Should America continue support of Israel?

[EnragedMaldivians]

The Arab states have their share of the blame to be accountable for and so does Hamas et al but tell me, right now, who's building those damn settlelments despite the rest of the fucking world pleading with them to put a stop to it?

"yea, but... might is right, so huh!"

I've lived here for 14 years. It's the same debate every time.

Indeed.

Also, you're a reasonable Israeli fellow so I'd like to hear your opinion on whether your governments Samson Option bluff is worth calling? Do you think such bluffs might provoke a dangerous Iranian reaction, etc?

[North Calaveras]

Meh, give Palestine statehood then when they make the very stupid decision to attack israel(which they will because they just can't stand not seeing israeli blood) then Isreal will have a solid excuse as to why there tanks are rolling through the place.

[Divair]

"yea, but... might is right, so huh!"

I've lived here for 14 years. It's the same debate every time.

Indeed.

Also, you're a reasonable Israeli fellow so I'd like to hear your opinion on whether your governments Samson Option bluff is worth calling? Do you think such bluffs might provoke a dangerous Iranian reaction, etc?

I can tell you this:

A war is inevitable. With or without the US's prior approval, Israel will attack Iran. Even if the US tried to stay out, it'll get dragged in.

And surprise, you end up with Iraq 2.0 (albeit higher casualties and 2x the cost)

[Jewcrew]

You mean smaller? Because the original mandate included modern day Jordan.

If the Arabs hadn't started wars in 1948 and 1967, Israel would be far smaller, and there (might) be peace. But the Arabs did start those wars, so your point is moot.

The Arab states have their share of the blame to be accountable for and so does Hamas et al but tell me, right now, who's building those damn settlelments despite the rest of the fucking world pleading with them to put a stop to it?

The settlements aren't an obstacle to peace. There were settlements in the Sinia Peninsula before peace was reached with Egypt. The Gaza settlements were evacuated and Gaza given over to the Palestinian Arabs, causing a massive spike in terrorism and a million people living in bunkers 23 hours a day for months. The major settlements in Judea and Samaria make up 1.5% of the disputed territories, easily dealt with by land swaps, which Israel has offered. Most of what people are calling 'settlements' are actually suburbs of major Israeli cities naturally expanding.

Israel has offered to negotiate on numerous occasions, and the Palestinian Authority refuses to negotiate without preconditions. The last time there was a settlement freeze, the Palestinian Authority refused to negotiate for 7 months on the 10 months freeze. Then they stalled until the settlement freeze was over and refused to finish negotiating.

Remove Hamas and Fatah and hold proper elections and there might be a chance at peace, depending on the Palestinian Arab population. As long as Hamas and Fatah hold power, there will likely never be peace.

[A High Dark Place]

Just what the title says. They have fired on American military personnel twice in the past knowingly too. So what do you think NS?THIS IS NOT A RELIGION FORUM. It is strictly about America's support and whether or not you think it is a legitamate state. Once again not a religion forum do not start an argument about it.

I think the US should continue some support of Israel.

With no disrespect to Israelis living or dead, the foundation of Israel where it is was a massive mistake. A historical mistake, which was mostly of Britain's doing. You could also say it was the UN's first great mistake. But the US also had a hand in it, and have kept their hand in for many decades since.

So here is how I would disengage: Green Card Lottery to all Israeli citizens (Arab or Jewish) over a ten year period. Scaled so that over that period, every citizen there is offered emigration rights to the US once. Hopefully other historically involved nations (eg Britain, Germany, Russia) would make similar offers, and every citizen of Israel would have more than one option to relocate.

Then leave those who remain to the fate they chose. It's harsh, I know, because leaving the land of one's birth is not easy. Those who remained would have to live in a poorer and less secure and more Muslim and more Arabic country: Palestine. But perhaps it would not be so bad, perhaps they would be treated as well as Israel has treated the Arab Israelis.

Undoing historical wrongs is not easy. Someone is going to get hurt. But if the US and Britain really want to help fix the problem they caused, they must be the refuge they promised to the Jews when they offered the Jews their own nation.

The historical wrong, of course, is to establish a nation on the basis of religion. That's wrong anywhere.

[Inky Noodles]

Bucks are pretty hard to stop, it depends on where and what you are shooting it with.

On a serious note, we really shouldn't drop support, but we need to be more stern.

[EnragedMaldivians]

Indeed.

Also, you're a reasonable Israeli fellow so I'd like to hear your opinion on whether your governments Samson Option bluff is worth calling? Do you think such bluffs might provoke a dangerous Iranian reaction, etc?

I can tell you this:

A war is inevitable. With or without the US's prior approval, Israel will attack Iran. Even if the US tried to stay out, it'll get dragged in.

