No more meat?

[Zevassa]

Food shortages could force world into vegetarianism, warn scientists

It wouldn't really be forcing anything for me, I only eat meat 0-3 times a week as it is. Vegetarianism is just around the corner anyway.

[Occupied Deutschland]

If meat is the shortage, then maybe try to make it up through seafood farming.

That's a horrible alternative. Fishing is already a major problem.

Which is why fish farms need to be pushed. It's similar to the vat-meat solution.

[Mavorpen]

That's a horrible alternative. Fishing is already a major problem.

Which is why fish farms need to be pushed. It's similar to the vat-meat solution.

What? I included fish farms into "fishing." I thought that was obvious...

[Zevassa]

That's a horrible alternative. Fishing is already a major problem.

Which is why fish farms need to be pushed. It's similar to the vat-meat solution.

Fish Farms are susceptible to weather, especially when located along natural lakes, rivers and streams. The Asian Carp problem in Illinois that Chicago has been fighting (to protect Lake Michigan from infestation) happened as a result of a storm wrecking a carp farm.

[Gideus]

That's a horrible alternative. Fishing is already a major problem.

Which is why fish farms need to be pushed. It's similar to the vat-meat solution.

A "fish factory" is conceivable but vat-grown meat/fish meat is a better alternative in my opinion. Less waste(bones, guts, etc.), no chances of the animals feeling pain, you know... all that good stuff.

[Purpelia]

But meat is a very impormant bit of a balanced diet. I mean sure you can use various suplements and workarounds for it. But that does not mean we don't need it.

We don't need meat. I explained this in a previous post of mine. Rice and beans cover your protein and all the B-vitamins can be obtained from vegetable/fruit/legume/etc. sources or synthetic sources.

I would take any synthetic sources of anything with a grain of salt and avoid them if at all possible.

But meat is a very impormant bit of a balanced diet. I mean sure you can use various suplements and workarounds for it. But that does not mean we don't need it. Furthermore, even if we assume that what you say is correct (since I am in no mood to debate that part) just because something is not necessary does not make it in any way immoral. I mean, we don't need the internet to survive. And the electricity could be better used desalinating water for the poor or what ever. Does that make all our posting here evil?

Meat isn't important in a balanced diet. It's just plain not needed at all. It's not the fact that it isn't necessary, it's the fact that it's unnecessary and it causes suffering to other beings.

So? Just our existance causes suffering to other beings. What about say all the rats and other pest we kill for no reason other than them wanting to survive along side us in our towns and cities? Surely we can spare some of our food for the rats? Or the vast amount of animals we murder each year to maintain our agricultural production?

And no, mass murder of rats and other pests is indeed NOT necessary for our survival. Our ancestors lived quite productive lives even with the plague looming over their shoulders all the time. So what makes the plight of your average human plague victim so special that it justifies the suffering of the thousands of rats killed each day to prevent him getting infected?

I would like a citation for that now. If you don't mind.

That's...literally common sense.

Common sense has no place in an augmented discussion.

Also, what would be the costs of vat growing? And not only in terms of money. Vat grown meat can not be "fed" in a normal way so any nutrients brought to it are going to be from chemical supplements.

Also that article you linked to speaks of how they will try and make an edible burger. In other words meat that has enough of a texture to be edible when minced and fried. I would like to see any evidence they can replicate a decent steak, medium rare. You know, meat where texture actually counts for something.

[Geilinor]

That's a horrible alternative. Fishing is already a major problem.

Which is why fish farms need to be pushed. It's similar to the vat-meat solution.

Many people would choose vegetarianism over vat meat.

[Big Jim P]

Every vegetarian and vegan in the world is sitting back and laughing cruelly at you right now. Or at least one is. Eh, close enough.

Herbivores ARE meat. I'm not too worried.

[Gideus]

We don't need meat. I explained this in a previous post of mine. Rice and beans cover your protein and all the B-vitamins can be obtained from vegetable/fruit/legume/etc. sources or synthetic sources.

I would take any synthetic sources of anything with a grain of salt and avoid them if at all possible.

Meat isn't important in a balanced diet. It's just plain not needed at all. It's not the fact that it isn't necessary, it's the fact that it's unnecessary and it causes suffering to other beings.

So? Just our existance causes suffering to other beings. What about say all the rats and other pest we kill for no reason other than them wanting to survive along side us in our towns and cities? Surely we can spare some of our food for the rats? Or the vast amount of animals we murder each year to maintain our agricultural production?

