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Stalinism is not communism.

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Zaras
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Postby Zaras » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:16 am

CTALNH wrote:
Kvatchdom wrote:
Means that they recognize authority the time of the state.

They support violent revolution, but there is no need to kill every bourgeois out there. Especially now that 80% of the European populace is bourgeois in some way.

They generated a communist one right away, which was their problem.

And why shouldn't you kill them?


Because we're not murderous barbarians with a thirst for blood, like you think.
Bythyrona wrote:
Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.

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CTALNH
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Postby CTALNH » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:19 pm

Zaras wrote:
CTALNH wrote:And why shouldn't you kill them?


Because we're not murderous barbarians with a thirst for blood, like you think.

In the name of revolutionary terror everything is permitted....
"This guy is a State socialist, which doesn't so much mean mass murder and totalitarianism as it means trying to have a strong state to lead the way out of poverty and towards a bright future. Strict state control of the economy is necessary to make the great leap forward into that brighter future, and all elements of society must be sure to contribute or else."
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Divair
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Postby Divair » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:20 pm

CTALNH wrote:
Zaras wrote:
Because we're not murderous barbarians with a thirst for blood, like you think.

In the name of revolutionary terror everything is permitted....

In your lunatic world, maybe.

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Uiiop
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Postby Uiiop » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:20 pm

CTALNH wrote:
Zaras wrote:
Because we're not murderous barbarians with a thirst for blood, like you think.

In the name of revolutionary terror everything is permitted....

Why must terror be put though?

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Of the Free Socialist Territories
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Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:22 pm

CTALNH wrote:
Zaras wrote:
Because we're not murderous barbarians with a thirst for blood, like you think.

In the name of revolutionary terror everything is permitted....


Only if you're willing to betray all your principles.

If you trace your responsibility to history, then you cease to consider your responsibility towards your fellow men.

At the end of the day, what your politics seem to consist of to me is not communism by any stretch of the imagination, but rather a frenzied bloodlust which you've attached to an ideology (Stalinism) in which it's A-OK to express said bloodlust.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

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Silent Majority
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Postby Silent Majority » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:26 pm

Honestly, the only people I see equating stalinism to communism are right-wing conservatives.




Though I can't say I actually know any Stalinists....
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Priory Academy USSR
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Postby Priory Academy USSR » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:28 pm

Silent Majority wrote:Though I can't say I actually know any Stalinists....


CTALNH will show you.
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CTALNH
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Postby CTALNH » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:46 pm

Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
CTALNH wrote:In the name of revolutionary terror everything is permitted....


Only if you're willing to betray all your principles.

If you trace your responsibility to history, then you cease to consider your responsibility towards your fellow men.

At the end of the day, what your politics seem to consist of to me is not communism by any stretch of the imagination, but rather a frenzied bloodlust which you've attached to an ideology (Stalinism) in which it's A-OK to express said bloodlust.

Hey if Marx says that the old world will tremble in the face of revolutionary terror i got no problem with that....
"This guy is a State socialist, which doesn't so much mean mass murder and totalitarianism as it means trying to have a strong state to lead the way out of poverty and towards a bright future. Strict state control of the economy is necessary to make the great leap forward into that brighter future, and all elements of society must be sure to contribute or else."
Economic Left/Right: -9.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.64
Lawful Neutral/Lawful Evil half and half.
Authoritarian Extreme Leftist because fuck pre-existing Ideologies.
"Epicus Doomicus Metallicus"
Radical Anti-Radical Feminist Feminist
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Of the Free Socialist Territories
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Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:48 pm

CTALNH wrote:
Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
Only if you're willing to betray all your principles.

If you trace your responsibility to history, then you cease to consider your responsibility towards your fellow men.

At the end of the day, what your politics seem to consist of to me is not communism by any stretch of the imagination, but rather a frenzied bloodlust which you've attached to an ideology (Stalinism) in which it's A-OK to express said bloodlust.

Hey if Marx says that the old world will tremble in the face of revolutionary terror i got no problem with that....