And surprise, you end up with Iraq 2.0 (albeit higher casualties and 2x the cost)

I doubt it's inevitable, though it is scary if that is the prevailing logic in Israel. Is it?

[Conserative Morality]

But perhaps it would not be so bad, perhaps they would be treated as well as Israel has treated the Arab Israelis.

Damn, that's harsh.

[Divair]

I can tell you this:

A war is inevitable. With or without the US's prior approval, Israel will attack Iran. Even if the US tried to stay out, it'll get dragged in.

And surprise, you end up with Iraq 2.0 (albeit higher casualties and 2x the cost)

I doubt it's inevitable, though it is scary if that is the prevailing logic in Israel. Is it?

In the general population? No.
In the government? Yes.

[Jewcrew]

You mean smaller? Because the original mandate included modern day Jordan.

If the Arabs hadn't started wars in 1948 and 1967, Israel would be far smaller, and there (might) be peace. But the Arabs did start those wars, so your point is moot.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.svg

When Japan attacked the US, did that give us the right to annex parts of Japan?

When Israel attacked Egypt in the six-day war, did that give Egypt the right to annex Israel if they lost?

Actually, yes. International law states that nations are allowed to annex and/or administer territory if such territory is required to meet their security needs. When Israel got a peace treaty with Egypt, they handed back the Sinai, since it wasn't needed for security anymore. The Palestinian Arabs didn't have a government that claimed them (Jordan didn't take them back in their peace treaty), so Israel had nothing they could do with the land and still had enemies willing to destroy and massacre the population (and still does have such enemies). If Israel completely pulls back from the area, it shrinks Israel to an 8 mile waistline and makes it indefensible. International law does, in fact, give Israel the right to keep the territory due to the security risks involved with withdrawal, as proven with the withdrawal from Gaza.

[Meryuma]

Not until they show that they're worthy of being supported. Right now, they're not.

[Jewcrew]

Just what the title says. They have fired on American military personnel twice in the past knowingly too. So what do you think NS?THIS IS NOT A RELIGION FORUM. It is strictly about America's support and whether or not you think it is a legitamate state. Once again not a religion forum do not start an argument about it.

I think the US should continue some support of Israel.

With no disrespect to Israelis living or dead, the foundation of Israel where it is was a massive mistake. A historical mistake, which was mostly of Britain's doing. You could also say it was the UN's first great mistake. But the US also had a hand in it, and have kept their hand in for many decades since.

So here is how I would disengage: Green Card Lottery to all Israeli citizens (Arab or Jewish) over a ten year period. Scaled so that over that period, every citizen there is offered emigration rights to the US once. Hopefully other historically involved nations (eg Britain, Germany, Russia) would make similar offers, and every citizen of Israel would have more than one option to relocate.

Then leave those who remain to the fate they chose. It's harsh, I know, because leaving the land of one's birth is not easy. Those who remained would have to live in a poorer and less secure and more Muslim and more Arabic country: Palestine. But perhaps it would not be so bad, perhaps they would be treated as well as Israel has treated the Arab Israelis.

Undoing historical wrongs is not easy. Someone is going to get hurt. But if the US and Britain really want to help fix the problem they caused, they must be the refuge they promised to the Jews when they offered the Jews their own nation.

The historical wrong, of course, is to establish a nation on the basis of religion. That's wrong anywhere.

The nation was established on the basis of more than just religion. It was also established on the basis of historical fact and the necessity of a Jewish homeland. Or should Jews continue to be subject to the whims of other peoples? That hasn't gone so well in the past.

And your 'solution' is ridiculous.

[Conserative Morality]

Actually, yes. International law states that nations are allowed to annex and/or administer territory if such territory is required to meet their security needs. When Israel got a peace treaty with Egypt, they handed back the Sinai, since it wasn't needed for security anymore.

Don't give me this benevolent Israel bullshit. They gave the Sinai back as part of a deal in order to ensure Egyptian recognition of Israel.

Furthermore, Israel has a lot of shit.

Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive. ... The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

The Palestinian Arabs didn't have a government that claimed them

What, the Palestinian state doesn't count?

Oh wait, that's right, Israel annexed them.

(Jordan didn't take them back in their peace treaty), so Israel had nothing they could do with the land and still had enemies willing to destroy and massacre the population (and still does have such enemies). If Israel completely pulls back from the area, it shrinks Israel to an 8 mile waistline and makes it indefensible. International law does, in fact, give Israel the right to keep the territory due to the security risks involved with withdrawal, as proven with the withdrawal from Gaza.

Like hell it does. See above UN resolutions.

