NATION

PASSWORD

Jewish Discussion Thread

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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You are a(n)

Orthodox
50
5%
Modern Orthodox
36
4%
Conservative
101
11%
Reform
87
9%
Atheist
500
53%
Nonobservant
79
8%
Messianic
83
9%
 
Total votes : 936

User avatar
Ethel mermania
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 126443
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:59 pm

St James Puppet NationVille wrote:I have a question. I'm not Jewish so I wouldn't now? Despite the fact that it is traditionally a Christan holiday, do some Jews celebrate Christmas but focusing on the whole Santa thing?

not as jews, no.

are there jews who put up christmas trees? unfortunately yes, but they will tell you its a secular thing.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 



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Ethel mermania
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Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:03 pm

Daxe wrote:
Vazdania wrote:Well its actually an ethno-religion. If your mother is Jewish, so are you. If you choose not to follow Judaism as a religion, you're still Jewish.

But the ethnic appelation isn't israelite? Because, a seraphad jew isn't a part of a jew ethny, but a part of a berber ethny, for example...
Plus, you are muslim if your father is muslim, but you aren't a part of a "muslim" ethny.

its not the way jews look at it. its more like a tribe you can join and then be considered a full member of the tribe. both the serphardi and the askanesi consider themselves part of the jewish tribe.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 



http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilont ... ilizations

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Daxe
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Founded: Nov 14, 2013
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Postby Daxe » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
Daxe wrote:Can I join this thread. I am not jew (actually, I'm muslim), but I'm interested in the israëlo-palestinian conflict. :)


this thread is NOT about the isrealie - pallestinian conflict. it is about judisam. if you have questions about judisiam thats fine. if you want to bitch about isreal, please take it over there.

Don't be so touchy... I am neutral towards Israël and Palestine, I am just interested in this conflict...

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Daxe
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Founded: Nov 14, 2013
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Postby Daxe » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:07 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
Daxe wrote:But the ethnic appelation isn't israelite? Because, a seraphad jew isn't a part of a jew ethny, but a part of a berber ethny, for example...
Plus, you are muslim if your father is muslim, but you aren't a part of a "muslim" ethny.

its not the way jews look at it. its more like a tribe you can join and then be considered a full member of the tribe. both the serphardi and the askanesi consider themselves part of the jewish tribe.

Oh, I see. Thanks for your explanation. :)

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Ethel mermania
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Posts: 126443
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:10 pm

Daxe wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:
this thread is NOT about the isrealie - pallestinian conflict. it is about judisam. if you have questions about judisiam thats fine. if you want to bitch about isreal, please take it over there.

Don't be so touchy... I am neutral towards Israël and Palestine, I am just interested in this conflict...

we have a history of it coming into this space, and needing moderation to come in and clean it out, so i shall be as touchy as i want to be.

again though, any religious type questions please ask, happy to answer what we can.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 



http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilont ... ilizations

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Ethel mermania
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Posts: 126443
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:13 pm

Daxe wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:its not the way jews look at it. its more like a tribe you can join and then be considered a full member of the tribe. both the serphardi and the askanesi consider themselves part of the jewish tribe.

Oh, I see. Thanks for your explanation. :)

its kind of weird if you compare it, christians and muslims use the father, jews for the most part, the mother. so a christian father and jewish mother both religions claim the kid, jewish father, muslim mother, neither does.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 



http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilont ... ilizations

User avatar
Daxe
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Posts: 434
Founded: Nov 14, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Daxe » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:31 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
Daxe wrote:Oh, I see. Thanks for your explanation. :)

its kind of weird if you compare it, christians and muslims use the father, jews for the most part, the mother. so a christian father and jewish mother both religions claim the kid, jewish father, muslim mother, neither does.

It's just an example to say that you can't be a part of a ethny by a religion. Ethny is defined by genetical heredity, and not by religion. Ok for tribe, but not for ethny, because it is wrong...

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Kingdom of Israel
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Founded: Sep 02, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kingdom of Israel » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:37 pm

Daxe wrote:
Vazdania wrote:Well its actually an ethno-religion. If your mother is Jewish, so are you. If you choose not to follow Judaism as a religion, you're still Jewish.

But the ethnic appelation isn't israelite? Because, a seraphad jew isn't a part of a jew ethny, but a part of a berber ethny, for example...
Plus, you are muslim if your father is muslim, but you aren't a part of a "muslim" ethny.

No no.
It's not the same thing. Well, you see, ancient nations of the Middle East (Pre-Islam), each had their own religion. (Moab had Chemosh, Pheonicia had Ba'al, Ammon had Moloch, Assyria had Assur... Israel and Judah has YHWH)
We and our cult is so ancient, so we are an ethnoreligous group, like all ancient nations.

