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Stalinism is not communism.

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Of the Free Socialist Territories
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Stalinism is not communism.

Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:11 am

It's been claimed by many, including Stalinists on NSG, that Stalinism is true communism, which is unfortunate, because the non-Stalinists among us are forced to live with this.

The point of this OP is not to state the obvious, but rather to prove that Stalinism is not communism.

In essence, Stalinism runs completely contrary to the principles of Marx and Engels, and it is the fact that it runs contrary to these as much as its state-capitalist aspects which means it cannot reasonably be called communism.

The Flaws of Stalinism:*

1. The Dictatorship of the Proletariat

Marx is insistent that the proletarian class must rise up and establish a "dictatorship of the proletariat". However, what he meant by this was a dictatorship in the sense of the ancient Roman Republic, i.e. a leader appointed for a short period of time, who does not practise tyranny, and who makes limited change to the existing order of things.

Indeed, Marx and Engels also attacked those within the Left movement who attempted to establish a form of personal dictatorship in the way that Lenin and Stalin later did, particularly Ferdinand Lassalle. It is obvious from even this that, because they opposed the dictatorial (in the modern sense) principles of Lassalle, that they would oppose the dictatorial principles of Stalin, in particular.

Furthermore, if communism is meant to "emancipate" the working class - and the word "emancipate" crops up at least 4 times in The Communist Manifesto - then surely an iron-fisted dictatorship, which oppresses the working class and causes huge suffering to ordinary people, as in the USSR, runs contrary to Marxist principles of "emancipation of the proletariat" and therefore contrary to communism itself?

2. Socialism In One Country

Socialism in One Country (SOIC) is one of the key tenets of Stalinism, and it is also one of its principles that is most prone to criticism. In layman's terms, SOIC consists of building socialism, and indeed communism, in one country, before spreading this abroad to other countries once the revolution has been successful in the initial country. This was Stalin's view on how the revolution should be carried out, influenced by the failed Soviet invasion of Poland in 1920-21 (which Stalin himself helped to defeat by retaining forces in south-east Ukraine instead of attacking with them).

For a refutation of this, I'll not use my own words, but those of Friedrich Engels, for the simple reason that, as one of the founding fathers of communism, he deserves a look-in.

Friedrich Engels in The Principles of Communism, 1847 wrote:"Will it be possible for this revolution to take place in one country alone?
No. By creating the world market, big industry has already brought all the peoples of the Earth, and especially the civilized peoples, into such close relation with one another that none is independent of what happens to the others. Further, it has co-ordinated the social development of the civilized countries to such an extent that, in all of them, bourgeoisie and proletariat have become the decisive classes, and the struggle between them the great struggle of the day. It follows that the communist revolution will not merely be a national phenomenon but must take place simultaneously in all civilized countries—that is to say, at least in England, America, France, and Germany. It will develop in each of the these countries more or less rapidly, according as one country or the other has a more developed industry, greater wealth, a more significant mass of productive forces. Hence, it will go slowest and will meet most obstacles in Germany, most rapidly and with the fewest difficulties in England. It will have a powerful impact on the other countries of the world, and will radically alter the course of development which they have followed up to now, while greatly stepping up its pace. It is a universal revolution and will, accordingly, have a universal range."


TL;DR: SOIC runs contrary to socialist principles and is irrational, because all of the major developed Western countries, where the revolution ought to have happened, and not Russia, where it ought not to have happened, were and are closely linked, and as the world is not a vacuum, a socialist state cannot prosper and spread the revolution on its own.

3. The Elevation of the Party Above the Proletariat

This is probably the most glaringly obvious flaw in Stalinism, and it links back to my mention of Lassalle earlier. The whole point of communism is to create a classless society, yet in the USSR, instead of becoming ascendant, as they were in 1917 before Lenin cracked down, the proletariat merely had a new set of masters imposed upon them.

Pre-USSR
Upper class - Tsar and nobles
Middle class
Working class

In the USSR
Upper class - Stalin and Politburo
Middle class - nomenklatura, high-ranking NKVD men, party functionaries
Working class

In essence, instead of emancipating the proletariat, Stalinism merely imposes a new hierarchy on them.

Summary - Why Stalinism isn't communism

At the most basic level, a Marxist communist society:
  1. Is classless
  2. Is stateless
  3. Has no form of money
  4. Has the means of production owned in common by all people.

Stalinism meets none of these requirements.

1) Stalinism does remove classes - see "kulaks" and "bourgeoisie" - but then creates new ones to fill the gaps while maintaining the pretence of a revolution. In essence, it's as hierarchical as capitalism, if not more so.

