C.S. Lewis's Irrefutable Proof of Christianity (Or God)

[Alyekra]

You can have faith in logic. There. There's your response.

No you can't. That's like saying I have faith the sky is blue.

Maybe the entire human race is color-blind.

[Ashmoria]

http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/801500-mere-christianity
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho ... lewis.html
^^^All from here.

Hey guys, I don't know if you remember me, but I tried using several threads before on very broad topics to try to prove Christianity. That obviously wasn't the best idea, seeing as I had too much to handle, even though it was well supported and true nonetheless.

But I would like to bring NSG's attention to some simple flows of logic that make God (or even Christianity) seem obviously true. I might not be the best debater, but this guy, C.S. Lewis, clearly knew what he was talking about. I want to see if NSG can even begin to approach a way to disprove them. I think you'll find the answer is no; there is no debater on NSG good enough to prove that which is blatantly false. So, here they are, all from C.S. Lewis. Some of them also prove evolution not true.

PLEASE deal with my proof first before you try to bring in unrelated information. But, if you are going to make a claim using that information, PLEASE have a legitimate source.

NUMBER ONE: SILLY BIOCHEMISTRY

If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemistry, and biochemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the trees.

NUMBER TWO: THE WORLD IS NOT A MILK JUG PART 1

Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It’s like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can’t trust my own thinking, of course I can’t trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.

NUMBER THREE: THE WORLD IS NOT A MILK JUG PART 2

If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents – the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else’s. But if their thoughts–i.e., Materialism and Astronomy–are mere accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It’s like expecting the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset.

NUMBER FOUR: YOU CAN'T LEARN FROM JESUS UNLESS YOU BELIEVE HE IS GOD

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

NUMBER FIVE: CHRISTIANS ARE DIFFERENT FROM EVERYONE ELSE

The Christian is in a different position from other people who are trying to be good. They hope, by being good, to please God if there is one; or — if they think there is not — at least they hope to deserve approval from good men. But the Christian thinks any good he does comes from the Christ-life inside him. He does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us; just as the roof of a greenhouse does not attract the sun because it is bright, but becomes bright because the sun shines on it.

And let's not forget how credible C.S. Lewis is. Though, I suppose, if you didn't want to directly address the arguments (like many of you won't) then you could attack his credibility. But I assure, that is just as impossible to do.

Thank you.

oh why bother at this point...

the feeling we have that there must be a "creator" at the center of the universe doesnt mean that there has to be one

if there is a "creator" an "intelligent designer" there is no reason that that has to be "god". it could as easily be more advanced space aliens or something.

if there is a supernatural "creator" there is no reason to believe that that creator is still alive, knows we exist, cares about us, is still involved in directing life on earth, is the judeo/christian/islamic "god".

if the jewish god is this god there is no reason to think that he abandoned his chosen people,and sent his only begotten son (that occurs nowhere in jewish theology) to "save" us.

if jesus was the only begotten son of god sent to save us there is no actual reason to believe that the bible is an accurate record of his life and what he had to say OR that the theology developed from it represents the truth about god, jesus or what they want from us, if anything.

[Ifreann]

Try replicable facts.

FACT: We can't trust our thoughts if they are randomly created by "biochemistry" and "science."

Not a fact.

FACT: The Bible has messages and values that appear in different books, though they are so similar. Thus, God must have had an influence.

Also not a fact.

FACT: All around you, you can see how God is guiding everyone's life.

I see no such thing.

[Silent Majority]

FACT: We can't trust our thoughts if they are randomly created by "biochemistry" and "science."

Why not?

FACT: The Bible has messages and values that appear in different books, though they are so similar. Thus, God must have had an influence.

Or perhaps we discovered through trial and error that certains values make society work better.

FACT: All around you, you can see how God is guiding everyone's life.

Oh please, do elaborate how.

[Wisconsin9]

Try replicable facts.

FACT: We can't trust our thoughts if they are randomly created by "biochemistry" and "science."

FACT: The Bible has messages and values that appear in different books, though they are so similar. Thus, God must have had an influence.

FACT: All around you, you can see how God is guiding everyone's life.

FACT: It's not one.

FACT: The Bible's messages worked their way into every modern piece of literature because of its widespread effect on human culture.

FACT: No, I really can't.

[Avenio]

FACT: We can't trust our thoughts if they are randomly created by "biochemistry" and "science."

If it wasn't for the chemical nature of our brains, antidepressants and many other life-saving drugs wouldn't work.

FACT: All around you, you can see how God is guiding everyone's life.

Again, I've never had a religious experience once in my entire life.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Exactly. Isn't the whole point of Christianity faith - IE stuff that can't be proven, but that you FEEL is right?
Trying to prove Christianity through such thin and pseudo-scientific/philosophical ways isn't only ineffective, it actually cheapens what you're trying to teach.
I recall this same argument was used a few threads ago, and I don't think you responded to it, so I don't anticipate much change.