That's...literally common sense.

Common sense has no place in an augmented discussion.

Also, what would be the costs of vat growing? And not only in terms of money. Vat grown meat can not be "fed" in a normal way so any nutrients brought to it are going to be from chemical supplements.

1. Synthetic sources avoided? Well, have fun. Many vitamins, many... anything in today's system are synthetic. It's a great alternative to harming animals. We reduce the amount of harm we deal.

2. I actually don't care about rats and other pests. If I had my way, we wouldn't put out poison or exterminate them unless they were harming us. They can find food on their own.

3. Well, for carbohydrates, as it's still meat and could conceivably be "alive" in the same way single cell organisms are, it could be fed short-chain carbohydrates.

[Christian Democrats]

EAT SOYLENT GREEN

[The United Soviet Socialist Republic]

My plan:World domination. It would kill a few 100 million people. After that if the population gets out of control just force 1-2 billion people to work as slaves until they die of overworking building monuments to my glory. Anything to be able to keep eating my delicious meat.

[Purpelia]

1. Synthetic sources avoided? Well, have fun. Many vitamins, many... anything in today's system are synthetic. It's a great alternative to harming animals. We reduce the amount of harm we deal.

Eat fresh fruit instead of popping vitamin pills? Since when is that a controversial stance to take? I mean I guess if you are really hot on factory made pre cooked reheatable meals or something like that you might be taking in most of your vitamin content through chemicals. But I prefer my food freshly bought and cooked.

2. I actually don't care about rats and other pests. If I had my way, we wouldn't put out poison or exterminate them unless they were harming us. They can find food on their own.

Ah, but if you don't exterminate them all the time than you get plague and desease in your cities. Even thou they are not directly harming you.

3. Well, for carbohydrates, as it's still meat and could conceivably be "alive" in the same way single cell organisms are, it could be fed short-chain carbohydrates.

So where do we draw the line?

[Williamson]

My plan:World domination. It would kill a few 100 million people. After that if the population gets out of control just force 1-2 billion people to work as slaves until they die of overworking building monuments to my glory. Anything to be able to keep eating my delicious meat.

there a few holes in your plan.

[Sociobiology]

But meat is a very impormant bit of a balanced diet. I mean sure you can use various suplements and workarounds for it. But that does not mean we don't need it.

We don't need meat. I explained this in a previous post of mine. Rice and beans cover your protein and all the B-vitamins can be obtained from vegetable/fruit/legume/etc. sources or synthetic sources.

humans can survive on diet entirely made of wheat, we can achieve a well balanced diet by adding only two other crops, yeast and nori

so why grow anything else? :S

[Kazarogkai]

When i am an adualt i am already planning on Either

1. Going to Some Mountain west state, buying a few acres and I will farm/Ranch my own food while also doing other jobs like mechanical work for extra money.

2. Or Go get a boat and sail out into the pacific ocean find a small little Desert island somewhere and Live a primal super Luddite lifestyle(this one is my favorite)

So this wont affect for either way I will be producing food, I dont care much for females and kinda hate children also I am a loner anyways so this problem wont have any effect on me. So I will be fine, my Option #2 would have the added affect of making it so that I wont have to worry too much about global conflict since I wont be apart of any country. There are Tens of Thousands of Islands in the pacific the vast majority aren't even inhabited so this wont be too much of a problem for me to find a good one to live on.

[Zevassa]

We don't need meat. I explained this in a previous post of mine. Rice and beans cover your protein and all the B-vitamins can be obtained from vegetable/fruit/legume/etc. sources or synthetic sources.

humans can survive on diet entirely made of wheat, we can achieve a well balanced diet by adding only two other crops, yeast and nori

so why grow anything else? :S

Because humans are indulgent by nature. We need to eat stuff that tastes good.

[Mavorpen]

So? Just our existance causes suffering to other beings. What about say all the rats and other pest we kill for no reason other than them wanting to survive along side us in our towns and cities? Surely we can spare some of our food for the rats? Or the vast amount of animals we murder each year to maintain our agricultural production?

That's fucking nice, but I already addressed this argument. Committing atrocities is not an excuse to deny change. Also, I actually don't kill rats. I have occasionally found one or two in my home sparingly, but every time, I capture them, feed them, and release them. It's not complicated.