Marx also said that the workers had to emancipate themselves ( M: Provisional Rules of the Association, in The General Council of the First International; Minutes, 1864-66 [v.1], 288.)

"CONSIDERING, That the emancipation of the working classes must be conquered by the working classes themselves;"

Quit being selective about which bits you follow.

Your ridiculous and anachronistic idea of a totalitarian steward state has no basis in communism or current reality.
Last edited by Of the Free Socialist Territories on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

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CTALNH
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Postby CTALNH » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:49 pm

Divair wrote:
CTALNH wrote:In the name of revolutionary terror everything is permitted....

In your lunatic world, maybe.

You would be surprised that Marx said it now me....
"This guy is a State socialist, which doesn't so much mean mass murder and totalitarianism as it means trying to have a strong state to lead the way out of poverty and towards a bright future. Strict state control of the economy is necessary to make the great leap forward into that brighter future, and all elements of society must be sure to contribute or else."
Economic Left/Right: -9.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.64
Lawful Neutral/Lawful Evil half and half.
Authoritarian Extreme Leftist because fuck pre-existing Ideologies.
"Epicus Doomicus Metallicus"
Radical Anti-Radical Feminist Feminist
S.W.I.F: Sex Worker Inclusionary Feminist.
T.I.F: Trans Inclusionary Feminist

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CTALNH
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Postby CTALNH » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:52 pm

Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
CTALNH wrote:Hey if Marx says that the old world will tremble in the face of revolutionary terror i got no problem with that....


Marx also said that the workers had to emancipate themselves ( M: Provisional Rules of the Association, in The General Council of the First International; Minutes, 1864-66 [v.1], 288.)

"CONSIDERING, That the emancipation of the working classes must be conquered by the working classes themselves;"

Quit being selective about which bits you follow.

Your ridiculous and anachronistic idea of a totalitarian steward state has no basis in communism or current reality.

"There is only one way to shorten and ease the convulsions of the old society and the bloody birth pangs of the new – revolutionary terror"

Says he....
"This guy is a State socialist, which doesn't so much mean mass murder and totalitarianism as it means trying to have a strong state to lead the way out of poverty and towards a bright future. Strict state control of the economy is necessary to make the great leap forward into that brighter future, and all elements of society must be sure to contribute or else."
Economic Left/Right: -9.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.64
Lawful Neutral/Lawful Evil half and half.
Authoritarian Extreme Leftist because fuck pre-existing Ideologies.
"Epicus Doomicus Metallicus"
Radical Anti-Radical Feminist Feminist
S.W.I.F: Sex Worker Inclusionary Feminist.
T.I.F: Trans Inclusionary Feminist

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Of the Free Socialist Territories
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Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:54 pm

CTALNH wrote:
Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
Marx also said that the workers had to emancipate themselves ( M: Provisional Rules of the Association, in The General Council of the First International; Minutes, 1864-66 [v.1], 288.)

"CONSIDERING, That the emancipation of the working classes must be conquered by the working classes themselves;"

Quit being selective about which bits you follow.

Your ridiculous and anachronistic idea of a totalitarian steward state has no basis in communism or current reality.

"There is only one way to shorten and ease the convulsions of the old society and the bloody birth pangs of the new – revolutionary terror"

Says he....


Congratulations on a) using a "Tu quoque" fallacy and b) dodging my point.

I'm not inherently opposed to violence, I just believe that it should only be used were necessary. I don't have any objection to stuff being blown up, provided that you're not killing people willy-nilly.

Now, deal with the fact that your beliefs go against the first clause of the First International, as you're opposed to self-emancipation.
Last edited by Of the Free Socialist Territories on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

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CTALNH
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Postby CTALNH » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:58 pm

Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
CTALNH wrote:"There is only one way to shorten and ease the convulsions of the old society and the bloody birth pangs of the new – revolutionary terror"

Says he....


Congratulations on a) using a "Tu quoque" fallacy and b) dodging my point.