[Silent Majority]

I don't really care whether it's legitimate or not, Israel has succesfully blackmailed everyone with its outrageous samson option, which threatens Iran with a pre-emptive Nuclear strike should the Iranians be overly belligerent with their Nuclear program.

If they state they're willing to go that far to preserve the regional balance, I'd rather America guarantee the Israelis their security and have some leverage to tell the madman to put down the hatchet for now, than that they should be left alone to take their security into their own hands.

I agree, but the problem is America isn't really able to pressure Israel. At all. When Obama made comments about how he supported a two-state solution, he was attacked for being "anti-Israel".

[Nimines]

The Samson option? Never heard of it care to explain.

The biblical story of Sampson who, captured by the Philistines, and chained to the pillars of their temple (or perhaps leaning against them in some versions) used his great strength to pull down the pillars, collapsing the temple, and killing all within.

The "Sampson option" as it refers to Israeli nuclear strategy is, in the event of nuclear war, to not target your enemy, or your attackers, but EVERYBODY. To "collapse the pillars of the world". It's as if to say "hey, America, Britain, Russia, if Iran attacks us, we're not just going to nuke them. We're going to nuke you too. Because if we go down, EVERYBODY is going down with us. So, maybe you should keep them off our backs."

Tel Aviv was the first to go in Fallout...

[Jewcrew]

Actually, yes. International law states that nations are allowed to annex and/or administer territory if such territory is required to meet their security needs. When Israel got a peace treaty with Egypt, they handed back the Sinai, since it wasn't needed for security anymore.

Don't give me this benevolent Israel bullshit. They gave the Sinai back as part of a deal in order to ensure Egyptian recognition of Israel.

Furthermore, Israel has a lot of shit.

Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive. ... The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

The Palestinian Arabs didn't have a government that claimed them

What, the Palestinian state doesn't count?

Oh wait, that's right, Israel annexed them.

(Jordan didn't take them back in their peace treaty), so Israel had nothing they could do with the land and still had enemies willing to destroy and massacre the population (and still does have such enemies). If Israel completely pulls back from the area, it shrinks Israel to an 8 mile waistline and makes it indefensible. International law does, in fact, give Israel the right to keep the territory due to the security risks involved with withdrawal, as proven with the withdrawal from Gaza.

Like hell it does. See above UN resolutions.

1. The UN Security Council has shown massive bias against Israel, with more resolution concerning Israel than any other country despite major human rights concerns, such as the slaughter in Darfur. Numerous legal authorities dispute the claim that the settlements are illegal. Again, read 'Myths and Facts: A Guide to the Arab-Israel Conflict'.
2. Israel has not forcibly transferred any population, it is a myth. I gave you a book to read.
3. There has never been a "Palestinian" state, and there won't be as long as Hamas and Fatah hold power.
4. If Syria ever gets a government willing to have a peace treat with Israel, the Golan Heights may very well go back to Syria. This has been publicly entertained previously, even with the annexation. Currently, Israel can't risk giving the Golan Heights back, and the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt has shown that Israel probably shouldn't have given the Sinai back to Egypt.
5. If you're going to curse, I'm not going to debate with you.

[Conserative Morality]

1. The UN Security Council has shown massive bias against Israel, with more resolution concerning Israel than any other country despite major human rights concerns, such as the slaughter in Darfur. Numerous legal authorities dispute the claim that the settlements are illegal. Again, read 'Myths and Facts: A Guide to the Arab-Israel Conflict'.

Actually, the UN security council has been ridiculously lenient towards Israel despite it's repeated flaunting of international law.

2. Israel has not forcibly transferred any population, it is a myth. I gave you a book to read.

Written by the head of AICE with a history of writing Israel apologetics. Forgive me for not taking the source seriously

3. There has never been a "Palestinian" state, and there won't be as long as Hamas and Fatah hold power.

Did you ignore my link from before? A Palestinian state is an Arab state in Palestine.

4. If Syria ever gets a government willing to have a peace treat with Israel, the Golan Heights may very well go back to Syria. This has been publicly entertained previously, even with the annexation. Currently, Israel can't risk giving the Golan Heights back, and the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt has shown that Israel probably shouldn't have given the Sinai back to Egypt.

Jesus Christ, not this shit again.

5. If you're going to curse, I'm not going to debate with you.

If you can't stand cursing, don't debate with me.

[Myrensis]

Absolutely. Israel is one of the most important allies of the US, if not the most important. They're the Western foothold in a region controlled by radical islamofascist dictatorships, a bastion of freedom that shines across the entire Middle East. All Western countries should have unwavering support for Israel, despite opposition from left-wing radicals who want to let Jordanians infiltrate Israel and kill millions of people simply because they are Jewish.

