Affirmative Action

[The Reasonable]

This is mainly a US issue, as far as I know. The original intent is to counteract former racial discrimination in schools and the workplace, therefore enforcing equal opportunity. However, controversy arises when specific racial quotas and conditions are brought in, as it then punishes members of non-underrepresented groups despite perhaps higher qualifications. NSG, what is your view on this issue? As an Asian-American, I stand to be harmed by race-based affirmative action, as I will be applying to colleges in the next few months, and think that a better form of enforcing equal opportunity is equal access to high-quality schooling and education as well as financial support for that purpose, but I am willing to hear well-reasoned arguments from either side.

[Yewhohohopia]

A better form of enforcing equal opportunity is equal access to high-quality schooling and education as well as financial support for that purpose, but I am willing to hear well-reasoned arguments from either side.

And how is this equal access supposed to materialise when the academic establishment is nothing like as diverse as the rest of society?

[Hionntach]

Aren't quotas illegal in the US?

Wiki seems to think so.

[Forster Keys]

As far as I'm concerned society has a responsibility to help out those in need regardless of their race.

[Shard_Head]

I have benefitted greatly from affirmative action as a member of the non under-represented group. It's a grand thing.

[Yorkopolis]

It depends on what kind of. The kind of thing people also call "positive discrimination" is something I find hipocrisy; discrimination is never positive, no matter if you discriminate the majority or minority.

[Yewhohohopia]

It depends on what kind of. The kind of thing people also call "positive discrimination" is something I find hipocrisy; discrimination is never positive, no matter if you discriminate the majority or minority.

When you're trying to correct some extremely old prejudices about who does what, maybe it is sometimes positive.

[Norsklow]

Of course, it royally screws those of us who are even more mixed-race than Barack Obama.

We don't even exist.

[Yewhohohopia]

Of course, it royally screws those of us who are even more mixed-race than Barack Obama.

We don't even exist.

If you think being 3/64's Cherokee is even really A Thing, you should probably be disbarred from education for being a tosser.

[Farnhamia]

This is mainly a US issue, as far as I know. The original intent is to counteract former racial discrimination in schools and the workplace, therefore enforcing equal opportunity. However, controversy arises when specific racial quotas and conditions are brought in, as it then punishes members of non-underrepresented groups despite perhaps higher qualifications. NSG, what is your view on this issue? As an Asian-American, I stand to be harmed by race-based affirmative action and therefore am personally against it, as I will be applying to colleges in the next few months, and think that a better form of enforcing equal opportunity is equal access to high-quality schooling and education as well as financial support for that purpose, but I am willing to hear well-reasoned arguments from either side.

The point of Affirmative Action is address historical discrimination. Wiki sayeth, "Some policies adopted as affirmative action, such as racial quotas or gender quotas for collegiate admission, have been criticized as a form of reverse discrimination, and such implementation of affirmative action has been ruled unconstitutional by the majority opinion of Gratz v. Bollinger. Affirmative action as a practice was upheld by the court's decision in Grutter v. Bollinger."

Sounds reasonable to me.

[Coronora]

I believe it's wrong. Whoever is suited for the job, should just get the job. There are racists out there, but why should you have to turn down a highly qualified majority for a less experienced perhaps less competent minority? Just as if the minority is better qualified he should get the job as well. I think it's just a ruse for politicians to get votes by acting like they "care".

[Norsklow]

Of course, it royally screws those of us who are even more mixed-race than Barack Obama.

We don't even exist.

If you think being 3/64's Cherokee is even really A Thing, you should probably be disbarred from education for being a tosser.

So what do you make of those of us whose ancestry is something like 87.5% mixed Asian and African and similar former-oppressed colonials, eh?

