What is to you the worst/most terrifying ideology?

[Priory Academy USSR]

You honestly find that worse than Pol Pot or Hitler?





No, because while I am anti-civ, I do not think we should return to a Stone Age way of life. If your ideology isn't based around the idea of returning to the primitive, it's not primitivism.



1. How many times do I have to say that I am not a primitivist?
2. I'm not disputing that hunting and gathering is hunting and gathering, I'm disputing that it's how you make it sound.
3. Even if I was an anarcho-primitivist, I would have no reason to retreat into the woods or whatever. The point of a radical ideology is to alter the fundamental state of society, not to run away from it.
4. I like the Internet. I really do - but the chances of it being sustainable are very slim. You say you don't want to live in the woods, but our current civilization can't last forever in any case. It's better to move on than to repeat the same extremely flawed system over and over until the world dies out completely - pretty much the bleakest possible result, and sadly the one most people in the modern world would be willing to go along with.

If you aren't a primitivist then why defend them?

'Mr Chamberlain, if you aren't a Pole why defend them?'

[Uirokeilendh]

List them.

1. The fact that it treats people like cogs instead of people. Mario Savio said this better than me.
2. Waste most of your life earning money instead of doing what you actually want to do.
3. The free market needs the most powerful restraints to make sure it doesn't fuck everything up.
4. Companies putting profit above all else.
5. Free market fundamentalist dicks who somehow defend it in spite of all its fault.
6. Exploitation.
7. It's caused untold misery around the globe.
8. Primarily responsible for the continuing chasm between the First and Third Worlds.
9. Contamination leads to fucked-up societies that emphasise cutthroat competition over cooperation.
10. Inextricably tied up in a lot of history with colonialism, racism, classism, etc.
11. Anything that spawns terms like "rat race", "keeping up with the Joneses", "karoshi" and so forth is suspect.
12. Conspicuous consumption.
13. Encourages self-centred egotism.
14. Leads to societies that primarily emphasise ability to rise in hierarchies, and "who's sporting the nastiest sack of venom and who's the most willing to use it", to quote In the Company of Men.
15. Promotes horrible, destructive values.

I. Private ownership of the means of production does not treat people like cogs.
II. You have to do that in any society which is not post-scarcity. We are currently not post-scarcity.
III. Capitalism is not a synonym for unregulated market economy.
IV. You also have non-profit organisations, in which the means of production are privately owned. Also, that's an argument for why people are terrible, not for why capitalism should be hated. A company is not a living thing with thoughts.
V. Please see my arguments against 3 and 4.
VI. Exploitation is not unique to capitalism. It happens because bad people exist. Not because capitalism exists.
VII. That's ignoring all the other factors.
VIII. No it's not. The third world nations of Africa, for example, have been populated for far longer than Europe, yet Europe came to dominate the world. It has nothing to do with capitalism.
IX. Again, the fault of people not capitalism.
X. Yes, and things have changed. In addition, there are other factors responsible.
XI. -
XII. Consumption isn't bad.
XIII. Does it really?
XIV. Hierarchy existed before capitalism, and can exist without it.
XV. In what way does the private ownership of the means of production promote horrible and destructive values?

[Magmia]

Did I post in this thread already?

Idk...Anyways:

Theocracy (especially of the Islamic kind)
Objectivism
Laissez-faire
Nazism
Anything with a vanguard party

And pretty much anything else taken to the extreme.

EDIT: Yep....already posted here....

[Alaje]

If you aren't a primitivist then why defend them?

Because their views are better for the species, and all species, really, than our current model.

Wut?

[Uirokeilendh]

Did I post in this thread already?
Idk...Anyways:
Theocracy (especially of the Islamic kind)
[...]

Why "especially the Islamic kind"? What do you have against Islam?

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Because their views are better for the species, and all species, really, than our current model.

Wut?

I'm no primitivist, but I can see how us stepping out of our current role of pillaging every ecosystem in sight would be good for the planet.

[Uirokeilendh]

Because their views are better for the species, and all species, really, than our current model.

Wut?

If we returned to the primitive, the Earth could recover from all the damage we've been doing to it's environments.

[Republic Of Hell]

Anything in the red or blue sections of the political compass, or too far into the green at that.

[KMarx]

The far right.

[Magmia]

Why "especially the Islamic kind"? What do you have against Islam?

Saudi Arabia.... Taliban Afghanistan....

Nuff said.

Or if that's not enough, the rampent persecution of religious minorities (even within Islam) that is present in the Islamic countries (not exclusively the Islamic ones of course, but it is a problem).

Then there's the Jiyza (might have misspelled that).

[KMarx]

I think people forget the Christian fundamentalists and their actions. They are not any better than Islamic fundamentalists. It isn't in the media because obviously the West has it's own agenda.

[Alaje]

Wut?

If we returned to the primitive, the Earth could recover from all the damage we've been doing to it's environments.

No, that'd just make us cavemen.

[Oneracon]

Anarchism
Stalinism
Theocracy (including Christian Democracy, Islamic fundamentalism, etc.)
Corporatism
Libertarianism
Republicanism
Fascism

[United State of America]

If we returned to the primitive, the Earth could recover from all the damage we've been doing to it's environments.

No, that'd just make us cavemen.

B-b-b-b-b-but Alaje...

[Magmia]

I think people forget the Christian fundamentalists and their actions.
They are not any better than Islamic fundamentalists.
It isn't the media because obviously the West has it's own agenda.

