the A student get their grades "merely by virtue of ones own race, gender, religion or sexuality"? Did the F student?"

Prove to me that a business will hire you just for being for example, a White Christian male? A company will hire whoever is most qualified for the job, yet costs the least amount of money to employ regardless of race, gender, religion, or sexuality.

I know the study that sent out identical CVs with black names and white names has already been posted in this thread, so I'm not going to prove to you what has already been proven to you. Are you going to answer my simple question?

[Saiwania]

I know the study that sent out identical CVs with black names and white names has already been posted in this thread, so I'm not going to prove to you what has already been proven to you. Are you going to answer my simple question?

And if the US were a majority black nation, people with white names would be hired much less than people with black names. I fail to see how affirmative action has any real effect on that. Ethnic minorities are at a disadvantage because they are a minority, and not because they are inferior.

[Neo Art]

What a catastrophically terrible post.

Did the A student get their grades "merely by virtue of ones own race, gender, religion or sexuality"? Did the F student?

It's somewhat disconcerning that this actually needs to be pointed out, isn't it?

[United Dependencies]

And if the US were a majority black nation, people with white names would be hired much less than people with black names. I fail to see how affirmative action would solve that.

What exactly do you think affirmative action does?

How do you think it works?

[Mavorpen]

And if the US were a majority black nation, people with white names would be hired much less than people with black names. I fail to see how affirmative action would solve that.

Way to completely ignore the point of the study.

[Sdaeriji]

I know the study that sent out identical CVs with black names and white names has already been posted in this thread, so I'm not going to prove to you what has already been proven to you. Are you going to answer my simple question?

And if the US were a majority black nation, people with white names would be hired much less than people with black names. I fail to see how affirmative action would solve that.

You're not even disagreeing with me anymore.

[Neo Art]

I know the study that sent out identical CVs with black names and white names has already been posted in this thread, so I'm not going to prove to you what has already been proven to you. Are you going to answer my simple question?

And if the US were a majority black nation, people with white names would be hired much less than people with black names. I fail to see how affirmative action would solve that.

......wow.

Please god tell me you're not for real. Please. I refuse to believe this isn't a joke. It's humanly impossible for this to be for real.

[Neo Art]

And if the US were a majority black nation, people with white names would be hired much less than people with black names. I fail to see how affirmative action would solve that.

You're not even disagreeing with me anymore.

It's rare when I see a thread where "who the fuck are you talking to?" is actually brought out on so many valid occassions.

[Saiwania]

What exactly do you think affirmative action does? How do you think it works?

I believe that affirmative action is giving scholarships, college admissions, or job offers to ethnic minorities just for being x race/preferred group at the expense of a white applicant who is otherwise just as qualified or more so.

[Mavorpen]

What exactly do you think affirmative action does? How do you think it works?

I believe that affirmative action is giving scholarships, college admissions, or job offers to ethnic minorities just for being x race/preferred group at the expense of a white applicant who is otherwise just as qualified or more so.

Both of these have been ruled by the Supreme Court to be unacceptable. So that's two out of your three claims being bullshit. There are minority based scholarships, however those are private.

[Sdaeriji]

What exactly do you think affirmative action does? How do you think it works?

I believe that affirmative action is giving scholarships, college admissions, or job offers to ethnic minorities just for being x race/preferred group at the expense of a white applicant who is otherwise just as qualified or more so.

You believe incorrectly.

[The Reasonable]

So the general impression I've been getting is that affirmative action as a principle is all about ending discrimination and not reverse discrimination, which was what I figured at the beginning, but I still think that race should never be considered as a factor for any job or college position. Should minorities receive access to better education? No doubt. Should minorities receive more advertising in terms of jobs and college opportunities than they currently do? Absolutely. That's what someone who truly cared about racial equality would do, but considering race as a factor for anything is a crutch and not even truly helping those formerly oppressed minorities.

In the words of Martin Luther King, Jr., "I have a dream...that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

I'd like to thank those of you who contributed for bringing insights and facts onto the forum.

[Zephie]

I believe in Affirmative action. I think an equal amount of each race should be hired at a workplace despite how well they can perform the duties of the position. Doing this without discriminating of course.

[Free Soviets]

In the words of Martin Luther King, Jr...

"A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for him, in order to equip him to compete on a just and equal basis."

he did write a few books, you know.