And no, mass murder of rats and other pests is indeed NOT necessary for our survival. Our ancestors lived quite productive lives even with the plague looming over their shoulders all the time. So what makes the plight of your average human plague victim so special that it justifies the suffering of the thousands of rats killed each day to prevent him getting infected?

Hilariously enough, rats didn't spread the infection, they actually helped prevent it. Humans spread it, it's as simple as that. Should we have killed humans in order to prevent infection? Moreover, the people didn't blame rats in the first place, so this is more of wishful thinking.

Common sense has no place in an augmented discussion.

Also, what would be the costs of vat growing? And not only in terms of money. Vat grown meat can not be "fed" in a normal way so any nutrients brought to it are going to be from chemical supplements.

Depends on who is growing it.

Also that article you linked to speaks of how they will try and make an edible burger. In other words meat that has enough of a texture to be edible when minced and fried. I would like to see any evidence they can replicate a decent steak, medium rare.

So, you're picking meat that they haven't attempted yet? They're focusing on hamburgers right now, not steak.

[Sociobiology]

1. Synthetic sources avoided? Well, have fun. Many vitamins, many... anything in today's system are synthetic. It's a great alternative to harming animals. We reduce the amount of harm we deal.

Eat fresh fruit instead of popping vitamin pills? Since when is that a controversial stance to take?

thinking like that is why many vegans have nutrient deficiencies.
many vitamins can not be obtained from fruit.

[Mavorpen]

Eat fresh fruit instead of popping vitamin pills? Since when is that a controversial stance to take?

thinking like that is why many vegans have nutrient deficiencies.
many vitamins can not be obtained from fruit.

What deficiencies?

[Purpelia]

A better question is why we humans evolved morality the way we did.* We have taken the concept of "don't harm others in your group since that is bad for the group and thus bad for you" and turned it into a recursive system of values whose one and only objective is to be self consistent no mater the costs and that now exists solely for the purpose of causing heated debates along the various mediums of communication within our species.

*Other animal species, especially social animals do exhibit limited forms of morality but usually within the group/pack/species and not so broad as we do.

[Sociobiology]

humans can survive on diet entirely made of wheat, we can achieve a well balanced diet by adding only two other crops, yeast and nori

so why grow anything else? :S

Because humans are indulgent by nature. We need to eat stuff that tastes good.

:S = sarcasm

[Gideus]

thinking like that is why many vegans have nutrient deficiencies.
many vitamins can not be obtained from fruit.

What deficiencies?

If they watch their diet, there are none. It's when they don't watch it that there may be deficiencies.

However, this is what supplements can cover.

[Zevassa]

Because humans are indulgent by nature. We need to eat stuff that tastes good.

:S = sarcasm

Oh don't misunderstand me, I was just being obtuse. Thank you though.

[Purpelia]

That's fucking nice, but I already addressed this argument. Committing atrocities is not an excuse to deny change. Also, I actually don't kill rats. I have occasionally found one or two in my home sparingly, but every time, I capture them, feed them, and release them. It's not complicated.

It is much more complicated once you have to run pest control for the infrastructure that allows your cities to function so that people like you can talk about morality. Like say the sewers or the water treatment plants or the food supplies. Imagine the cost if you had to carefully manage all that the way you do with your home. Or the costs of having farmers NOT kill pests in their fields. Humane methods don't scale up well.

Hilariously enough, rats didn't spread the infection, they actually helped prevent it. Humans spread it, it's as simple as that. Should we have killed humans in order to prevent infection? Moreover, the people didn't blame rats in the first place, so this is more of wishful thinking.

No, rats carried the fleas that carried the infection. Like all other animals of the time. And no, the people did indeed not blame the rats because they believed the plague was caused by evil fog called miasma. That is why they kept having plagues over and over again until someone figured it out.

Depends on who is growing it.

I would love to see a citation for how you intend to feed normal nutrients into something that does not have a digestive system.

So, you're picking meat that they haven't attempted yet? They're focusing on hamburgers right now, not steak.

If a technology does not have the capability to match our currently used one to the extent of producing all our currently available products even the most difficult ones than it is not a viable replacement for our currently used one.

[Mavorpen]

What deficiencies?

If they watch their diet, there are none. It's when they don't watch it that there may be deficiencies.

However, this is what supplements can cover.

Well, knowing which ones he means specifically is important.