Affirmative Action

[Cameroi]

Why doesn't anyone think of Poor Johnny C-?

"Johnny C-" is not entitled to an education that he's not qualified to receive.

there is no such thing as qualification to receive education. all knowledge is an absolute right to anyone and everyone who might wish to seek it.

[Skywarp]

It took THREE WHOLE PAGES for someone to trot this one out?

For shame NSG, for shame!

I mean, really, it's a completely meaningless phrase devoid of even the slightest bit of substance or intellectual nuance, but it's such an old chestnut someone usually could be counted on to leap on that grenade on page 1.

Note: Truth takes one sentence. Bullshit takes three.

You're wrong, the truth consisted of three in this case, whereas lying bullshit consisted of one.

[Occupied Deutschland]

White =\= privileged.

Of fucking course it does.

No, it really doesn't.

White people tend to have a greater percentage of folks who are privileged, but it's certainly not on a 1-1 basis.

That dude is privileged. His children are going to be privileged too.

[Norsklow]

Affirmative action does not consider wealth. It considers sex, gender, race, and ethnicity. So I don't know what the relevance here.

Okay, look.

Those groups, regardless of wealth, have an advantage over others. So a poor white male might have more trouble affording a college than a middle class African American woman based on things that have no importance to education.

I think that's unfair.

Give them both the same SAT.
Shut the looser out.
That's fair.

[Birkinghamia]

"Johnny C-" is not entitled to an education that he's not qualified to receive.

He's not "qualified"? Someone is deciding he isn't "worth" it? Someone in a room somewhere decides that because of some characteristic of him, he doesn't get to go to Harvard?

Sounds a WHOLE lot like discrimination to me. Weren't you beating that particular drum just a few moments ago?

So the college should pay that money out of their pocket so someone can get an education they're clearly unqualified for?

So, by your argument, getting turned down after applying for a job is also discrimination, regardless of qualification.

[Big Jim P]

Note: Truth takes one sentence. Bullshit takes three.

You're wrong, the truth consisted of three in this case, whereas lying bullshit consisted of one.

Care to refute the statement then?

[Birkinghamia]

Okay, look.

Those groups, regardless of wealth, have an advantage over others. So a poor white male might have more trouble affording a college than a middle class African American woman based on things that have no importance to education.

I think that's unfair.

Give them both the same SAT.
Shit the looser out.
That's fair.

That works, too.

[Seperates]

Of fucking course it does.

No, it really doesn't.

White people tend to have a greater percentage of folks who are privileged, but it's certainly not on a 1-1 basis.

That dude is privileged. His children are going to be privileged too.

In terms of culture and view-point... yes. It does.

[Birkinghamia]

White =\= privileged.

Of fucking course it does.

Based on what?

[Neo Art]

So the college should pay that money out of their pocket so someone can get an education they're clearly unqualified for?

I am not sure who you think should determine who is qualified to receive a college education, other than the college.

So, by your argument, getting turned down after applying for a job is also discrimination, regardless of qualification.

I'm glad you can keep up. That's exactly what I'm saying. Now let's see if you can make that extra step and discern what point I'm making with that.

[Fluffy Coyotes]

yeah, and? women are just as deserving as anyone else of being treated fairly. since we have yet to achieve equity even between white women and white men, its not like we can hold the higher rate of improvement for white women over other groups against them. if anything, this is an argument for strengthening our affirmative action plans.

EVIDENCE!
if your status as a white woman gave you that advantage vis a vis other groups - not white - then I say it is high time that such white women were given the dirtiest end of the stick.
It is time to hold that EXACTLY against the likes of you.

Affirmative action is just a play between 2 white groups - at the expense of everyone else.


Nothing but municipal socialism.

That's an insult to socialism. At least socialism focuses on whether or not someone is poor, rather than their sex or their race.

[Neo Art]

Of fucking course it does.

No, it really doesn't.

White people tend to have a greater percentage of folks who are privileged, but it's certainly not on a 1-1 basis.

That dude is privileged. His children are going to be privileged too.

Your refutation is a literally one in a million exception? Really?

Wow.

[Norstal]

Okay, look.

Those groups, regardless of wealth, have an advantage over others. So a poor white male might have more trouble affording a college than a middle class African American woman based on things that have no importance to education.

I think that's unfair.

I think he's arguing that it should ONLY consider wealth/income instead of considering sex, race and ethnicity.

Because weighting people greater for what sex, race, or ethnicity they are is all kinds of fucked up.

Do you guys think that civil rights legislation is just one monolithic, overly long bills?

I'll warn you beforehand that I'm not a lawyer so you should take my words with a spoonful of salt, but we have three major things concerning civil rights: Disabilities (health problems etc.), social (such as race, sex, preference, etc.), and economic. Affirmative action deals with things such as race, sex, preference, etc. The Disability Act protects, well, the disabled. Taking out one or two of the former does not help anyone who are economically disadvantaged.

I'll note that we have a lot of legislation protecting the poor in the form of Pell Grants and other things like that, in that we don't have one sole legislation protecting the poor, but in no way shape or form does eliminating affirmative action or the disability act helps anyone.

Really it amazes me that anyone would make such an argument. It's like back in 2010 when people still clamor against gay rights by saying, "Y U NO FOCUS ON ECONOMY?"

Guys. We can do all of that.

[Rebelillon]

I am 100% against Affermative Action the government should not be allowed to hire a less qualified person simply because of there race or gender

But in Reality thats what happens

[Saiwania]

Speaking as a white male... yes. Yes it does.

Speaking as a white male, no. There is no such privilege. I have never had any easy time obtaining a job. Whites are also rapidly becoming a minority even in predominately white nations; due to lower birth rates than immigrants who predominately come from non-White countries.