Utter nonsense. Israel may very well be our most useless ally on the planet. They've fired on our ships. They've sold our military technology to China. If we are to believe this "Samson Option" thing they basically have a standing policy of "If anything happens to us regardless of who is responsible we're going to kill as many Americans and Europeans as we can of just out of spite.". We tout our economic relationship with them, when we give them billions in aid to turn around and buy our equipment with our own money. The only thing anyone else in the Middle East sees Israel as is a bastion of Western (and particularly American) interference and aggression. Any criticism whatsoever of anything they do is immediately shouted down as "Anti-Semitism!", because apparently the government of Israel has total authority to speak for every Jew on the planet. America's massively overblown devotion to Israel is based primarily on the fact that we have a strong conservative christian political element who think Israel has to be around to pave the way for Jesus to come back. Or in other words, America loves Israel because the Jews need to be standing on that particular patch of land so they can all die or be converted when Armageddon kicks off.

[Jewcrew]

1. The UN Security Council has shown massive bias against Israel, with more resolution concerning Israel than any other country despite major human rights concerns, such as the slaughter in Darfur. Numerous legal authorities dispute the claim that the settlements are illegal. Again, read 'Myths and Facts: A Guide to the Arab-Israel Conflict'.

Actually, the UN security council has been ridiculously lenient towards Israel despite it's repeated flaunting of international law.

2. Israel has not forcibly transferred any population, it is a myth. I gave you a book to read.

Written by the head of AICE with a history of writing Israel apologetics. Forgive me for not taking the source seriously

3. There has never been a "Palestinian" state, and there won't be as long as Hamas and Fatah hold power.

Did you ignore my link from before? A Palestinian state is an Arab state in Palestine.

4. If Syria ever gets a government willing to have a peace treat with Israel, the Golan Heights may very well go back to Syria. This has been publicly entertained previously, even with the annexation. Currently, Israel can't risk giving the Golan Heights back, and the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt has shown that Israel probably shouldn't have given the Sinai back to Egypt.

Jesus Christ, not this shit again.

5. If you're going to curse, I'm not going to debate with you.

If you can't stand cursing, don't debate with me.

Okay, I want debate with you. You aren't worth debating with. I don't debate with mindless ideologues.

[Jewcrew]

Absolutely. Israel is one of the most important allies of the US, if not the most important. They're the Western foothold in a region controlled by radical islamofascist dictatorships, a bastion of freedom that shines across the entire Middle East. All Western countries should have unwavering support for Israel, despite opposition from left-wing radicals who want to let Jordanians infiltrate Israel and kill millions of people simply because they are Jewish.

Utter nonsense. Israel may very well be our most useless ally on the planet. They've fired on our ships. They've sold our military technology to China. If we are to believe this "Samson Option" thing they basically have a standing policy of "If anything happens to us regardless of who is responsible we're going to kill as many Americans and Europeans as we can of just out of spite.". We tout our economic relationship with them, when we give them billions in aid to turn around and buy our equipment with our own money. The only thing anyone else in the Middle East sees Israel as is a bastion of Western (and particularly American) interference and aggression. America's massively overblown devotion to Israel is based primarily on the fact that we have a strong conservative christian political element who think Israel has to be around to pave the way for Jesus to come back. Or in other words, America loves Israel because the Jews need to be standing on that particular patch of land so they can all die or be converted when Armageddon kicks off.

The Samson Option is a myth. Israel has no plan to kill anyone other than those that threaten them.

[Conserative Morality]

Okay, I want debate with you. You aren't worth debating with. I don't debate with mindless ideologues.

This coming from the person who thinks that the FJP in Egypt is a threat to Israel?

[Norsklow]

Actually,the UN has been indescribably lenient in not simply declaring the entire Arab League as a common enemy of all mankind over Darfur.

A stark and simple choice for the Arab to vacate Africa and never to return - or to be declared outlaw.

[Ostroeuropa]

Defending democracies from invasion?
Seems obvious to me, ofcourse we should.

[The Archregimancy]

Actually,the UN has been indescribably lenient in not simply declaring the entire Arab League as a common enemy of all mankind over Darfur.

A stark and simple choice for the Arab to vacate Africa and never to return - or to be declared outlaw.

Arabs vacate Africa?

It seems to me that this wouldn't leave very many people in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya and Egypt except for a few Berbers and Copts.

And where is this repatriated Arab population that's been in North Africa since the 7th century supposed to go?

[Myrensis]

Defending democracies from invasion?
Seems obvious to me, ofcourse we should.

This would be more convincing if we actually showed remotely the same level of "SUPPORT AT ALL COSTS!!" for...any other democratic nation. I wonder if Iran would be the boogeyman it currently is if we had, you know, not overthrown their democratically elected government to protect the profit margins of British oil companies.