NATION

PASSWORD

Stalinism is not communism.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Harrgar
Secretary
 
Posts: 26
Founded: Dec 04, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Harrgar » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:39 pm

Zaras wrote:
Harrgar wrote:
It lasted longer than Soviet Russia...


Because Soviet Russia was run by the kind of totalitarian absolute morons at economics who make Reagan look like J.K. Galbraith.


Oh, I know that. I'm just saying that Stalinism is so bad that it manages to make Capitalism look decent. You're talking to an Anarcho-Communist/Democratic Socialist friend ;)

User avatar
Zaras
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7415
Founded: Nov 06, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Zaras » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:39 pm

Antiliberalbis wrote:That can't be done one day,


Yes, which is why socialism exists.

which is why you need extreme control of government to fade all of that out.


Wrong. Socialism is about dismantling the state.

Slalin tried that and he failed because the ideology he loved so much was not in line with human nature and the power he gained ultimately led to him killing 20 million people.


No, Stalin was not communist. He was a paranoid, power-hungry mass murdering dictator. He never did anything, ANYTHING to try and move the USSR towards evolving into a communist society. Hell, he backstabbed the Catalonians during the Civil War, who actually WERE communists! He had no principles except LOLMASSMURDER.

If any ideology leads to killing people whether it is nazism or communism, then it is not worthy of any real debate for the "perfect" society.


Except communism DIDN'T lead to people being killed! Stalin was not communist!

Communism had it's chance and proved itself to be an inherent evil.


Wrong. The only examples of communist societies are as follows:
* 1871, Paris Commune
* 1918, Free Territory, Ukraine
* 1936, anarchist Catalonia
* 1956, Hungarian Revolution

None of those were evil, and all of them were crushed by outside forces.

Other. Examples. Are. Not. Acceptable.

Paris, Ukraine, Catalonia, Hungary. That's it. The Soviets, etc. weren't communist. Just those four.

Anyone who thinks otherwise probably failed every history class they took.


That's hilarious coming from somebody who can't tell the difference between communism and stalinism.
Bythyrona wrote:
Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.

Best post I've seen on NS since I've been here. :clap:
Factbook
RP 1, RP 2, RP 3, RP 4, RP 5
ADS, UDL, GFN member
Political compass (old), Political compass (new)
Bottle, telling it like it is.
Risottia, on lolbertarianism.

User avatar
Zaras
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7415
Founded: Nov 06, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Zaras » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:40 pm

Harrgar wrote:
Zaras wrote:
Because Soviet Russia was run by the kind of totalitarian absolute morons at economics who make Reagan look like J.K. Galbraith.


Oh, I know that. I'm just saying that Stalinism is so bad that it manages to make Capitalism look decent. You're talking to an Anarcho-Communist/Democratic Socialist friend ;)


Couldn't tell... :unsure:
Bythyrona wrote:
Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.

Best post I've seen on NS since I've been here. :clap:
Factbook
RP 1, RP 2, RP 3, RP 4, RP 5
ADS, UDL, GFN member
Political compass (old), Political compass (new)
Bottle, telling it like it is.
Risottia, on lolbertarianism.

User avatar
Of the Free Socialist Territories
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8370
Founded: Feb 12, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:40 pm

Antiliberalbis wrote:I know you didn't, which is why I quoted him specifically. Back to your last post, though. I already know the fundamentals of communism. There is no money, state, or class, and everyone is happy.


Correct.

That can't be done one day, which is why you need extreme control of government to fade all of that out.


Numerous historical examples show you to be talking shit, but I'll persevere.

Stalin tried that and he failed because the ideology he loved so much was not in line with human nature and the power he gained ultimately led to him killing 20 million people.


If Stalin loved communism so much, why was he a virulent anti-communist fundamentally opposed to communist concepts such as common ownership of the means of production?

If any ideology leads to killing people whether it is nazism or communism, then it is not worthy of any real debate for the "perfect" society.


Democracy sometimes kill people. Should we ban that? No. Capitalism leads to killing people, sometimes, so let's ban that also.

I'll entertain liberals and socialism in debates because they actually have sound principles that could work.


That's nice.

Communism had its chance and proved itself to be an inherent evil.