Affirmative Action is just another outlet of Municipal Socialism:

Municipal socialism’ became an avenue that Labour used to retain the allegiance of the new labour aristocracy from the public sector. Many jobs and ‘non-jobs’ were given to this already privileged layer as the left feathered its own nest. Spurious community groups, housing schemes, race relations and ethnic minority units for tiny privileged layers of black and Irish people were set up and paid for. They were all designed to foster the interests of those who found jobs and funding through them, with little benefit to those who were really suffering the onslaught of Thatcherism. Even when ‘municipal socialism’ took on a popular and widely supported position, its limitations were quickly exposed. The Fare's Fair dispute of 1982 showed this at an early stage, after the Law Lords overruled an attempt to introduce cheap fares on London transport, and Ken Livingstone's Greater London Council did not make a serious fight of it.

[Ifreann]

Affirmative action is a great idea. Sitting back and doing nothing about sexism, racism, and other forms of prejudice and discrimination is only going to benefit the prejudiced and the discriminators.

---

I believe it's wrong. Whoever is suited for the job, should just get the job. There are racists out there, but why should you have to turn down a highly qualified majority for a less experienced perhaps less competent minority? Just as if the minority is better qualified he should get the job as well. I think it's just a ruse for politicians to get votes by acting like they "care".

Affirmative action only involves giving jobs to less-/unqualified people in the minds of those opposed to it.

[Norsklow]

Affirmative action is a great idea. Sitting back and doing nothing about sexism, racism, and other forms of prejudice and discrimination is only going to benefit the prejudiced and the discriminators.

---

I believe it's wrong. Whoever is suited for the job, should just get the job. There are racists out there, but why should you have to turn down a highly qualified majority for a less experienced perhaps less competent minority? Just as if the minority is better qualified he should get the job as well. I think it's just a ruse for politicians to get votes by acting like they "care".

Affirmative action only involves giving jobs to less-/unqualified people in the minds of those opposed to it.

For whom the Bell curves. I shall accept that argument only once you show me that Affirmative Action in the US does channel the cushy seats to Asian-Americans.

[The Reasonable]

Affirmative action is a great idea. Sitting back and doing nothing about sexism, racism, and other forms of prejudice and discrimination is only going to benefit the prejudiced and the discriminators.

---

I believe it's wrong. Whoever is suited for the job, should just get the job. There are racists out there, but why should you have to turn down a highly qualified majority for a less experienced perhaps less competent minority? Just as if the minority is better qualified he should get the job as well. I think it's just a ruse for politicians to get votes by acting like they "care".

Affirmative action only involves giving jobs to less-/unqualified people in the minds of those opposed to it.

...And this is why you were never the one who managed to convince me of liberal ideas, but rather other, much more understanding people...

Simply put, you always try to insult the opposing argument instead of discussing how it's mistaken. And affirmative action isn't even the best way to deal with entrenched discrimination- the best way is to invest more on education for under-represented minorities so that they may be equally qualified later.

[Inyourfaceistan]

It's a crappy idea.

Why turn down someone more qualified, simply because their race did something bad to someone else's race before? (because that's not inherently just as racist at all)

And secondly, how will you ever achieve a colorblind society if the dirty government keeps finding ways to distinguish the races from one another?

[Mavorpen]

I like it. I'm pretty sure the "quota" thing is illegal, so that's no a valid complaint.

[Ifreann]

Affirmative action is a great idea. Sitting back and doing nothing about sexism, racism, and other forms of prejudice and discrimination is only going to benefit the prejudiced and the discriminators.

---

Affirmative action only involves giving jobs to less-/unqualified people in the minds of those opposed to it.

For whom the Bell curves. I shall accept that argument only once you show me that Affirmative Action in the US does channel the cushy seats to Asian-Americans.

Methinks there has been an error here somewhere.

---

Affirmative action is a great idea. Sitting back and doing nothing about sexism, racism, and other forms of prejudice and discrimination is only going to benefit the prejudiced and the discriminators.

---

Affirmative action only involves giving jobs to less-/unqualified people in the minds of those opposed to it.

...And this is why you were never the one who managed to convince me of liberal ideas, but rather other, much more understanding people...

I'm 100% okay with this.

---

It's a crappy idea.