Jews are an ethnic-genetic group.
Last edited by Kingdom of Israel on Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Last edited by Yohanan MiGush Halav on Wed Tishrei 2, 69 19:32 pm, edited 3546 times in total.

91% Nationalistic
57% Fundementalist
88% Reactionary
92% Authoritarian
31% Capitalistic
99% Militaristic
63% Anthropocentric
Jewish Ethnic Nationalism, Revisionist Zionism, Greater Israel, Capitalist Autarky, Population transfer of the Arabs, Hebrew culture and language, Militarism, Powerful government
Anti-nationalism, antisemitism, anti-Zionism, anti-Israel, Cosmopolitanism, Pacifism, Internationalism, Liberalism, Socialism, Communism, Anarchism, "two states", "bi-national state", "all-citizens state", terrorism, Nazism
Yehuddah was deleted );, Posts: +3150

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Kingdom of Israel
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1288
Founded: Sep 02, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kingdom of Israel » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:39 pm

Daxe wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:
this thread is NOT about the isrealie - pallestinian conflict. it is about judisam. if you have questions about judisiam thats fine. if you want to bitch about isreal, please take it over there.

Don't be so touchy... I am neutral towards Israël and Palestine, I am just interested in this conflict...

He's not touchy, it's just a threadjack to discuss the conflict on this thread.
Last edited by Yohanan MiGush Halav on Wed Tishrei 2, 69 19:32 pm, edited 3546 times in total.

91% Nationalistic
57% Fundementalist
88% Reactionary
92% Authoritarian
31% Capitalistic
99% Militaristic
63% Anthropocentric
Jewish Ethnic Nationalism, Revisionist Zionism, Greater Israel, Capitalist Autarky, Population transfer of the Arabs, Hebrew culture and language, Militarism, Powerful government
Anti-nationalism, antisemitism, anti-Zionism, anti-Israel, Cosmopolitanism, Pacifism, Internationalism, Liberalism, Socialism, Communism, Anarchism, "two states", "bi-national state", "all-citizens state", terrorism, Nazism
Yehuddah was deleted );, Posts: +3150

User avatar
Kingdom of Israel
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1288
Founded: Sep 02, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kingdom of Israel » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:41 pm

Daxe wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:its kind of weird if you compare it, christians and muslims use the father, jews for the most part, the mother. so a christian father and jewish mother both religions claim the kid, jewish father, muslim mother, neither does.

It's just an example to say that you can't be a part of a ethny by a religion. Ethny is defined by genetical heredity, and not by religion. Ok for tribe, but not for ethny, because it is wrong...

All relevant Y-DNA studies have concluded that the majority of the paternal genetic heritage among Ashkenazim and other Jewish communities is similar to those found dominating Middle Eastern populations, and probably originated there. A smaller but still significant part of the Ashkenazi male-line population is more likely to have originated from European populations.


In a 2009 study by Kopelman et al., four Jewish groups, Ashkenazi, Turkish, Moroccan and Tunisian, were found to share a common origin from the Middle East, with more recent admixture that has resulted in "intermediate placement of the Jewish populations compared to European and Middle Eastern populations".


-Wikipedia
Last edited by Yohanan MiGush Halav on Wed Tishrei 2, 69 19:32 pm, edited 3546 times in total.

91% Nationalistic
57% Fundementalist
88% Reactionary
92% Authoritarian
31% Capitalistic
99% Militaristic
63% Anthropocentric
Jewish Ethnic Nationalism, Revisionist Zionism, Greater Israel, Capitalist Autarky, Population transfer of the Arabs, Hebrew culture and language, Militarism, Powerful government
Anti-nationalism, antisemitism, anti-Zionism, anti-Israel, Cosmopolitanism, Pacifism, Internationalism, Liberalism, Socialism, Communism, Anarchism, "two states", "bi-national state", "all-citizens state", terrorism, Nazism
Yehuddah was deleted );, Posts: +3150

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Daxe
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Posts: 434
Founded: Nov 14, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Daxe » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:41 pm

Kingdom of Israel wrote:
Daxe wrote:But the ethnic appelation isn't israelite? Because, a seraphad jew isn't a part of a jew ethny, but a part of a berber ethny, for example...
Plus, you are muslim if your father is muslim, but you aren't a part of a "muslim" ethny.

No no.
It's not the same thing. Well, you see, ancient nations of the Middle East (Pre-Islam), each had their own religion.
We and our cult is so ancient, so we are an ethnoreligous group, like all ancient nations.

Jews are an ethnic-genetic group.

