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All That Is Rotten

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Is education undervalued in your country?

Yes
24
67%
No
7
19%
Other (explain)
0
No votes
Unsure
5
14%
 
Total votes : 36

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Forsher
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Postby Forsher » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:35 am

I'll start with listing my previous threads on the topic at hand. There was Educationz, Die School and Eduaction: Solution in February. They've been my only dedicated education threads although an argument can be made for Forgotten? but it was really too forgotten. Should Bibles be in State Schools? focussed on a particular aspect of education and A Smoking Good Education is linked here purely because I like those pictures. The reason why I am doing this is to provide the broadest possible picture for anyone who replies. (And also to show off my credentials, as it were.)

I'm interested in education but I am in a country where unless I stay in education in some capacity for the rest of my life there will come a point where I will be out of date and my opinions will reflect this. Between primary and secondary this is seen. In fact between the damn subjects and year levels this is seen. No-one has a real idea of what things are like. That said, except when it comes to knowing what is happening in schools this is all anecdotal. I may have just been blessed to have decreasing amounts of homework as I got older (until this year). I've often viewed this as a bad thing, but need it be so? Schools are pretty free in NZ regardless of whether they are private or not and the system is allowed to potter on as it wants. When one compares this to the US and its endless court cases one finds the secret agency approach to be much better. That said, it's not intentional... the unawareness, that is.

I think that overhauling the model of education in the United States would be a very good idea. What one must remember is that I have had secondary experience of education in the United States and I have talked about its system before in my threads but also threads that other posters have made (which aren't linked). The standard complaint with education in the US, and pretty much anywhere else, is that the education that students are getting isn't good enough. The usual response to this has been to review the curriculum but I think the US needs to be more basic. (Yes, I know that what I propose is unlikely to work.)

I have read remarks here by people who favour the end of the Board of Education which is a national (federal) body as far as I know. I disagree with this view. It is important to have a clear top down approach with a system that I have previously termed rotten. Basically, I think that the states need to say bye-bye to the control of education in their state, for now at least. There is precedent for this but it has required a military presence to work (look I just solved what to do with the army as well, aren't I clever?) so a firm hand would be needed. The BoE would create a curriculum, maybe even a qualification (importing one is an option... IGCSE for example), that would be rolled out across the US. They'd also institute a new funding model whereby schools that are in poorer areas would receive more funding per student than those in wealthier areas. It would also be important to ensure that areas have enough schools.

Here in New Zealand we have a thing called Tomorrow's Schools which is well liked, unlike No Child Left Behind (they're quite different), and one thing that came from that is a Board of Trustees, who are elected from the parent body for the most part, for each and every school. They do not, however, manage the curriculum and instead deal more with allocation of funds and extreme disciplinary actions (going before the Board is worse than meeting the Principal). This would be necessary, I feel. Hopefully the states would eventually be able to assume control once more but it would be only to ensure easier administration: they'd still take the lead from the BoE.

However, I feel that education is too undervalued around the world for stuff like this to actually happen. Sure there was controversy when we were told we'd be getting charter schools but that's faded out of the nation's conscience to the extent that I've forgotten what the name we'll have is. Valuing education to a proper extent is key and sadly I don't think education is the answer here. The change will have to start at the top. In a way the US has an advantage here with the strong political split. If someone made it an issue then change, or at least, talk of change would happen.

What do you think?
Last edited by Forsher on Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ulvena
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Postby Ulvena » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:39 am

Any nation that can produce her AND get a sizable amount of the teenage population want to be like her or some other stupid celebrity is undervaluing education.

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Forsher
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Postby Forsher » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:43 am

Ulvena wrote:Any nation that can produce her AND get a sizable amount of the teenage population want to be like her or some other stupid celebrity is undervaluing education.


It's quarter to five in the morning but I don't think I'd know who she is anyway.
That it Could be What it Is, Is What it Is

Stop making shit up, though. Links, or it's a God-damn lie and you know it.

The normie life is heteronormie

We won't know until 2053 when it'll be really obvious what he should've done. [...] We have no option but to guess.

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Zanzibarnia
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Postby Zanzibarnia » Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:03 am

Forsher wrote:
Ulvena wrote:Any nation that can produce her AND get a sizable amount of the teenage population want to be like her or some other stupid celebrity is undervaluing education.


It's quarter to five in the morning but I don't think I'd know who she is anyway.


America's youth aren't as lucky as you, believe me.

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Spreewerke
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Postby Spreewerke » Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:29 am

Ulvena wrote:Any nation that can produce her AND get a sizable amount of the teenage population want to be like her or some other stupid celebrity is undervaluing education.


There was a girl somewhat like her in my class last year. She told me that she sometimes thinks my girlfriend is almost as pretty as she is. I called her a bitch and declared "Mission Accomplished."

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Caninope
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Postby Caninope » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:15 am

Ulvena wrote:Any nation that can produce her AND get a sizable amount of the teenage population want to be like her or some other stupid celebrity is undervaluing education.

Excuse me?