For that to be true the Soviet Union would have had to be communist and/or taking definite steps towards communism. Both were clearly not the case.

Anyone who thinks otherwise probably failed every history class they took.


Wow! A real life ad hominem! Can we keep it?

If by "failed history class" you mean "has a better understanding of historical fact and how it relates to communism than you do", then yes, I'm a failure at history.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

User avatar
East Klent
Minister
 
Posts: 3002
Founded: Jan 12, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby East Klent » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:42 pm

Communism is great in theory, but it just has not and will not work in practicality.
Last edited by East Klent on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
IC: The United Republic of Klent, URK, or the United Klentian Republic. Canon Project
Defcon:1 2 3 4 (On Alert) 5

TNN: 6/30/15
The CKDA goes to Congress for ratification and the administration prepares for talks in Batavia.

NEKSE ▲39.63 |NKTSE ▲25.03|GDIE ▲8.45


User avatar
Bobbyland420
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 147
Founded: Oct 27, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Bobbyland420 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:42 pm

However, attempts to implement communism often result in stalinist type systems.

User avatar
Antiliberalbis
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 148
Founded: Nov 24, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Antiliberalbis » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:42 pm

Zaras wrote:
Antiliberalbis wrote:That can't be done one day,


Yes, which is why socialism exists.

which is why you need extreme control of government to fade all of that out.


Wrong. Socialism is about dismantling the state.

Slalin tried that and he failed because the ideology he loved so much was not in line with human nature and the power he gained ultimately led to him killing 20 million people.


No, Stalin was not communist. He was a paranoid, power-hungry mass murdering dictator. He never did anything, ANYTHING to try and move the USSR towards evolving into a communist society. Hell, he backstabbed the Catalonians during the Civil War, who actually WERE communists! He had no principles except LOLMASSMURDER.

If any ideology leads to killing people whether it is nazism or communism, then it is not worthy of any real debate for the "perfect" society.


Except communism DIDN'T lead to people being killed! Stalin was not communist!

Communism had it's chance and proved itself to be an inherent evil.


Wrong. The only examples of communist societies are as follows:
* 1871, Paris Commune
* 1918, Free Territory, Ukraine
* 1936, anarchist Catalonia
* 1956, Hungarian Revolution

None of those were evil, and all of them were crushed by outside forces.

Other. Examples. Are. Not. Acceptable.

Paris, Ukraine, Catalonia, Hungary. That's it. The Soviets, etc. weren't communist. Just those four.

Anyone who thinks otherwise probably failed every history class they took.


That's hilarious coming from somebody who can't tell the difference between communism and stalinism.
So socialism is now the stepping stone to communism? Glad liberals are at least not trying to bs around that any more.
Gay Marriage. Separation of Church and State/Secularism. End to wars in the Middle East. Pro-Choice. Public Schools.


Political Correctness. Feminism. i'm for the rights of all people. Wealth Redistribution. Socialism. Communism. Healthcare mandates. Big Government. Extreme gun control. The perception of the Constitution being a "Living Document." Affirmative Action. Wasteful spending.

User avatar
Harrgar
Secretary
 
Posts: 26
Founded: Dec 04, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Harrgar » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:42 pm

CTALNH wrote:
Zaras wrote:
Ignore this entire thread, that way we can get somewhere.

Oh no maybe one day you people will understand that revolution isn't a walk in the park and decide to become true Marxist Leninists...


Of course the revolution won't be a walk in the park. But we don't need to make the streets flow with blood to get it done. Gahndi made an independent India through peaceful protest. Martin Luther King Junior improved civil rights for African americans through rallies and powerful speeches. It's easy to grab a gun and kill someone that disagrees with you, but it's hard to make them think that you have a point.

User avatar
Of the Free Socialist Territories
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8370
Founded: Feb 12, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:43 pm

Bobbyland420 wrote:However, attempts to implement communism often result in stalinist type systems.


The Soviet Union was not an attempt to implement communism; it crushed its neighbour, the Ukrainian Free Territory, when it actually did implement communism.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

User avatar
New England and The Maritimes
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28872
Founded: Aug 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby New England and The Maritimes » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:43 pm

Zaras wrote:
Antiliberalbis wrote:That can't be done one day,


Yes, which is why socialism exists.

