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World Government United Earth

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Blakk Metal
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6737
Founded: Jun 07, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Blakk Metal » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:47 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Forster Keys wrote:
Did he even mention the whole "post-scarcity society" thing. Because that sort of collapses a great deal of his argument.

The words 'post' and 'scarcity' aren't even in there. I checked with Ctrl+f.

That's irrelevant to freedom.

Who said I was comparing the Federation with its contemporaries?
Forster Keys wrote:
Genivaria wrote:The words 'post' and 'scarcity' aren't even in there. I checked with Ctrl+f.


Pfft. The whole thing's garbage then. I'm not that into Star Trek, but they seem to use post-scarcity machines quite a lot... That changes the whole of nature of the economy and society.

The writers were morons, so they had little effect on anything.

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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69785
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:00 pm

Blazedtown wrote:
The Humanist Federation wrote:
But hey, no famine, war, greed, or discrimination. If you think the Federation is bad, you can always go live with these guys:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Cardass ... Government

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Borg_Collective

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Klingon ... Government

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Romulan ... Government


I'd still rather live in the Imperium of Man from WH40K or the Empire from Star Wars.

The Empire from Star Wars I somewhat understand. But the Imperium? Really?
Ok lets say your a human living in the Imperium. What kind of Imperial world you live on?
Forge World? Where every man, woman, and child are worked to death in massive factories and mines? Where the air is saturated with toxic gases and rivers flow with toxic runoff from the multitude of manufactoria.

How about a Hive World? They're lawless, corrupt, dirty places, polluted to the gills and damn near uninhabitable once you get deep enough due to thousands of years of pollution, and you're constantly at risk of alien invasion, murder at the hand of a horrible gang, or the Imperium itself.

Either you'll get caught in an Imperial culling where they kill citizens to keep the population at manageable levels (yes they actually do this) and die, or or join the army or Space Marines and THEN die.

Why would the denizens of a dirty, polluted Hive World be chosen to join the Emperor's Finest and the Imperial Guard, both of whom are expected in incredibly dangerous situations that would on average make us shit our pants?
Because Hive Worlds are thought to be as dangerous as Feral Worlds.

Yes, the average Imperial citizen lives in an environment considered as dangerous as a jungle in the stone age, except the inhabitants have guns and worse.
I shouldn't even have to explain to you why living on a Death World would suck, the name alone should tell you all you need to know.
Last edited by Genivaria on Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Blazedtown
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15177
Founded: Jun 09, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Blazedtown » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:15 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Blazedtown wrote:
I'd still rather live in the Imperium of Man from WH40K or the Empire from Star Wars.

The Empire from Star Wars I somewhat understand. But the Imperium? Really?
Ok lets say your a human living in the Imperium. What kind of Imperial world you live on?
Forge World? Where every man, woman, and child are worked to death in massive factories and mines? Where the air is saturated with toxic gases and rivers flow with toxic runoff from the multitude of manufactoria.

How about a Hive World? They're lawless, corrupt, dirty places, polluted to the gills and damn near uninhabitable once you get deep enough due to thousands of years of pollution, and you're constantly at risk of alien invasion, murder at the hand of a horrible gang, or the Imperium itself.

Either you'll get caught in an Imperial culling where they kill citizens to keep the population at manageable levels (yes they actually do this) and die, or or join the army or Space Marines and THEN die.

Why would the denizens of a dirty, polluted Hive World be chosen to join the Emperor's Finest and the Imperial Guard, both of whom are expected in incredibly dangerous situations that would on average make us shit our pants?
Because Hive Worlds are thought to be as dangerous as Feral Worlds.

Yes, the average Imperial citizen lives in an environment considered as dangerous as a jungle in the stone age, except the inhabitants have guns and worse.
I shouldn't even have to explain to you why living on a Death World would suck, the name alone should tell you all you need to know.


Because the Imperium runs on pure awesomesauce. Insane grimdark awesomesauce, but awesomesauce nonetheless.
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Pendragonia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 739
Founded: Nov 25, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Pendragonia » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:22 pm

Blazedtown wrote:
Genivaria wrote:No I won't sub those. Stalinism is a very specific version of what some people call Communism.
When you say that The Federation is Stalinist your implying that it is a tyrannical dictatorship with no freedoms to speak of.
Also the guy who wrote that article is an idiot, there is a great deal of assumption on his/her part.


http://www.cracked.com/video_18398_why- ... fying.html

This a much better reason why the Federation sucks.


Both are accurate assessments, and I'm a fan of the series.
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Vetalia
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Posts: 13699
Founded: Mar 23, 2005
Corporate Bordello

Postby Vetalia » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:24 pm

Blazedtown wrote:Because the Imperium runs on pure awesomesauce. Insane grimdark awesomesauce, but awesomesauce nonetheless.


Screw that, I'd rather live under the Imperium ruled by the Padishah Emperor. Preferably on Ix or Richese.
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The Humanist Federation
Diplomat
 
Posts: 534
Founded: Jul 04, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The Humanist Federation » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:24 pm

Pendragonia wrote:
Blazedtown wrote:
http://www.cracked.com/video_18398_why- ... fying.html

This a much better reason why the Federation sucks.