Snookie makes 150k per episode. She figured out how to do that with a community college degree. I'm betting she's not nearly as stupid as she puts on.
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Because Caninope may be in that room with you.
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Raeyh
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Postby Raeyh » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:04 pm

Forsher wrote: think that overhauling the model of education in the United States would be a very good idea. What one must remember is that I have had secondary experience of education in the United States and I have talked about its system before in my threads but also threads that other posters have made (which aren't linked). The standard complaint with education in the US, and pretty much anywhere else, is that the education that students are getting isn't good enough.


The last time we tried to overhaul the education system, it ended up backfiring. Things should be left to the individual schools rather than some sweeping standardized program that does more harm than good.

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Forsher
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Postby Forsher » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:50 pm

Raeyh wrote:
Forsher wrote: think that overhauling the model of education in the United States would be a very good idea. What one must remember is that I have had secondary experience of education in the United States and I have talked about its system before in my threads but also threads that other posters have made (which aren't linked). The standard complaint with education in the US, and pretty much anywhere else, is that the education that students are getting isn't good enough.


The last time we tried to overhaul the education system, it ended up backfiring. Things should be left to the individual schools rather than some sweeping standardized program that does more harm than good.


Reform is not so much the word when complete overhaul makes more sense. Schools can do better and make progress themselves when they are given a decent situation to start with, my idea is to provide that situation.
That it Could be What it Is, Is What it Is

Stop making shit up, though. Links, or it's a God-damn lie and you know it.

The normie life is heteronormie

We won't know until 2053 when it'll be really obvious what he should've done. [...] We have no option but to guess.

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Forsher
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Postby Forsher » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:33 pm

Caninope wrote:
Ulvena wrote:Any nation that can produce her AND get a sizable amount of the teenage population want to be like her or some other stupid celebrity is undervaluing education.

Excuse me?

Snookie makes 150k per episode. She figured out how to do that with a community college degree. I'm betting she's not nearly as stupid as she puts on.


A lot of people get paid a lot for not doing anything very clever or being clever. It's what she does with that money that would make me decide whether or not she is clever (and philanthropy is not what I'm talking about). That said, someone can be very clever but also very limited... specialised knowledge.
That it Could be What it Is, Is What it Is

Stop making shit up, though. Links, or it's a God-damn lie and you know it.

The normie life is heteronormie

We won't know until 2053 when it'll be really obvious what he should've done. [...] We have no option but to guess.

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Death Metal
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Postby Death Metal » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:53 pm

Community college? You mean the glorified diploma vending machines?
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Caninope
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Postby Caninope » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:57 pm

Death Metal wrote:Community college? You mean the glorified diploma vending machines?

Yes. And somehow, I feel as if she makes more than anyone here on NSG.

There's something not right with this world. Either that, or she's much less dumb than we give her credit for. Perhaps both.
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Agritum wrote:Arg, Caninope is Captain America under disguise. Everyone knows it.
Frisivisia wrote:
Me wrote:Just don't. It'll get you a whole lot further in life if you come to realize you're not the smartest guy in the room, even if you probably are.

Because Caninope may be in that room with you.
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Thankfully, we have you and EM to guide us to wisdom and truth, holy one. :p
Norstal wrote:What I am saying of course is that we should clone Caninope.

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Raeyh
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Postby Raeyh » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:05 pm

Caninope wrote:
Death Metal wrote:Community college? You mean the glorified diploma vending machines?

Yes. And somehow, I feel as if she makes more than anyone here on NSG.

There's something not right with this world. Either that, or she's much less dumb than we give her credit for. Perhaps both.


She's an actor. You don't need higher education to be an actor. She doesn't even need the community college degree.

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Caninope
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Postby Caninope » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:09 pm

Raeyh wrote:
Caninope wrote:Yes. And somehow, I feel as if she makes more than anyone here on NSG.

There's something not right with this world. Either that, or she's much less dumb than we give her credit for. Perhaps both.


She's an actor. You don't need higher education to be an actor. She doesn't even need the community college degree.

No, but actors and performers need to know how to work an audience, which I would argue requires a certain type of intelligence.
I'm the Pope
Secretly CIA interns stomping out negative views of the US
Türkçe öğreniyorum ama zorluk var.
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Agritum wrote:Arg, Caninope is Captain America under disguise. Everyone knows it.
Frisivisia wrote:
Me wrote:Just don't. It'll get you a whole lot further in life if you come to realize you're not the smartest guy in the room, even if you probably are.

Because Caninope may be in that room with you.
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Thankfully, we have you and EM to guide us to wisdom and truth, holy one. :p
Norstal wrote:What I am saying of course is that we should clone Caninope.

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Tagmatium
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Postby Tagmatium » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:10 pm

Caninope wrote:
Raeyh wrote:
She's an actor. You don't need higher education to be an actor. She doesn't even need the community college degree.

No, but actors and performers need to know how to work an audience, which I would argue requires a certain type of intelligence.

