No more meat?

[L Ron Cupboard]

I was watching a nature documentary about the ecology of Monterey Bay. Apparently it is so productive because sediment from the sea bed is channeled up an underwater valley upswelling in the bay. Now this is probably a completely mad idea that will be swiftly ridiculed, but could we not increase productivity in other areas of the world by creating similar upswellings artificially? A long pipe with a big fan blade at the end would seem fairly low tech.

it would be far cheaper to mine a mountain flat and sprinkle it on the ocean.

I want to see inland crab farming to go with the fish farming.

I don't see how that would be cheaper or have the same effect.

[Meryuma]

Anyways, can people stop making blanket statements about people being able to survive without meat? It's privileged.

The thing is, I'm pretty sure people (I know I did) specified that this applies to the first world.

I'm in the first world, and I'm allergic to all starch/grain foods, anything with over about 5 grams of refined sugar, and a lot of vegetables. I'm not going to sacrifice my health over some holy cause.

I was watching a nature documentary about the ecology of Monterey Bay. Apparently it is so productive because sediment from the sea bed is channeled up an underwater valley upswelling in the bay. Now this is probably a completely mad idea that will be swiftly ridiculed, but could we not increase productivity in other areas of the world by creating similar upswellings artificially? A long pipe with a big fan blade at the end would seem fairly low tech.

it would be far cheaper to mine a mountain flat and sprinkle it on the ocean.

I want to see inland crab farming to go with the fish farming.

Of course, the solution to problems associated with industrial monoculture is more industrial monoculture.

[Trollgaard]

If meat was taken out of my diet I would die. I would starve to death.

[Turan Federasyonu]

The fact that in the USA the people eat meat doesnt mean anything. İn many countries we are already forced into vegetarianism

[Trollgaard]

The fact that in the USA the people eat meat doesnt mean anything. İn many countries we are already forced into vegetarianism

How and why are you 'forced into vegetarianism'?

[Turan Federasyonu]

The fact that in the USA the people eat meat doesnt mean anything. İn many countries we are already forced into vegetarianism

How and why are you 'forced into vegetarianism'?

How? Very simple. We cannot afford meat, we buy cheaper kinds of food.

[Trollgaard]

How and why are you 'forced into vegetarianism'?

How? Very simple. We cannot afford meat, we buy cheaper kinds of food.

Well that sucks.

[Turan Federasyonu]

How? Very simple. We cannot afford meat, we buy cheaper kinds of food.

Well that sucks.

And I dont speak about marginalized segments of the society, I mention of somehow middle-class urban population

[Poorisolation]

How? Very simple. We cannot afford meat, we buy cheaper kinds of food.

Well that sucks.

Conversely there are regions where meat inclusive diets are the cheapest and in many cases only option to avoid starvation.

Sahel
Lapland

In these regions while there is plant growth there are too few of the kinds digestible by humans to support a sustainable population. One of the problems exhibited in this debate are that the majority of posters come from situations where dietary habits are driven primarily by choice and have little or no experience of any other form of existence.

[Trotskylvania]

There's no way I'm giving up meat.

^ This.

This is an entirely economic argument, so you wouldn't have a choice in the matter. The pressure of prices from supply and demand will ensure, if present trends continue, that meat will be too expensive to be anything but a delicacy. There simply isn't enough freshwater to ensure otherwise.

[Trotskylvania]

Of course, the solution to problems associated with industrial monoculture is more industrial monoculture.

That isn't monoculture, for one. It is a rather deliberate, if crude, way of improving the natural fecundity of a portion of the biosphere. It would be foolish to shun such techniques in any world, especially a world approaching nine billion people.

We can't go back to a pristine wilderness. Instead, our powers should be turned towards increasing biological diversity and the fecundity of nature for the broadest number of species.

[Trollgaard]

^ This.

This is an entirely economic argument, so you wouldn't have a choice in the matter. The pressure of prices from supply and demand will ensure, if present trends continue, that meat will be too expensive to be anything but a delicacy. There simply isn't enough freshwater to ensure otherwise.

That just doesn't seem possible. Meat is so cheap! I can go out and get a McDouble for $1.00. That has two burger patties on it. I can't, or don't want to, imagine a future where the same thing costs what, $100 or more? Is that the type of price increase we're talking about?

[Raeyh]

Well, I always wanted to live in a cyberpunk world. Bring on the soy processing units.

[Krakosov]

why cant we just stop the ameicans from eating so much?
it will help a great deal.

[The Zeonic States]

MEAT LOVERS OF THE WORLD, PREPARE FOR THE MASS SUICIDE AND ORGY IN 2050!

[Trotskylvania]

This is an entirely economic argument, so you wouldn't have a choice in the matter. The pressure of prices from supply and demand will ensure, if present trends continue, that meat will be too expensive to be anything but a delicacy. There simply isn't enough freshwater to ensure otherwise.

That just doesn't seem possible. Meat is so cheap! I can go out and get a McDouble for $1.00. That has two burger patties on it. I can't, or don't want to, imagine a future where the same thing costs what, $100 or more? Is that the type of price increase we're talking about?

It's easy to see why, when you realize that the amount of resources that go into making just the beef patties for that McDouble could yield more than ten times the calories in vegetable matter.