Both are accurate assessments, and I'm a fan of the series.


Nope. Federation 4 lyfe.

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The Electronic Future
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 188
Founded: Dec 15, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby The Electronic Future » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:39 pm

Here's a system which claims to be able to democratically organize the entire world under one government of six levels. Although, it also claims that our current economic system would have to be radically different so... :unsure:

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The Emerald Legion
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10695
Founded: Mar 18, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby The Emerald Legion » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:43 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Blazedtown wrote:
I'd still rather live in the Imperium of Man from WH40K or the Empire from Star Wars.

The Empire from Star Wars I somewhat understand. But the Imperium? Really?
Ok lets say your a human living in the Imperium. What kind of Imperial world you live on?
Forge World? Where every man, woman, and child are worked to death in massive factories and mines? Where the air is saturated with toxic gases and rivers flow with toxic runoff from the multitude of manufactoria.

How about a Hive World? They're lawless, corrupt, dirty places, polluted to the gills and damn near uninhabitable once you get deep enough due to thousands of years of pollution, and you're constantly at risk of alien invasion, murder at the hand of a horrible gang, or the Imperium itself.

Either you'll get caught in an Imperial culling where they kill citizens to keep the population at manageable levels (yes they actually do this) and die, or or join the army or Space Marines and THEN die.

Why would the denizens of a dirty, polluted Hive World be chosen to join the Emperor's Finest and the Imperial Guard, both of whom are expected in incredibly dangerous situations that would on average make us shit our pants?
Because Hive Worlds are thought to be as dangerous as Feral Worlds.

Yes, the average Imperial citizen lives in an environment considered as dangerous as a jungle in the stone age, except the inhabitants have guns and worse.
I shouldn't even have to explain to you why living on a Death World would suck, the name alone should tell you all you need to know.


>Move to a forge world.

>Go to Techpriest Seminary.

>Praise the Omnissiah.

>??? Too many variables

>Die horribly. In a Grimdark awesomesauce way.
"23.The unwise man is awake all night, and ponders everything over; when morning comes he is weary in mind, and all is a burden as ever." - Havamal

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Nazi States of Europe
Diplomat
 
Posts: 655
Founded: Apr 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Nazi States of Europe » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:46 pm

The Humanist Federation wrote:


But hey, no famine, war, greed, or discrimination. If you think the Federation is bad, you can always go live with these guys:

No war? Ever heard of The Dominion? How about the war with the Romulans? Or the fights with Klingons (the Organians forced them to stop once but they restarted later)?

No discrimination? How about Lt. Stiles and he's resentment of Romulans? To the point that he reflects it onto Spock he comrade. Theres also a mixed Human-Romulan (TNG: The Drumhead) who is discriminated against (there are more examples but I don't tend to remember them all).

Theres no famine due to technology.
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Divitaen
Senator
 
Posts: 4619
Founded: Jan 30, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Divitaen » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:57 pm

Arborlawn wrote:Ideally, it will destroy the Chinese.


This is curious. What do you have against Chinese, if you don't mind me asking?
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Conscentia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26681
Founded: Feb 04, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Conscentia » Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:18 am

Blazedtown wrote:
Conscentia wrote:
It's as if you still think the world's nations are independent of each other.


Globalization is not inevitable. It is only a by product of peace. History shows that lasting peace between major powers is impossible. As the various BRIC powers attempt to rise, the world order will have a major shake up. Great nations built from the bones of the dead with mud and straw, blood and sweat.


That's a terrible misinterpretation of the world & it's history.


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Segland
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1663
Founded: Apr 16, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Segland » Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:27 am

United Earth? That sounds like a political front that will try to establish world government.
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Ethel mermania
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 126541
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:34 am

Charlotte Ryberg wrote:Not gonna happen. Too many cultural and ideological differences.

One can only hope your right.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 



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Yankee Empire
Senator
 
Posts: 4186
Founded: Aug 01, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Yankee Empire » Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:41 am

Yorkopolis wrote:Like others said; It simply wouldn't. It sounds like an idea, but it would not work simply because there are too many cultures and there are too many ideological differences between one another.


Every empire was once an alottment of tribes... all of whome thought they would never surrender... yeah pride and want is differant from reality.

I once heard a saying that it would be brought about by either force or consent, if and when it ever does happen I imagine it would be a combination of both, but simply because their would inevitably be opposition to it doesn't mean it'd be impossible. Im not sure when or how such a thing would ever happen but unlike a large seeming majority of people i don't see it as necessarily being a bad thing.
Last edited by Yankee Empire on Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
Economic Left/Right: -6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.05


Pro: U.S.,Diplomatic Militarism, Imperialism, Patriotism/Civic Nationalism, Cosmopolitanism, Stoicism, Authoritarianism, Classical Liberalism, Unionism, Centralization (usually), Federalism, Corporatism.
Anti:Tribalism, Seccessionism(usually),Decentralization,Pure Capitalism/State controlled economics, Misanthropy,Cruelty, Cowardice, Pacifism,Hedonism, Corporitocracy.
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Dracone
Diplomat
 
Posts: 667
Founded: Jul 31, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Dracone » Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:05 am

Yankee Empire wrote:
Yorkopolis wrote:Like others said; It simply wouldn't. It sounds like an idea, but it would not work simply because there are too many cultures and there are too many ideological differences between one another.


