Where do you think the Soviet state got its revenues from?
Besides, there was clearly a de facto profit motive for the state owned firms' managers, who as a class engaged in semi legal rent-seeking, and graft from their positions.
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by Trotskylvania » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:44 pm
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in Posadism"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga
by Mavorpen » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:46 pm
Trotskylvania wrote:Mavorpen wrote:State Capitalism requites a profit motive. That doesn't refute Sibirsky in any way.
Where do you think the Soviet state got its revenues from?
Besides, there was clearly a de facto profit motive for the state owned firms' managers, who as a class engaged in semi legal rent-seeking, and graft from their positions.
by 4years » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:47 pm
Sibirsky wrote:4years wrote: I was not trying to refute him I was trying to make him understand what he is talking about and it was a refernce to Sibirsky telling me to google socialism when the defination if socialism would support my point not Sibirsky's. Anyway ,soviet enterprises did have profit motive.
They did not. That is partially why the nation was poor, and why the entire economy collapsed.
by 4years » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:49 pm
Sibirsky wrote:4years wrote: Google state capitalism.
Fine.
"The term state capitalism has various meanings, but is usually described as commercial (profit-seeking) economic activity undertaken by the state with management of the productive forces in a capitalist manner, even if the state is nominally socialist."
What part of "there was no profit motive" did you miss?
by 4years » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:51 pm
by Mavorpen » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:51 pm
4years wrote:If there is no profit to be had, not making a profit and therefore being poor would be meaningless. A profit motive stipulates that there is a difference between selling goods and making money and giving goods away. Soviet enterprise sold goods and made money, they failed because they were bad at this and had low quality goods. If there was no profit motive then soviet enterprise could not have collapsed for lack of a profit, profit motive means that you collapse woth no profit therefore you are motivated to make a profit, the only way there is not profit motive is if enterprise can succeed with no profit. The fact that the soviet economy collapsed is proof of profit motive. Incompentence=/=not motivated.
by 4years » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:55 pm
Mavorpen wrote:4years wrote:If there is no profit to be had, not making a profit and therefore being poor would be meaningless. A profit motive stipulates that there is a difference between selling goods and making money and giving goods away. Soviet enterprise sold goods and made money, they failed because they were bad at this and had low quality goods. If there was no profit motive then soviet enterprise could not have collapsed for lack of a profit, profit motive means that you collapse woth no profit therefore you are motivated to make a profit, the only way there is not profit motive is if enterprise can succeed with no profit. The fact that the soviet economy collapsed is proof of profit motive. Incompentence=/=not motivated.
This is better.
by Mavorpen » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:56 pm
by 4years » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:59 pm
by 4years » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:00 pm
by Jedi8246 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:01 pm
4years wrote:
Because on ingorant cartoon explains an entire ideology?
Very well my turn...http://www.toonpool.com/user/856/files/ ... 490585.jpg.
What you didn't think I was going to make it is did you?
Irony. You spelled ignorant wrong.by Death Metal » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:03 pm
by Mavorpen » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:05 pm
According to the system of natural liberty, the sovereign has only three duties to attend to; three duties of great importance, indeed, but plain and intelligible to common understandings: first, the duty of protecting the society from the violence and invasion of other independent societies; secondly, the duty of protecting, as far as possible, every member of the society from the injustice or oppression of every other member of it, or the duty of establishing an exact administration of justice; and, thirdly, the duty of erecting and maintaining certain public works and certain public institutions, which it can never be for the interest of any individual, or small number of individuals, to erect and maintain; because the profit could never repay the expence to any individual, or small number of individuals, though it may frequently do much more than repay it to a great society.
by 4years » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:08 pm
Jedi8246 wrote:4years wrote:Because on ingorant cartoon explains an entire ideology?
Very well my turn...http://www.toonpool.com/user/856/files/ ... 490585.jpg.
What you didn't think I was going to make it is did you?
Ahem. Your cartoon has nothing to do with capitalism. My cartoon is pretty representative of what socialism is.
by Death Metal » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:08 pm
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