As it stands, the price of grain is enduring some considerable upward pressure, and it is doubtful that we can seriously increase production to match increasing demand. Something is going to have to give. So that means that grain which had previously been used to feed beef cattle or other food animals will have to be used to feed people. The water used to keep them alive will have to be repurposed to more efficient means of calorie production. Since the supply of meat will contract, and presumably the demand will be sticky, the price will increase. Dramatically.

That will continue until population growth stops.

[Terruana]

Your over-use of the edit function and ridiculous strawmen have convinced me utterly. I now agree with everything you've said.

However, you've still failed to answer the basic principle underlying everything I said. Thousands of animals, maybe even millions, die every day so that you can maintain your current lifestyle. Why does the fact that you don't eat any of them make you any better than the rest of us? Do you think the animals that die so that you can argue about vegetarianism on the internet matter less than the ones that go into my steaks and burgers?

What? Have you been reading? At all? It seems you've been ignoring everything I've said up to this point. I'll make them clear for you:

1. I have never claimed that animals do not die due to my lifestyle.
2. I have never claimed to be better than you or anyone that eats meat. I have stated that eating meat is a choice, a choice that we can easily do without in a first world country, which makes it indefensible. Without it, not only would we not be hindered, we would be better off. On the flip side, other things in my lifestyle such as clothing, technology, etc. have a significantly higher necessity. They make things more efficient.
3. I have never claimed that the animals that die due to my computer are any less important than the ones on your plate.

Get this through your head, I have yet to actually deny that my lifestyle contributes to issues that we face. YOU however, have yet to address a crucial point that I made. I asked you why the fact that we do things to harm others should override choosing to minimize that harm or eliminate it? What you are essentially saying is that because we have done bad things, it's perfectly moral to continue to do them. It isn't. I realize this, which is why I am (again) going to college so that I can contribute to solving the problems we face.

Yet again, stop ignoring things I have already said.

You also stated that eating meat is as bad as slavery, thus implying anyone who eats it is as bad as a slaver, and anyone who doesn't, isn't. I'd say that's claiming to be better than the rest of us, wouldn't you?
And considering that on the scale of things, animals dying to be made into food amount to such a tiny proportion of all the living things suffering and dying for things in my life that are also just luxuries, if I was looking to minimise the pain and suffering I caused, I wouldn't start by looking at my diet.

[Raeyh]

why cant we just stop the ameicans from eating so much?
it will help a great deal.

Not really, we have plenty of space for growing food and actually throw away food from overproduction, so it's not the US's fault.

[Trollgaard]

That just doesn't seem possible. Meat is so cheap! I can go out and get a McDouble for $1.00. That has two burger patties on it. I can't, or don't want to, imagine a future where the same thing costs what, $100 or more? Is that the type of price increase we're talking about?

It's easy to see why, when you realize that the amount of resources that go into making just the beef patties for that McDouble could yield more than ten times the calories in vegetable matter.

As it stands, the price of grain is enduring some considerable upward pressure, and it is doubtful that we can seriously increase production to match increasing demand. Something is going to have to give. So that means that grain which had previously been used to feed beef cattle or other food animals will have to be used to feed people. The water used to keep them alive will have to be repurposed to more efficient means of calorie production. Since the supply of meat will contract, and presumably the demand will be sticky, the price will increase. Dramatically.

That will continue until population growth stops.

I understand all that, its just that it hasn't really sunk in until now.

Well, I might as well eat meat while I can. Though I doubt I'll live to see the day when meat is out of my reach.

[Poorisolation]

That just doesn't seem possible. Meat is so cheap! I can go out and get a McDouble for $1.00. That has two burger patties on it. I can't, or don't want to, imagine a future where the same thing costs what, $100 or more? Is that the type of price increase we're talking about?

It's easy to see why, when you realize that the amount of resources that go into making just the beef patties for that McDouble could yield more than ten times the calories in vegetable matter.

No, no and thrice no.

Part of the reason is this stuff cellulose which humans cannot digest but cows and other animals with long guts can. Another part of the reason is that while all cereals are grasses not all grasses are cereals. Cows in particular but other animals too can eat and digest grasses inedible to humans and so can be sustained in regions unsuitable for cereal agriculture.

Thus the resource gap is nowhere near ten times.

That said meat production in America in particular is very inefficient with many cattle being fed on corn (maize) which is extremely silly as farmers are essentially feeding their bullocks (steers) the part of the plant that humans could eat while not feeding them the part of the plant that cattle could digest and humans cannot but the cows would not suffer a huge loss in calorific intake. Worse this practice at this time appears to be spreading.

So yes you ought to expect an upward trend on your McDouble but by how much is hard to quantify, $100 seems a bit high (in today's prices) but anywhere from $5-25 would not make me blink if cited as a prediction, the wide value range being due to the wide range of variables. Still even so much as $5 would price it out of many people's pockets globally.

Edit note: mashed up the links take 3: oh and incoherence

[Pribram]

Food shortages could force world into vegetarianism, warn scientists

Food shortage is nothing i desire but im already vegetarian so i (at least) hope that this will not affect me (so much)

[Srboslavija]

Ugh. A world full of vegetarians?

Come on, comet...

[Yankee Empire]

Maybe if it were distributed evenly but it wouldn't be the more affluent nations would still be getting plenty just not in the needlss excesses we have today.

[Trollgaard]

Maybe if it were distributed evenly but it wouldn't be the more affluent nations would still be getting plenty just not in the needlss excesses we have today.

You would take food from my table? I think not.

[Yankee Empire]

Depends on where you live...