Why turn down someone more qualified, simply because their race did something bad to someone else's race before? (because that's not inherently just as racist at all)

Because if we didn't do that, all the people flailing around about reverse racism wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

And secondly, how will you ever achieve a colorblind society if the dirty government keeps finding ways to distinguish the races from one another?

There's really no point in pretending that the idea of races doesn't exist. Indeed, it would be harmful for the government to engage in that kind of wilful ignorance, for if they did, how could they protect people from racial discrimination?

[Mavorpen]

It's a crappy idea.

Why turn down someone more qualified, simply because their race did something bad to someone else's race before? (because that's not inherently just as racist at all)

That's not what the idea is.

[Neutraligon]

Doesn't affirmative action mean all things equal the position should go to the person who makes wherever is offering a position more diverse?

[Inyourfaceistan]

It's a crappy idea.

Why turn down someone more qualified, simply because their race did something bad to someone else's race before? (because that's not inherently just as racist at all)

Because if we didn't do that, all the people flailing around about reverse racism wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

And? Why give them a leg to stand on? Why not just look at everyone the same, regardless of their race?

And secondly, how will you ever achieve a colorblind society if the dirty government keeps finding ways to distinguish the races from one another?

There's really no point in pretending that the idea of races doesn't exist. Indeed, it would be harmful for the government to engage in that kind of wilful ignorance, for if they did, how could they protect people from racial discrimination?

It's not their job to protect them from racial discrimation.

It shouldn't be "A black man stole a white mans car" or "a gang of white people beat up a black kid" it should be "A man stole a car" or " a mob attacked a single person"

It's their fucking job to protect freedom and deal fair justice, not give labels and write standards on how people should be treated depending on their skin color.

[Ifreann]

Doesn't affirmative action mean all things equal the position should go to the person who makes wherever is offering a position more diverse?

Among other things. Of course, there's never realistically going to be a case where all other things are equal. Someone's going to make a better impression on an interviewer, even if it's only because of something stupid like a weird subconscious association with the colour of their tie.

[Neutraligon]

Doesn't affirmative action mean all things equal the position should go to the person who makes wherever is offering a position more diverse?

Among other things. Of course, there's never realistically going to be a case where all other things are equal. Someone's going to make a better impression on an interviewer, even if it's only because of something stupid like a weird subconscious association with the colour of their tie.

Being equal in this case does not mean being exactly the same. But I understand what you are saying.

[Farnhamia]

Affirmative action is a great idea. Sitting back and doing nothing about sexism, racism, and other forms of prejudice and discrimination is only going to benefit the prejudiced and the discriminators.

---

Affirmative action only involves giving jobs to less-/unqualified people in the minds of those opposed to it.

...And this is why you were never the one who managed to convince me of liberal ideas, but rather other, much more understanding people...

Simply put, you always try to insult the opposing argument instead of discussing how it's mistaken. And affirmative action isn't even the best way to deal with entrenched discrimination- the best way is to invest more on education for under-represented minorities so that they may be equally qualified later.

More education? In the United States, in this day and age? You go try to get an increase to a school budget passed on the basis of "We need to educate our children to be more accepting of all people," I dare you, you Antii-American multicultural socialist, you.

[Ifreann]

Because if we didn't do that, all the people flailing around about reverse racism wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

And? Why give them a leg to stand on? Why not just look at everyone the same, regardless of their race?

My point is that they don't have a leg to stand on, because affirmative action does not involve giving jobs to people less-/unqualified.

There's really no point in pretending that the idea of races doesn't exist. Indeed, it would be harmful for the government to engage in that kind of wilful ignorance, for if they did, how could they protect people from racial discrimination?

It's not their job to protect them from racial discrimation.

Their job is whatever we, the people, say their job is.

It shouldn't be "A black man stole a white mans car" or "a gang of white people beat up a black kid" it should be "A man stole a car" or " a mob attacked a single person"

And instead of "a man was denied a job because of his race" it would be.....what? Nothing?

It's their fucking job to protect freedom and deal fair justice, not give labels and write standards on how people should be treated depending on their skin color.

Not even when that standard is "The same as everyone else"?