Eh, the revolution until completion would probably be more in the form of syndicalism, with workers councils organizing locally and all that.

which is why you need extreme control of government to fade all of that out.


Wrong. Socialism is about dismantling the state.[/quote]
Sorta. First subordinating it, then allowing it to wither as it becomes unnecessary.

Communism had it's chance and proved itself to be an inherent evil.


Wrong. The only examples of communist societies are as follows:
* 1871, Paris Commune
* 1918, Free Territory, Ukraine
* 1936, anarchist Catalonia
* 1956, Hungarian Revolution

None of those were evil, and all of them were crushed by outside forces.

Other. Examples. Are. Not. Acceptable.

Paris, Ukraine, Catalonia, Hungary. That's it. The Soviets, etc. weren't communist. Just those four.

I'm not sure on that list. I think 1919 Hungary was somewhere in that region.
All aboard the Love Train. Choo Choo, honeybears. I am Ininiwiyaw Rocopurr:Get in my bed, you perfect human being.
Yesterday's just a memory

Soviet Haaregrad wrote:Some people's opinions are based on rational observations, others base theirs on imaginative thinking. The reality-based community ought not to waste it's time refuting delusions.

Also, Bonobos
Formerly Brandenburg-Altmark Me.

User avatar
Bobbyland420
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 147
Founded: Oct 27, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Bobbyland420 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:44 pm

Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
Bobbyland420 wrote:However, attempts to implement communism often result in stalinist type systems.


The Soviet Union was not an attempt to implement communism
lol...

User avatar
Of the Free Socialist Territories
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8370
Founded: Feb 12, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:45 pm

Bobbyland420 wrote:
Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
The Soviet Union was not an attempt to implement communism
lol...


Congratulations on refuting my argument.

Oh wait, you didn't, you posted an intellectually vapid reply that in no way combatted anything that I said.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

User avatar
Harrgar
Secretary
 
Posts: 26
Founded: Dec 04, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Harrgar » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:45 pm

Zaras wrote:
Harrgar wrote:
Oh, I know that. I'm just saying that Stalinism is so bad that it manages to make Capitalism look decent. You're talking to an Anarcho-Communist/Democratic Socialist friend ;)


Couldn't tell... :unsure:


Ah, it's fine. A lot of people translate my hate for the Soviet Union for a love of Capitalism ;)

User avatar
Divair
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 63434
Founded: May 06, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Divair » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:45 pm

Bobbyland420 wrote:However, attempts to implement communism often result in stalinist type systems.

Just like the Free Territory, or the Paris Commune, right?

Or do you mean the USSR and China, who had no intention to implement communism from the start?

User avatar
Of the Free Socialist Territories
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8370
Founded: Feb 12, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:46 pm

Harrgar wrote:
Zaras wrote:
Couldn't tell... :unsure:


Ah, it's fine. A lot of people translate my hate for the Soviet Union for a love of Capitalism ;)



We all get that a lot. :p

I do in RL, anyway.
Last edited by Of the Free Socialist Territories on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

User avatar
4years
Senator
 
Posts: 4971
Founded: Aug 17, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby 4years » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:46 pm

East Klent wrote:Communism is great in theory, but it just has not and will not work in practicality.


Paris Commune.
Political Compass: Economic Left/Right: -10.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -10
"Those who do not move, do not notice their chains. "
-Rosa Luxemburg
"In place of bourgeois society with all of it's classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, one in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all" -Karl Marx
There is no such thing as rational self interest; pure reason leads to the greatest good for the greatest number.

User avatar
East Klent
Minister
 
Posts: 3002
Founded: Jan 12, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby East Klent » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:47 pm

4years wrote:
East Klent wrote:Communism is great in theory, but it just has not and will not work in practicality.


Paris Commune.

On a grand scale in its purest form.
IC: The United Republic of Klent, URK, or the United Klentian Republic. Canon Project
Defcon:1 2 3 4 (On Alert) 5

TNN: 6/30/15
The CKDA goes to Congress for ratification and the administration prepares for talks in Batavia.

NEKSE ▲39.63 |NKTSE ▲25.03|GDIE ▲8.45


User avatar
Of the Free Socialist Territories
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8370
Founded: Feb 12, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:48 pm

East Klent wrote:
4years wrote:
Paris Commune.