2) Stalinism does not remove the state, it greatly expands it and its power, creating totalitarian police states ostensibly to "advance the revolution without the threat of saboteurs" etc. but actually to consolidate the power of the ruling elite.

3) Stalinism maintains currency and ration stamps as an element of coercion - the USSR, particularly in the early 30s during collectivisation, used food, and currency - ration stamps, which ensured access to food - as a weapon against dissent on a near-unparalleled scale. Currency is a key feature and a key weapon of Stalinist states.

4) Stalinism does not have the means of production owned in common by all people, the state instead takes control of the means of production because it cannot trust the workers, whom it allegedly sets out to emancipate, with the responsibility of their workplaces - after all, they might speak out against the Dear Leader, now, mightn't they?

*all arguments in this OP apply equally to Maoism, Hoxhaism and Jucheism.
------------------------------------
*wipes brow*

Phew. That's that done. Please have a read, NSG, and then tell me - what am I missing out? Is this just counter-revolutionary tripe meant to foment dissent against Comrade Stalin's Workers' And Peasants' State? Or am I right? What's your views on the matter? (I think mine are clear from the OP.)
Last edited by Of the Free Socialist Territories on Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

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Zaras
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Postby Zaras » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:16 am

Thank you, OTFST. Finally, an easy to see reference thread gathering all the criticisms.

Unfortunately, I don't think this will end the plague of clueless NSG'ers confusing Stalinism with communism...

Question, though: isn't abolishing currency a bit unfeasible when a society is as large in population as the USSR?
Last edited by Zaras on Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.

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Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:21 am

Zaras wrote:Thank you, OTFST. Finally, an easy to see reference thread gathering all the criticisms.

Unfortunately, I don't think this will end the plague of clueless NSG'ers confusing Stalinism with communism...

Question, though: isn't abolishing currency a bit unfeasible when a society is as large in population as the USSR?


The abolition of currency would only be feasible if the entire world were communist. In a society driven by the principles of SOIC and Stalinism, the whole world can never be communist, because then there are no outside enemies to justify the existence of the totalitarian Stalinist state - essentially, "if there are no enemies, why do we need a secret police force?"

It's basically self-imposed counter-revolution - the very existence of other aspects of the USSR's policies, like SOIC, itself un-communist, means that other potential communist reforms, like the removal of currency, can never be implemented.

Stalinism essentially, by its own principles, prevents itself from ever reaching communism.

That's my $0.02 on the matter. :p
Last edited by Of the Free Socialist Territories on Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

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Postby Voerdeland » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:34 am

Most NSers know that. As I mentioned somewhere, NSG is one of the very few places in the world where this fact is commonly accepted.

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Postby CTALNH » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:37 am

Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:~snip~

Wow a whole tread about me...
"This guy is a State socialist, which doesn't so much mean mass murder and totalitarianism as it means trying to have a strong state to lead the way out of poverty and towards a bright future. Strict state control of the economy is necessary to make the great leap forward into that brighter future, and all elements of society must be sure to contribute or else."
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Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:37 am

Voerdeland wrote:Most NSers know that. As I mentioned somewhere, NSG is one of the very few places in the world where this fact is commonly accepted.


Having spent a bit of time here, I beg to differ. :p

The point is not to state an obvious fact, the point is to set out the ideological and historical reasons why Stalinism isn't communism, to provide (hopefully) a combination of proof and a source of reasons for any debate on the issue.

I've sigged it for a reason.

Essentially, I want it to be a bit like Laerod's "Ultimate Hitler Thread", except it's about Stalinism, and not as expansive.

CTALNH wrote:
Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:~snip~

Wow a whole tread about me...


I was hoping you'd turn up.

No, it's more of a thread about how your beliefs are no more communist than Ronald Reagan's.
Last edited by Of the Free Socialist Territories on Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

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Postby Zaras » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:37 am

Voerdeland wrote:Most NSers know that. As I mentioned somewhere, NSG is one of the very few places in the world where this fact is commonly accepted.


Still, we have to have something to force the n00bs to read. :)
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Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.

Best post I've seen on NS since I've been here. :clap:
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Postby The Multiversal Species Alliance » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:38 am

It's a form of Communism, just as Nazism is a form of Fascism or Direct Democracy is a form of Democracy.
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Postby Jewcrew » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:39 am

Nazis in Space wrote:
Divair wrote:wut



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

"Socialism /ˈsoʊʃəlɪzəm/ is an economic system characterised by social ownership and cooperative management of the means of production,[1] and a political philosophy advocating such a system."