Every empire was once an alottment of tribes... all of whome thought they would never surrender... yeah pride and want is differant from reality.

I once heard a saying that it would be brought about by either force or consent, if and when it ever does happen I imagine it would be a combination of both, but simply because their would inevitably be opposition to it doesn't mean it'd be impossible. Im not sure when or how such a thing would ever happen but unlike a large seeming majority of people i don't see it as necessarily being a bad thing.

The problem is that ome of us are too far off politically to have a place in any goverment. Currently, we have the option of finding some uninhabited spec of land and declaring our own, where as in a goverment controlling the entire world, unless we had the technology to go to a different world, then we would be forced into a system we dont like...
I will not source my infoprmation 99.9% of the time. If we were talking fact to face you wouldnt ask for a source, so judge what i say on its own basis, not on whether I source it, beecause I wont. Neither will I require a source, so long as the argument makes sense.

Also, Im here to have fun. If a debate gets boring, expect me to leave.

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Yankee Empire
Senator
 
Posts: 4186
Founded: Aug 01, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Yankee Empire » Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:42 am

Anarchist claim to be in that position all the time ( I always hear them complaining about it).

Of course it would be much easier to accomplishe if people had the ability to live on other worlds.

But perhaps the last step in our history on earth before we create more settlements out amongst the stars is an establishment of world government, idk.

Or maybe it'd be the other way around, or perhaps not at all.
Economic Left/Right: -6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.05


Pro: U.S.,Diplomatic Militarism, Imperialism, Patriotism/Civic Nationalism, Cosmopolitanism, Stoicism, Authoritarianism, Classical Liberalism, Unionism, Centralization (usually), Federalism, Corporatism.
Anti:Tribalism, Seccessionism(usually),Decentralization,Pure Capitalism/State controlled economics, Misanthropy,Cruelty, Cowardice, Pacifism,Hedonism, Corporitocracy.
Vice-Chairman of the National-Imperialist-FreedomParty
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."-Carl Schurz

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Dracone
Diplomat
 
Posts: 667
Founded: Jul 31, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Dracone » Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:49 am

Yankee Empire wrote:Anarchist claim to be in that position all the time ( I always hear them complaining about it).

Of course it would be much easier to accomplishe if people had the ability to live on other worlds.

But perhaps the last step in our history on earth before we create more settlements out amongst the stars is an establishment of world government, idk.

Or maybe it'd be the other way around, or perhaps not at all.

well yes anarchists, but others too. Im not an anarchist, but i would prefer anarchy to any goverment currently in existence. (I have my own views on goverment and there are several hypothetical goverments I could live in quite happily. But not one on earth that I beleive is truly free.)

And its more likely the second way, the way where going out to the stars would force a world goverment. But a world goverment isnt the last step before going out to the stars... the problem is lack of a technology that can propel a ship with nothing but electricity. Once we have that we could always build a ship (however large) and put an artificial enviroment on it and a nucleur powerplant to supply the eletricity. the goverment has nothing to do with it.

Id be perfectly fine with a world goverment, so long as I have the right and reasonable ability to flee to the stars.
I will not source my infoprmation 99.9% of the time. If we were talking fact to face you wouldnt ask for a source, so judge what i say on its own basis, not on whether I source it, beecause I wont. Neither will I require a source, so long as the argument makes sense.

Also, Im here to have fun. If a debate gets boring, expect me to leave.

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Socialist States Owen
Minister
 
Posts: 2721
Founded: Nov 23, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Socialist States Owen » Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:59 am

It'll happen when ALIENS ATTACK!
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Zottistan
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Posts: 14894
Founded: Nov 26, 2011
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Zottistan » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:22 am

Nordengrund wrote:I will try to keep religious discussion to a minimum in this thread, but my faith teaches that there will be a one world government ran by the Antichrist. I think at first it would be effecient, then leads to destruction.


Score! I've always wanted to rule the world.
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Blakk Metal
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6737
Founded: Jun 07, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Blakk Metal » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:33 am

Nazi States of Europe wrote:Theres no famine due to technology.

There would be no famine today if it weren't for stupid governments.

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Charlotte Ryberg
The Muse of the Westcountry
 
Posts: 15007
Founded: Mar 14, 2007
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Charlotte Ryberg » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:44 am

Conscentia wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:One can only hope your right.


You think international cooperation and coordination is a bad thing?

No, but a single global country with a single government is too much for such a diverse planet.

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Quixoticonia
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 2
Founded: Aug 06, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Quixoticonia » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:48 am

There's too many differences between people groups for a one world government to exist, presently, for it to be anything peaceful.

For one to be created, either technology has to advance more or something globally catastrophic has to happen.

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