Yes, but technicaly, this approach of jews is wrong (for me, I don't know your opinion). Because, jews are the believers of Judaïsm, and Judaïsm is a religion. But, jews can be arabs or israelits...
Last edited by Daxe on Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kingdom of Israel
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Founded: Sep 02, 2013
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Postby Kingdom of Israel » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:45 pm

Daxe wrote:
Kingdom of Israel wrote:No no.
It's not the same thing. Well, you see, ancient nations of the Middle East (Pre-Islam), each had their own religion.
We and our cult is so ancient, so we are an ethnoreligous group, like all ancient nations.

Jews are an ethnic-genetic group.

Yes, but technicaly, this approach of jews is wrong. Because, jews are the believers of Judaïsm, and Judaïsm is a religion. But, jews can be arabs, israelits, or vikings...

Not really.
Technically a convert is a Ger. And according to Orthodox Judaism it will be allowed to marry him.

Luckily Judaism is against conversions to Judaism.


Plus, no. A Jew is an ethnic definition. We aren't called AM Yisrael or HaAM Hayehudi for nothing, AM means "Nation". And as you can see, we are an obvious ethnic-genetic group.

People make that mistake that Jews are just a religion many times- because in modern times usually nations don't have their own tribal religion, but we do.
If Frenchmen had the religion Frenchaism, people would think they are just a religion as well...
Last edited by Yohanan MiGush Halav on Wed Tishrei 2, 69 19:32 pm, edited 3546 times in total.

91% Nationalistic
57% Fundementalist
88% Reactionary
92% Authoritarian
31% Capitalistic
99% Militaristic
63% Anthropocentric
Jewish Ethnic Nationalism, Revisionist Zionism, Greater Israel, Capitalist Autarky, Population transfer of the Arabs, Hebrew culture and language, Militarism, Powerful government
Anti-nationalism, antisemitism, anti-Zionism, anti-Israel, Cosmopolitanism, Pacifism, Internationalism, Liberalism, Socialism, Communism, Anarchism, "two states", "bi-national state", "all-citizens state", terrorism, Nazism
Yehuddah was deleted );, Posts: +3150

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Kingdom of Israel
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Founded: Sep 02, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kingdom of Israel » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:46 pm

Daxe wrote:
Kingdom of Israel wrote:No no.
It's not the same thing. Well, you see, ancient nations of the Middle East (Pre-Islam), each had their own religion.
We and our cult is so ancient, so we are an ethnoreligous group, like all ancient nations.

Jews are an ethnic-genetic group.

Yes, but technicaly, this approach of jews is wrong (for me, I don't know your opinion). Because, jews are the believers of Judaïsm, and Judaïsm is a religion. But, jews can be arabs or israelits...

By the way, Jews can't be Arabs. Just like an Arab can't be Chinese.
Last edited by Yohanan MiGush Halav on Wed Tishrei 2, 69 19:32 pm, edited 3546 times in total.

91% Nationalistic
57% Fundementalist
88% Reactionary
92% Authoritarian
31% Capitalistic
99% Militaristic
63% Anthropocentric
Jewish Ethnic Nationalism, Revisionist Zionism, Greater Israel, Capitalist Autarky, Population transfer of the Arabs, Hebrew culture and language, Militarism, Powerful government
Anti-nationalism, antisemitism, anti-Zionism, anti-Israel, Cosmopolitanism, Pacifism, Internationalism, Liberalism, Socialism, Communism, Anarchism, "two states", "bi-national state", "all-citizens state", terrorism, Nazism
Yehuddah was deleted );, Posts: +3150

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Daxe
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Founded: Nov 14, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Daxe » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:48 pm

Kingdom of Israel wrote:
Daxe wrote:Yes, but technicaly, this approach of jews is wrong (for me, I don't know your opinion). Because, jews are the believers of Judaïsm, and Judaïsm is a religion. But, jews can be arabs or israelits...

By the way, Jews can't be Arabs. Just like an Arab can't be Chinese.

An arab can be chinese... "Chinese" is a nationality...

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Kingdom of Israel
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Founded: Sep 02, 2013
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Postby Kingdom of Israel » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:49 pm

Daxe wrote:
Kingdom of Israel wrote:By the way, Jews can't be Arabs. Just like an Arab can't be Chinese.

An arab can be chinese... "Chinese" is a nationality...

And nationality is based on ethnicity.
Nationality =/= Citizenship
Last edited by Kingdom of Israel on Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Last edited by Yohanan MiGush Halav on Wed Tishrei 2, 69 19:32 pm, edited 3546 times in total.