Big difference.
"Social ownership" may refer to cooperative enterprises, common ownership, direct public ownership or autonomous state enterprises.
And it's worth noting that 'State Ownership' was very specifically mentioned among its most influential authors (Marx among them) as the most practical solution.

Though I'll grant you that 'Socialism' is hilariously nebulously defined, with hundreds of competing definitions, which makes it pretty easy to always pick one that suits one's purposes, while claiming that the other, competing definitions, movements, and lets-try-it-for-real attempts are clearly not socialism, despite very much originating from the 'Socialism' cloud of philosophical and socio-economic thought. That part, while sad, is sufficiently common - I dare saying it's universal - that you shall be excused for doing it.

Declaring a lack of private ownership 'Capitalism' by way of cunningly inverting the very definition of capitalism, on the other hand, is such a load of bullshit, it's inexcusable. Admittedly, you didn't object to that objection of mine, so that's covered, too.


To break it down: Stalinism is a form of communism/socialism. Just because it failed miserably at achieving the goals of communism doesn't mean it isn't true.
Last edited by Jewcrew on Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby CTALNH » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:39 am

The Multiversal Species Alliance wrote:It's a form of Communism, just as Nazism is a form of Fascism or Direct Democracy is a form of Democracy.

And everyone got nailed by the centrist.
Last edited by CTALNH on Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
"This guy is a State socialist, which doesn't so much mean mass murder and totalitarianism as it means trying to have a strong state to lead the way out of poverty and towards a bright future. Strict state control of the economy is necessary to make the great leap forward into that brighter future, and all elements of society must be sure to contribute or else."
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Postby Zaras » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:39 am

The Multiversal Species Alliance wrote:It's a form of Communism.


No. Stalinism is as far removed from communism as I am from being considered attractive by ladies.
Bythyrona wrote:
Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.

Best post I've seen on NS since I've been here. :clap:
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Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:39 am

The Multiversal Species Alliance wrote:It's a form of Communism, just as Nazism is a form of Fascism or Direct Democracy is a form of Democracy.


Did you read the OP? Stalinism directly contradicts Marx and Engels' writings and flies in the face of all communist theory.

It's as close to communism as dictatorial totalitarianism is to democracy.
Last edited by Of the Free Socialist Territories on Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

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Postby Constaniana » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:41 am

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Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:43 am

Jewcrew wrote:
Nazis in Space wrote:And it's worth noting that 'State Ownership' was very specifically mentioned among its most influential authors (Marx among them) as the most practical solution.

Though I'll grant you that 'Socialism' is hilariously nebulously defined, with hundreds of competing definitions, which makes it pretty easy to always pick one that suits one's purposes, while claiming that the other, competing definitions, movements, and lets-try-it-for-real attempts are clearly not socialism, despite very much originating from the 'Socialism' cloud of philosophical and socio-economic thought. That part, while sad, is sufficiently common - I dare saying it's universal - that you shall be excused for doing it.

Declaring a lack of private ownership 'Capitalism' by way of cunningly inverting the very definition of capitalism, on the other hand, is such a load of bullshit, it's inexcusable. Admittedly, you didn't object to that objection of mine, so that's covered, too.


I am talking about Marxist communism, not socialism. Stalinism is a weird perversion of socialism, I will grant you that. It is not communism in any way, shape or form.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

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Postby Jewcrew » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:44 am

Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
Jewcrew wrote:


I am talking about Marxist communism, not socialism. Stalinism is a weird perversion of socialism, I will grant you that. It is not communism in any way, shape or form.


Communism is merely an extreme form of socialism. Communists called themselves 'socialists' regularly, because it is technically true.
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Postby Ashmoria » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:45 am

Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote: Phew. That's that done. Please have a read, NSG, and then tell me - what am I missing out? Is this just counter-revolutionary tripe meant to foment dissent against Comrade Stalin's Workers' And Peasants' State? Or am I right? What's your views on the matter? (I think mine are clear from the OP.)

fine

but that puts "communisim" into the category of anarchism in terms of being a useless political philosophy that has never and will never be put into practice on a national level.

i suppose that is a step up from the grim reality of communism around the world.
whatever

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Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:47 am

Jewcrew wrote:
Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
I am talking about Marxist communism, not socialism. Stalinism is a weird perversion of socialism, I will grant you that. It is not communism in any way, shape or form.


Communism is merely an extreme form of socialism. Communists called themselves 'socialists' regularly, because it is technically true.


Stalinism and communism are both forms of socialism. It does not follow, however, that because they are both branches of the same tree, that they are the same branch.