[Seperates]

Of fucking course it does.

Based on what?

Based on the fact that I can go walking down the street at night and people won't randomly walk across the street so that they are on the opposite sidewalk, while my roommate (who is black, but otherwise of the same stature and build) can't walk down the same street without somebody randomly crossing the street.

[Birkinghamia]

So the college should pay that money out of their pocket so someone can get an education they're clearly unqualified for?

I am not sure who you think should determine who is qualified to receive a college education, other than the college.

You were arguing the whole time that that was "unfair".

So, I guess you concede.

So, by your argument, getting turned down after applying for a job is also discrimination, regardless of qualification.

I'm glad you can keep up. That's exactly what I'm saying. Now let's see if you can make that extra step and discern what point I'm making with that.

Yes.

And I disagree.

[Occupied Deutschland]

No, it really doesn't.

White people tend to have a greater percentage of folks who are privileged, but it's certainly not on a 1-1 basis.

That dude is privileged. His children are going to be privileged too.

Your refutation is a literally one in a million exception? Really?

Wow.

*shrug* That one-in-a-million exception is still going to receive the benefits of affirmative action, along with his children. How about we pursue the entirely reasonable policy of attaching these benefits to one's family's income level so we don't have ANY one in a million exceptions and the underprivileged folks get the help they "need" instead of handing it out like goodies based on sex or ethnic/racial lineage? Or are minorities not good enough to compete with poor white people for positions?

[Mavorpen]

Speaking as a white male... yes. Yes it does.

Speaking as a white male, no. There is no such privilege. I have never had any easy time obtaining a job. Whites are also rapidly becoming a minority even in predominately white nations due to lower birth rates than immigrants.

And yet whites make up the majority of my university.

[Neo Art]

I have never had any easy time obtaining a job.

How, exactly, do you know that?

The fact is, this pathetic mangling of an argument has so been beaten to death, I can actually find something I already posted addressing it (subject of male privlege not white privilege, but the concept remains the same). I literally don't have to change a single word of what I said MONTHS ago.

You're COMPLETELY unoriginal.

Moreover, this kind of argument is not only nonsensical, it’s borderline farcical. There’s no reasonable way to answer any of this, because it implies that people interact with men in such a way as to go “by the way, if you were a woman, I would have totally slapped your ass by now”.

We don’t’ know if you’ve ever gotten a job interview because you’re a man, that you wouldn’t have gotten as a woman. We don’t know if you’ve ever been offered a job that you wouldn’t have been offered if you were a woman. We don’t know if you’ve ever received more money for that job than you would have if you were a woman. We don’t know if you’ve ever been offered a promotion that you would not have been offered if you were a woman. We don’t know how interactions you’ve received would have been different, if you were a woman.

And we can never tell these things on an individual basis. All we can tell is that they occur in the aggregate. We know the impacts of sexism in society. We can point to the effects of it

Which individual person does it impact? That’s harder to say. Despite some obviously nonsensical idea that the villains twirl their mustaches and laugh maniacally, there’s almost no way to point out any specific individual that promotes the subtle sexism that supports male privilege. But it exists. And maybe you benefitted from it, and maybe not. The biggest problem with it is, we don’t know.

[Norsklow]

EVIDENCE!
if your status as a white woman gave you that advantage vis a vis other groups - not white - then I say it is high time that such white women were given the dirtiest end of the stick.
It is time to hold that EXACTLY against the likes of you.

Affirmative action is just a play between 2 white groups - at the expense of everyone else.


Nothing but municipal socialism.

That's an insult to socialism. At least socialism focuses on whether or not someone is poor, rather than their sex or their race.

If so, so what? Socialism cannot be condemned severely enough as long as it has one adherent.

Have a wiki-pizza-slice

Municipal socialism’ became an avenue that Labour used to retain the allegiance of the new labour aristocracy from the public sector. Many jobs and ‘non-jobs’ were given to this already privileged layer as the left feathered its own nest.

[Birkinghamia]

Based on what?

Based on the fact that I can go walking down the street at night and people won't randomly walk across the street so that they are on the opposite sidewalk, while my roommate (who is black, but otherwise of the same stature and build) can't walk down the same street without somebody randomly crossing the street.

The problem with your argument is that you're fitting everyone into a neat little box.

Society just isn't like that.

[Mavorpen]

Your refutation is a literally one in a million exception? Really?

Wow.

*shrug* That one-in-a-million exception is still going to receive the benefits of affirmative action, along with his children. How about we pursue the entirely reasonable policy of attaching these benefits to one's family's income level so we don't have ANY one in a million exceptions and the underprivileged folks get the help they "need" instead of handing it out like goodies based on sex or ethnic/racial lineage? Or are minorities not good enough to compete with poor white people for positions?

To quote the girl in the taco commercials, why can't we have both?

[Neo Art]

You were arguing the whole time that that was "unfair".

You seem lost, perhaps a nap? Might help.

So, I guess you concede.

And I disagree.

I know you do. You're wrong.

Are you under some silly notion that all opinions are valuable and yours needs some degree of validation simply because you believe in it? Lots of people believe in all sorts of damned silly things, you're no exception. Not all beliefs are equally valid.

[Norstal]

Your refutation is a literally one in a million exception? Really?

Wow.

*shrug* That one-in-a-million exception is still going to receive the benefits of affirmative action, along with his children. How about we pursue the entirely reasonable policy of attaching these benefits to one's family's income level so we don't have ANY one in a million exceptions and the underprivileged folks get the help they "need" instead of handing it out like goodies based on sex or ethnic/racial lineage? Or are minorities not good enough to compete with poor white people for positions?

I really want to taste this myth of "minorities gets hired automatically." Because so far, I haven't experienced it.