Ask Clint Eastwood.
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Postby New Rogernomics » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:10 pm

I would be more concerned by the fact that many of the children in education are in poverty, and the schools demand big ticket items like iPads as well as school donations; which have to be paid in order for children to not be penalized and denied access to certain activities at school. The education system is often out of touch with reality.
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Caninope
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Postby Caninope » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:11 pm

Tagmatium wrote:
Caninope wrote:No, but actors and performers need to know how to work an audience, which I would argue requires a certain type of intelligence.

Ask Clint Eastwood.

He's gone senile. :p

Anyways, we should probably attempt to stop the first page threadjack. I accept responsibility for starting it.
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Türkçe öğreniyorum ama zorluk var.
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Agritum wrote:Arg, Caninope is Captain America under disguise. Everyone knows it.
Frisivisia wrote:
Me wrote:Just don't. It'll get you a whole lot further in life if you come to realize you're not the smartest guy in the room, even if you probably are.

Because Caninope may be in that room with you.
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Thankfully, we have you and EM to guide us to wisdom and truth, holy one. :p
Norstal wrote:What I am saying of course is that we should clone Caninope.

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Yewhohohopia
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Postby Yewhohohopia » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:16 pm

By some, maybe. On the other hand, the value of an arty education is maybe overplayed by others.
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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:21 pm

Raeyh wrote:She's an actor. You don't need higher education to be an actor. She doesn't even need the community college degree.


You technically don't need any formal degrees to work in IT, you could get by with just CompTIA or vendor certifications for whichever area of technology expertise you want to work in.

As for Snookie, I believe she is probably brilliant if she is able to make a great living for herself. She is much more successful than me, so I applaud her work. I don't watch Jersey Shore or anything, but I think it is all well and good if she has achieved her own economic success.
Last edited by Saiwania on Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Forsher
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Postby Forsher » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:28 pm

Yewhohohopia wrote:By some, maybe. On the other hand, the value of an arty education is maybe overplayed by others.


Last week I listened to a speech on the value of arts education. I think it's important it did not try to persuade anyone that an arts education is the way to go and treated it more as being supplementary.
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Stop making shit up, though. Links, or it's a God-damn lie and you know it.

The normie life is heteronormie

We won't know until 2053 when it'll be really obvious what he should've done. [...] We have no option but to guess.

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Raeyh
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Postby Raeyh » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:29 pm

Saiwania wrote:
Raeyh wrote:She's an actor. You don't need higher education to be an actor. She doesn't even need the community college degree.


You technically don't need any formal degrees to work in IT, you could get by with just CompTIA or vendor certifications for whichever area of technology expertise you want to work in.


I don't know why you brought up the IT industry, but, yes, I'm doing just that. I don't hold a single college degree yet work in that industry.

As for Snookie, I believe she is probably brilliant if she is able to make a great living for herself. She is much more successful than me, so I applaud her work. I don't watch Jersey Shore or anything, but I think it is all well and good if she has achieved her own economic success.


A success that likely had little to do with the US's educational system, one way or the other.

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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:38 pm

Raeyh wrote:I don't know why you brought up the IT industry, but, yes, I'm doing just that. I don't hold a single college degree yet work in that industry.


It might just be a crazy idea, but I would like high schools to offer certification courses. That would have definitely helped me out in the long run if I knew more about certifications which are in demand, rather than being told to go to college just for the sake of it.

A two year degree or more is about $10,000+ in tuition and books. Where as a certification is where you learn the same material on your own, but you take a $200 test and if you pass it- you are done and can put it on your resume. That is a significant advantage in terms of time and money.
Last edited by Saiwania on Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Forsher
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Postby Forsher » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:45 pm

That it Could be What it Is, Is What it Is

Stop making shit up, though. Links, or it's a God-damn lie and you know it.

The normie life is heteronormie

We won't know until 2053 when it'll be really obvious what he should've done. [...] We have no option but to guess.

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Raeyh
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Postby Raeyh » Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:50 pm

Saiwania wrote:
Raeyh wrote:I don't know why you brought up the IT industry, but, yes, I'm doing just that. I don't hold a single college degree yet work in that industry.


It might just be a crazy idea, but I would like high schools to offer certification courses. That would have definitely helped me out in the long run if I knew more about certifications which are in demand, rather than being told to go to college just for the sake of it.


I don't see why not, to my knowledge the Department of Rehabilitative Services, the Department of Corrections, and the Department of Labor already provide free job training. Why not have the school systems do the same?

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Yewhohohopia
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Postby Yewhohohopia » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:37 am

Forsher wrote:
Yewhohohopia wrote:By some, maybe. On the other hand, the value of an arty education is maybe overplayed by others.

Last week I listened to a speech on the value of arts education.

Yeah, quite.
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Forsher
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Postby Forsher » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:39 am

Yewhohohopia wrote:
Forsher wrote:Last week I listened to a speech on the value of arts education.

Yeah, quite.


Actually not quite. It was this week. Anyway it was quite moderate and not rabid in its promotion.
That it Could be What it Is, Is What it Is

Stop making shit up, though. Links, or it's a God-damn lie and you know it.

The normie life is heteronormie

We won't know until 2053 when it'll be really obvious what he should've done. [...] We have no option but to guess.

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