Ashmoria wrote:
Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote: Phew. That's that done. Please have a read, NSG, and then tell me - what am I missing out? Is this just counter-revolutionary tripe meant to foment dissent against Comrade Stalin's Workers' And Peasants' State? Or am I right? What's your views on the matter? (I think mine are clear from the OP.)

fine

but that puts "communisim" into the category of anarchism in terms of being a useless political philosophy that has never and will never be put into practice on a national level.

i suppose that is a step up from the grim reality of communism around the world.


That is why I'm in favour of having a teeny tiny state, doing healthcare and not much else, rather than no state at all.
Last edited by Of the Free Socialist Territories on Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

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Postby Chinese Regions » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:47 am

Never?
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Postby Movimento Politico Anti Comunista » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:47 am

Communism is a huge violation of Freedom. I hate Communism!

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Postby Chinese Regions » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:48 am

Jewcrew wrote:
Nazis in Space wrote:And it's worth noting that 'State Ownership' was very specifically mentioned among its most influential authors (Marx among them) as the most practical solution.

Though I'll grant you that 'Socialism' is hilariously nebulously defined, with hundreds of competing definitions, which makes it pretty easy to always pick one that suits one's purposes, while claiming that the other, competing definitions, movements, and lets-try-it-for-real attempts are clearly not socialism, despite very much originating from the 'Socialism' cloud of philosophical and socio-economic thought. That part, while sad, is sufficiently common - I dare saying it's universal - that you shall be excused for doing it.

Declaring a lack of private ownership 'Capitalism' by way of cunningly inverting the very definition of capitalism, on the other hand, is such a load of bullshit, it's inexcusable. Admittedly, you didn't object to that objection of mine, so that's covered, too.


To break it down: Stalinism is a form of communism/socialism. Just because it failed miserably at achieving the goals of communism doesn't mean it isn't true.

You really think Stalin wanted a society where he had no power?
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Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:48 am

Movimento Politico Anti Comunista wrote:Communism is a huge violation of Freedom. I hate Communism!


Oh for God's sake read my OP, and then read books by Marx, and then consider how ludicrous that first statement is.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

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Postby Zaras » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:49 am

Movimento Politico Anti Comunista wrote:Communism is a huge violation of Freedom. I hate Communism!


What an incredibly useful contribution.
Bythyrona wrote:
Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.

Best post I've seen on NS since I've been here. :clap:
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Political compass (old), Political compass (new)
Bottle, telling it like it is.
Risottia, on lolbertarianism.

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Jewcrew
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Posts: 1197
Founded: Jul 27, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Jewcrew » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:49 am

Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
Jewcrew wrote:
Communism is merely an extreme form of socialism. Communists called themselves 'socialists' regularly, because it is technically true.


Stalinism and communism are both forms of socialism. It does not follow, however, that because they are both branches of the same tree, that they are the same branch.


They are twigs on the same branch, seeing as how it always seems to end up that way.
Zionism is the only path to peace. Masada will never fall again.

“Nobody does Israel any service by proclaiming its 'right to exist.'

Israel's right to exist, like that of the United States, Saudi Arabia and 152 other states, is axiomatic and unreserved. Israel's legitimacy is not suspended in midair awaiting acknowledgement....

There is certainly no other state, big or small, young or old, that would consider mere recognition of its 'right to exist' a favor, or a negotiable concession.” - former Israeli Foreign Affairs Minister Abba Eben

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Of the Free Socialist Territories
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Posts: 8370
Founded: Feb 12, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:50 am

Jewcrew wrote:
Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
Stalinism and communism are both forms of socialism. It does not follow, however, that because they are both branches of the same tree, that they are the same branch.


They are twigs on the same branch, seeing as how it always seems to end up that way.


Yes, of course, the totalitarian ideology and the quasi-anarchistic left ideology are almost the same. :roll:

I suppose they both have "ism" in their names.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

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Jewcrew
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Posts: 1197
Founded: Jul 27, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Jewcrew » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:50 am

Chinese Regions wrote:
Jewcrew wrote:
To break it down: Stalinism is a form of communism/socialism. Just because it failed miserably at achieving the goals of communism doesn't mean it isn't true.

You really think Stalin wanted a society where he had no power?


I think any society that runs contrary to the idea of individual liberty (also known as 'Capitalism') is doomed to dictatorial failure.
Zionism is the only path to peace. Masada will never fall again.

“Nobody does Israel any service by proclaiming its 'right to exist.'

Israel's right to exist, like that of the United States, Saudi Arabia and 152 other states, is axiomatic and unreserved. Israel's legitimacy is not suspended in midair awaiting acknowledgement....

There is certainly no other state, big or small, young or old, that would consider mere recognition of its 'right to exist' a favor, or a negotiable concession.” - former Israeli Foreign Affairs Minister Abba Eben

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