I'm not inherently opposed to violence, I just believe that it should only be used were necessary. I don't have any objection to stuff being blown up, provided that you're not killing people willy-nilly.

Now, deal with the fact that your beliefs go against the first clause of the First International, as you're opposed to self-emancipation.

I prefer the third....
"This guy is a State socialist, which doesn't so much mean mass murder and totalitarianism as it means trying to have a strong state to lead the way out of poverty and towards a bright future. Strict state control of the economy is necessary to make the great leap forward into that brighter future, and all elements of society must be sure to contribute or else."
Economic Left/Right: -9.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.64
Lawful Neutral/Lawful Evil half and half.
Authoritarian Extreme Leftist because fuck pre-existing Ideologies.
"Epicus Doomicus Metallicus"
Radical Anti-Radical Feminist Feminist
S.W.I.F: Sex Worker Inclusionary Feminist.
T.I.F: Trans Inclusionary Feminist

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Antiliberalbis
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Postby Antiliberalbis » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:01 pm

Slain never achieved total communism, but he was most cetainly trying to, which therefore makes it communism.
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Trotskylvania
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Postby Trotskylvania » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:01 pm

Futhermore, I don't think any of the leftists here arguing with our Stalinist friend are against revolutionary terror when it is necessary, and only against groups that are in active, violent opposition to the revolutionary movement.

In other words, being reasonable.
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Of the Free Socialist Territories
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Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:06 pm

Antiliberalbis wrote:Slain never achieved total communism, but he was most cetainly trying to, which therefore makes it communism.


You didn't read the OP either, did you?
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

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Of the Free Socialist Territories
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Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:07 pm

CTALNH wrote:
Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
Congratulations on a) using a "Tu quoque" fallacy and b) dodging my point.

I'm not inherently opposed to violence, I just believe that it should only be used were necessary. I don't have any objection to stuff being blown up, provided that you're not killing people willy-nilly.

Now, deal with the fact that your beliefs go against the first clause of the First International, as you're opposed to self-emancipation.

I prefer the third....


But the First was brought into being by Marx and Engels. Ergo, by refusing to adopt its fundamental principle, you're not a Marxist and not a communist and shouldn't claim to be.

Trotskylvania wrote:Futhermore, I don't think any of the leftists here arguing with our Stalinist friend are against revolutionary terror when it is necessary, and only against groups that are in active, violent opposition to the revolutionary movement.

In other words, being reasonable.


I very much agree.
Last edited by Of the Free Socialist Territories on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

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CTALNH
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Postby CTALNH » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:07 pm

Trotskylvania wrote:Futhermore, I don't think any of the leftists here arguing with our Stalinist friend are against revolutionary terror when it is necessary, and only against groups that are in active, violent opposition to the revolutionary movement.

In other words, being reasonable.

There is such a thing in politics?
"This guy is a State socialist, which doesn't so much mean mass murder and totalitarianism as it means trying to have a strong state to lead the way out of poverty and towards a bright future. Strict state control of the economy is necessary to make the great leap forward into that brighter future, and all elements of society must be sure to contribute or else."
Economic Left/Right: -9.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.64
Lawful Neutral/Lawful Evil half and half.
Authoritarian Extreme Leftist because fuck pre-existing Ideologies.
"Epicus Doomicus Metallicus"
Radical Anti-Radical Feminist Feminist
S.W.I.F: Sex Worker Inclusionary Feminist.
T.I.F: Trans Inclusionary Feminist

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Antiliberalbis
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Postby Antiliberalbis » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:09 pm

Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
Antiliberalbis wrote:Slain never achieved total communism, but he was most cetainly trying to, which therefore makes it communism.


You didn't read the OP either, did you?
I don't read anything that is pro-communist.
Gay Marriage. Separation of Church and State/Secularism. End to wars in the Middle East. Pro-Choice. Public Schools.


Political Correctness. Feminism. i'm for the rights of all people. Wealth Redistribution. Socialism. Communism. Healthcare mandates. Big Government. Extreme gun control. The perception of the Constitution being a "Living Document." Affirmative Action. Wasteful spending.