On a grand scale in its purest form.


The Ukrainian Free Territory.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

User avatar
Divair
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 63434
Founded: May 06, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Divair » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:48 pm

Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
East Klent wrote:On a grand scale in its purest form.


The Ukrainian Free Territory.

Catalonia for a while, too.

User avatar
Zaras
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7415
Founded: Nov 06, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Zaras » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:50 pm

East Klent wrote:Communism is great in theory, but it just has not and will not work in practicality.


Tell that to historical examples of communist societies.

Bobbyland420 wrote:However, attempts to implement communism often result in stalinist type systems.


Paris, Ukraine, Catalonia and Hungary call bullshit.
Bythyrona wrote:
Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.

Best post I've seen on NS since I've been here. :clap:
Factbook
RP 1, RP 2, RP 3, RP 4, RP 5
ADS, UDL, GFN member
Political compass (old), Political compass (new)
Bottle, telling it like it is.
Risottia, on lolbertarianism.

User avatar
Of the Free Socialist Territories
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8370
Founded: Feb 12, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:51 pm

Divair wrote:
Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
The Ukrainian Free Territory.

Catalonia for a while, too.


True, but the UFT was slightly bigger and more populous, IIRC.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

User avatar
Zaras
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7415
Founded: Nov 06, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Zaras » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:51 pm

Antiliberalbis wrote:So socialism is now the stepping stone to communism?


It's what is defined in Marx's work as the transitional phase.

Glad liberals are at least not trying to bs around that any more.


I'm not a liberal, dude. I'm a democratic socialist/anarcho-communist.
Last edited by Zaras on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bythyrona wrote:
Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.

Best post I've seen on NS since I've been here. :clap:
Factbook
RP 1, RP 2, RP 3, RP 4, RP 5
ADS, UDL, GFN member
Political compass (old), Political compass (new)
Bottle, telling it like it is.
Risottia, on lolbertarianism.

User avatar
East Klent
Minister
 
Posts: 3002
Founded: Jan 12, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby East Klent » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:51 pm

Divair wrote:
Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
The Ukrainian Free Territory.

Catalonia for a while, too.

Yes, for a while. That's my point. Mixed systems and Capitalism have been relatively more successful on a much more permanent basis than Communism.
IC: The United Republic of Klent, URK, or the United Klentian Republic. Canon Project
Defcon:1 2 3 4 (On Alert) 5

TNN: 6/30/15
The CKDA goes to Congress for ratification and the administration prepares for talks in Batavia.

NEKSE ▲39.63 |NKTSE ▲25.03|GDIE ▲8.45


User avatar
Divair
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 63434
Founded: May 06, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Divair » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:52 pm

East Klent wrote:
Divair wrote:Catalonia for a while, too.

Yes, for a while. That's my point. Mixed systems and Capitalism have been relatively more successful on a much more permanent basis than Communism.

It's not like they got invaded or anything.


owait.

User avatar
Zaras
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7415
Founded: Nov 06, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Zaras » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:52 pm

New England and The Maritimes wrote:Sorta. First subordinating it, then allowing it to wither as it becomes unnecessary.


Exactly what Lenin and Stalin didn't do.

I'm not sure on that list. I think 1919 Hungary was somewhere in that region.


I know more 'bout 1956. I got the vague impression Béla Kun was a Leninist.

East Klent wrote:Yes, for a while. That's my point. Mixed systems and Capitalism have been relatively more successful on a much more permanent basis than Communism.


Possibly because capitalism has used its armies to crush communism?
Bythyrona wrote:
Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.

Best post I've seen on NS since I've been here. :clap:
Factbook
RP 1, RP 2, RP 3, RP 4, RP 5
ADS, UDL, GFN member
Political compass (old), Political compass (new)
Bottle, telling it like it is.
Risottia, on lolbertarianism.

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: -Astoria-, Alternamerica, Austria-Bohemia-Hungary, Cannot think of a name, Celritannia, Dresderstan, Estanglia, Ethel mermania, Google [Bot], Grinning Dragon, Ifreann, Maineiacs, Organized States, Paddy O Fernature, Philjia, Shrillland

Advertisement

Remove ads