We don't, but when was the last time you saw a Christian Fundamentalist group comparable to Al-Qaeda?

But they aren't as rampent.

[Zaras]

I. Private ownership of the means of production does not treat people like cogs.

No, it makes people treat other people like cogs.

II. You have to do that in any society which is not post-scarcity. We are currently not post-scarcity.

Still doesn't mean we could improve things.

III. Capitalism is not a synonym for unregulated market economy.

Some stupid libertarians act like it is.

IV. You also have non-profit organisations, in which the means of production are privately owned. Also, that's an argument for why people are terrible, not for why capitalism should be hated. A company is not a living thing with thoughts.

I know, I was abstracting that for the sake of getting the writing done quickly.

VI. Exploitation is not unique to capitalism. It happens because bad people exist. Not because capitalism exists.

Exploitation is inherent in capitalism, because of the private ownership of the means of production. You have to pay people less than what they're actually worth to make profits, etc.

VII. That's ignoring all the other factors.

Factors like neo-colonialism, the West and USSR's dick-waving contest...

VIII. No it's not. The third world nations of Africa, for example, have been populated for far longer than Europe, yet Europe came to dominate the world. It has nothing to do with capitalism.

Europe dominated the world through subjugation, exploitation and brutality.

IX. Again, the fault of people not capitalism.

Ask yourself: in a non-capitalist society, would these kinds of values still be promoted and fed to people, or questioned?

X. Yes, and things have changed. In addition, there are other factors responsible.

You think I don't know that? Still could be better.

XII. Consumption isn't bad.

Notice: I said conspicuous consumption.

XIII. Does it really?

The fact that it's the thing defended by free market libertarian fundamentalists shows that it can do that.

XIV. Hierarchy existed before capitalism, and can exist without it.

Must be news to the pre-capitalist, incredibly old societies that were organised along semi-communist principles.

XV. In what way does the private ownership of the means of production promote horrible and destructive values?

Encourages cutthroat competition, backstabbing, nastiness, wanton assholery and all that crap, even glorifies them/presents them as desirable ("killer instinct" and all that) in the service of materialist pursuits.

[Zaras]

I think people forget the Christian fundamentalists and their actions.
They are not any better than Islamic fundamentalists.
It isn't the media because obviously the West has it's own agenda.

We don't, but when was the last time you saw a Christian Fundamentalist group comparable to Al-Qaeda?

Operation Rescue. All the terrorists who bomb abortion clinics. The religious right loonies. The Catholic Church in Ireland's Magdalene Laundries.

[Uirokeilendh]

Why "especially the Islamic kind"? What do you have against Islam?

Saudi Arabia.... Taliban Afghanistan....

Nuff said.

Or if that's not enough, the rampent persecution of religious minorities (even within Islam) that is present in the Islamic countries (not exclusively the Islamic ones of course, but it is a problem).

Then there's the Jiyza (might have misspelled that).

Islam is not the reason why those countries are terrible places.

Jiyza?

[Uirokeilendh]

If we returned to the primitive, the Earth could recover from all the damage we've been doing to it's environments.

No, that'd just make us cavemen.

Yes, and cavemen aren't able to do as much damage as skyscrapermen.

[Zaras]

Saudi Arabia.... Taliban Afghanistan....

Nuff said.

Or if that's not enough, the rampent persecution of religious minorities (even within Islam) that is present in the Islamic countries (not exclusively the Islamic ones of course, but it is a problem).

Then there's the Jiyza (might have misspelled that).

Islam is not the reason why those countries are terrible places.

Jiyza?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

Though Magmia seems to ignore the fact that it doesn't exist anymore, but hey, Islamophobia is like that.

[Magmia]

We don't, but when was the last time you saw a Christian Fundamentalist group comparable to Al-Qaeda?

1. Operation Rescue.
2. All the terrorists who bomb abortion clinics.
3. The religious right loonies.
4. The Catholic Church in Ireland's Magdalene Laundries.

1. Crazy indeed, but not a terrorist group
2. No doubt it happens, but not as frequently as Islamic terror.
3. read 1.
4. Eh....no nothing about that.

Saudi Arabia.... Taliban Afghanistan....

Nuff said.

Or if that's not enough, the rampent persecution of religious minorities (even within Islam) that is present in the Islamic countries (not exclusively the Islamic ones of course, but it is a problem).

Then there's the Jiyza (might have misspelled that).

Islam is not the reason why those countries are terrible places.

Jiyza?

Not saying they are, but are they not theocratic?

I misspelled it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

[Alaje]

No, that'd just make us cavemen.

Yes, and cavemen aren't able to do as much damage as skyscrapermen.

If all your worried about is hurting the "poor little animals", then you need to get your priorities straight. We can't advance by going backwards.

[Conformal Veal Theory]

I'm going to take the Sarah Palin answer and say "all of them." Ideology is the enemy. It halts legitimate efforts in pretty much every way. Even progressive ideology eventually becomes outdated and backwards.

[Magmia]

Islam is not the reason why those countries are terrible places.

Jiyza?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

Though Magmia seems to ignore the fact that it doesn't exist anymore, but hey, Islamophobia is like that.

And where exactly did I say it still existed?

My point was, it's condoned in the Quran:
Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

It is also mentioned in the Hadith.

Dislike of Capitalism =/= Capiatlist phobia
Dislike of Communism =/= Communist phobia
Dislike of Islam =/= Islamaphobia

A phobia is a fear, not a dislike.

[Vecherd]

Statism(s) and Collectivism(s).