You can have faith in logic. There. There's your response.

I haven't seen any of that logic emanating from you, in any of your threads.
Practice what you preach, man.

[Condunum]

Try replicable facts.

FACT: We can't trust our thoughts if they are randomly created by "biochemistry" and "science."

FACT: The Bible has messages and values that appear in different books, though they are so similar. Thus, God must have had an influence.

FACT: All around you, you can see how God is guiding everyone's life.

Thoughts are not random.

Lord of thr Rings has messages and values that appear in different books, though they are similar. Thus, Gandalf must have had an influence.

All around you, you can see how physics is in action.

[Risottia]

You can have faith in logic. There. There's your response.

Or you can actually SHOW how logic works and why we humans built it that way. "Believing" used to say my grand-grandmother "is for ignorants". And she only went to school up to the third year.

[Death Metal]

FACT: All around you, you can see how God is guiding everyone's life.

Bullshit.

[Nordengrund]

Not necessarily. The people who wrote it were human. They made mistakes. But there are still clearly consistent messages that appear in lots of places.

They can be possessed by Satan.

Well, the sky is blue

[Madoka Kaname]

FACT: We can't trust our thoughts if they are randomly created by "biochemistry" and "science."

FACT: The Bible has messages and values that appear in different books, though they are so similar. Thus, God must have had an influence.

FACT: All around you, you can see how God is guiding everyone's life.

FACT: I trust my thoughts more than I trust the thought of me being a meat-puppet for god. As far as I can tell, my thoughts are real. As far as I can tell, god never existed, at least certainly not your god.

What if God's voice is actually Satan's voice?

Christians amuse me.

[Menassa]

Guys, while the argument about blasphemy is very clever, I never said CS Lewis is infallible. I called the argument he makes irrefutable, since Christianity is true. I KNOW it is true because I can see how God has affected my life in so many ways, plus the fact that the Bible has consistent values throughout. But I'm trying to find a medium, possibly CS Lewis, through which to convince you guys.

How has God proved that he is the Christian God?

[The Tiger Kingdom]

No you can't. That's like saying I have faith the sky is blue.

Maybe the entire human race is color-blind.

Oh man, let's not get into the old "is the red color I see the red color that YOU see?!" stoner debate.
Not here. NOT LIKE THIS.

[Genivaria]

Threads like this get us nowhere. Atheists will demand proof and Christians will keep on trying to convert them. Where does it end?

It ends when NationStates ends. However, NationStates is as eternal as the AI and the Matrix. It shall never end.

This will be the sixth time we have curb-stomped this OP, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

[Avenio]

I do like that the OP has completely given up defending the tattered shreds of Lewis' arguments, though.

We'll make an atheist out of you yet, OP.

[Risottia]

FACT: We can't trust our thoughts if they are randomly created by "biochemistry" and "science."

Fact: you know nothing about science if you think science "creates". Science "describes".

FACT: The Bible has messages and values that appear in different books, though they are so similar. Thus, God must have had an influence.

Erm... nice non sequitur.

FACT: All around you, you can see how God is guiding everyone's life.

False, for it's not guiding mine.

[Wisconsin9]

It ends when NationStates ends. However, NationStates is as eternal as the AI and the Matrix. It shall never end.

This will be the sixth time we have created this thread, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

Gorram it, they're getting better than we are!

[AETEN II]

*rubs hands together* Oh this is gonna be good.

(Image)

I concur.

And C.S. Lewis was an atheist in the first place. Tolkien convinced him to go through the born again crap.

[Alyekra]

Maybe the entire human race is color-blind.

Oh man, let';s not get into the old "is the red color I see the red color that YOU see?!" stoner debate.
Not here. NOT LIKE THIS. :p

The point is: I don't think it would be unreasonable to assume that he has faith that his senses are giving his brain the correct information

[Condunum]

It ends when NationStates ends. However, NationStates is as eternal as the AI and the Matrix. It shall never end.

This will be the sixth time we have curb-stomped this OP, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

[Madoka Kaname]

No you can't. That's like saying I have faith the sky is blue.

Maybe the entire human race is color-blind.

Then you have to show that they are color blind.

Colors can be mathematically deduced you know.

[Silent Majority]

Guys, while the argument about blasphemy is very clever, I never said CS Lewis is infallible. I called the argument he makes irrefutable, since Christianity is true. I KNOW it is true because I can see how God has affected my life in so many ways, plus the fact that the Bible has consistent values throughout. But I'm trying to find a medium, possibly CS Lewis, through which to convince you guys.

How has God proved that he is the Christian God?

He told Michele Bachmann

[Risottia]

They can be possessed by Satan.

Well, the sky is blue

It depends.

[LogiChristianity]

FACT: All around you, you can see how God is guiding everyone's life.

Bullshit.

Source?