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Zaras
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Postby Zaras » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:10 pm

Antiliberalbis wrote:Slain never achieved total communism, but he was most cetainly trying to.


He wasn't. Ever.
Bythyrona wrote:
Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.

Best post I've seen on NS since I've been here. :clap:
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ADS, UDL, GFN member
Political compass (old), Political compass (new)
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Of the Free Socialist Territories
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Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:10 pm

Antiliberalbis wrote:
Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
You didn't read the OP either, did you?


I don't read anything that is pro-communist.


Then your opinion is meaningless as it is based on a stubborn and close-minded refusal to consider evidence that contradicts your opinion.

The whole point of the OP is that Stalinism fundamentally goes against major communist principles and is therefore not communist.

Finally, if you refuse to read the OP of a thread which has almost entirely been based around arguments put forward in the OP, why bother posting at all expect to display ignorance on the topic?
Last edited by Of the Free Socialist Territories on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

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Zaras
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Founded: Nov 06, 2011
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Postby Zaras » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:10 pm

Antiliberalbis wrote:
Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
You didn't read the OP either, did you?
I don't read anything that is pro-communist.


Intellectual laziness always contributes so much to a topic. :roll:
Bythyrona wrote:
Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.

Best post I've seen on NS since I've been here. :clap:
Factbook
RP 1, RP 2, RP 3, RP 4, RP 5
ADS, UDL, GFN member
Political compass (old), Political compass (new)
Bottle, telling it like it is.
Risottia, on lolbertarianism.

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Antiliberalbis
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Founded: Nov 24, 2012
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Postby Antiliberalbis » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
Antiliberalbis wrote:
I don't read anything that is pro-communist.


Then your opinion is meaningless as it is based on a stubborn and close-minded refusal to consider evidence that contradicts your opinion.

The whole point of the OP is that Stalinism fundamentally goes against major communist principles and is therefore not communist.
Do I need to read up on Nazism to have a valid negative opinion of it too?
Last edited by Antiliberalbis on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gay Marriage. Separation of Church and State/Secularism. End to wars in the Middle East. Pro-Choice. Public Schools.


Political Correctness. Feminism. i'm for the rights of all people. Wealth Redistribution. Socialism. Communism. Healthcare mandates. Big Government. Extreme gun control. The perception of the Constitution being a "Living Document." Affirmative Action. Wasteful spending.

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CTALNH
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Postby CTALNH » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:12 pm

Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
CTALNH wrote:I prefer the third....


But the First was brought into being by Marx and Engels. Ergo, by refusing to adopt its fundamental principle, you're not a Marxist and not a communist and shouldn't claim to be.

No not really I am just moving on from 1860 to well now.....

Well I got to live with you and you with me for the rest of our pitiful lives....
At least I will fight for the cause...
"This guy is a State socialist, which doesn't so much mean mass murder and totalitarianism as it means trying to have a strong state to lead the way out of poverty and towards a bright future. Strict state control of the economy is necessary to make the great leap forward into that brighter future, and all elements of society must be sure to contribute or else."
Economic Left/Right: -9.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.64
Lawful Neutral/Lawful Evil half and half.
Authoritarian Extreme Leftist because fuck pre-existing Ideologies.
"Epicus Doomicus Metallicus"
Radical Anti-Radical Feminist Feminist
S.W.I.F: Sex Worker Inclusionary Feminist.
T.I.F: Trans Inclusionary Feminist

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Of the Free Socialist Territories
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Founded: Feb 12, 2012
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Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:12 pm

Antiliberalbis wrote:
Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
Then your opinion is meaningless as it is based on a stubborn and close-minded refusal to consider evidence that contradicts your opinion.

The whole point of the OP is that Stalinism fundamentally goes against major communist principles and is therefore not communist.
Do I need to read up on Nazism to disprove of it too?


It'd be useful to familiarise yourself with its principles in order to deconstruct it, yes.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

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