91% Nationalistic
57% Fundementalist
88% Reactionary
92% Authoritarian
31% Capitalistic
99% Militaristic
63% Anthropocentric
Jewish Ethnic Nationalism, Revisionist Zionism, Greater Israel, Capitalist Autarky, Population transfer of the Arabs, Hebrew culture and language, Militarism, Powerful government
Anti-nationalism, antisemitism, anti-Zionism, anti-Israel, Cosmopolitanism, Pacifism, Internationalism, Liberalism, Socialism, Communism, Anarchism, "two states", "bi-national state", "all-citizens state", terrorism, Nazism
Yehuddah was deleted );, Posts: +3150

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Daxe
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Founded: Nov 14, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Daxe » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:51 pm

Kingdom of Israel wrote:
Daxe wrote:An arab can be chinese... "Chinese" is a nationality...

And nationality is based on ethnicity.
Nationality =/= Citizenship

No, it's wrong.

I'm a french man, but my ethny IS NOT french. I've got berber and saudian arabia ethnic origines.


I misunderstood your opinion, sorry. :p
Last edited by Daxe on Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ethel mermania
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Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:54 pm

Daxe wrote:
Kingdom of Israel wrote:No no.
It's not the same thing. Well, you see, ancient nations of the Middle East (Pre-Islam), each had their own religion.
We and our cult is so ancient, so we are an ethnoreligous group, like all ancient nations.

Jews are an ethnic-genetic group.

Yes, but technicaly, this approach of jews is wrong (for me, I don't know your opinion). Because, jews are the believers of Judaïsm, and Judaïsm is a religion. But, jews can be arabs or israelits...


but once you sign up, so to speak, you are in. you are expected to marry into the group and become a full fledged member of the group. the arab or persian jew is considered a jew as much as the isrealie one. there is no probition against marriage to any of the other jews.

(except to my grandmother, but that is a different story for a different day).
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 



http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilont ... ilizations

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Conscentia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26681
Founded: Feb 04, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Conscentia » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:55 pm

Kingdom of Israel wrote:
Daxe wrote:An arab can be chinese... "Chinese" is a nationality...

And nationality is based on ethnicity.
Nationality =/= Citizenship

No, it is not based on ethnicity.
Nationality is the legal relationship between a person and a nation state. It differs technically and legally from citizenship, although in most modern countries all nationals are citizens of the state and all citizens are nationals of the state.
Last edited by Conscentia on Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ethel mermania
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Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Dec 25, 2013 5:16 pm

sweet baby jesus, the chinese place was packed, not a table for 3 hours, so it was the the greek diner for this wandering jew.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 



http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilont ... ilizations

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Leningrad Union
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Founded: Jul 13, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Leningrad Union » Wed Dec 25, 2013 5:28 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:sweet baby jesus, the chinese place was packed, not a table for 3 hours, so it was the the greek diner for this wandering jew.

I just ate it last night. I made myself dinner tonight.

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Menassa
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Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Menassa » Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:35 pm

Daxe wrote:Can I join this thread. I am not jew (actually, I'm muslim), but I'm interested in the israëlo-palestinian conflict. :)

You are certainly welcome to ask questions, probing and understanding through dialogue and questions are an essential part of the Jewish religion.
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Menassa
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Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Menassa » Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:36 pm

St James Puppet NationVille wrote:I have a question. I'm not Jewish so I wouldn't now? Despite the fact that it is traditionally a Christan holiday, do some Jews celebrate Christmas but focusing on the whole Santa thing?

No, I don't believe so... I mean when I was a child in an Orthodox community the concept of 'Santa' is something we laughed at... like the tooth fairy.
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Leningrad Union
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6184
Founded: Jul 13, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Leningrad Union » Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:37 pm

Menassa wrote:
St James Puppet NationVille wrote:I have a question. I'm not Jewish so I wouldn't now? Despite the fact that it is traditionally a Christan holiday, do some Jews celebrate Christmas but focusing on the whole Santa thing?

No, I don't believe so... I mean when I was a child in an Orthodox community the concept of 'Santa' is something we laughed at... like the tooth fairy.

Same for me in the secular household...

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Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33837
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Menassa » Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:38 pm

Daxe wrote:
Vazdania wrote:There is actually an Israeli-Palestinian Conflict thread already, but you're welcome to discuss Judaism here.

Ah, I didn't know that. :S

Actually, I want to ask a question, I never understand why some people say "Jewish Atheist" rather than "Atheist". Judaism is a religion, isn't it? :eyebrow:

A person who is born of a Jewish mother cannot ever leave Judaism to the extent that they need to 're-convert' to enter it.

People can state that they don't believe in a God but keep Jewish 'customs'

To me that seems like trying to grab all the easy and fun parts of the religion with out all the vital hard work... and seems rather baseless... coming from someone who has tried it.
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33837
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Menassa » Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:39 pm

Daxe wrote:
Kingdom of Israel wrote:No no.
It's not the same thing. Well, you see, ancient nations of the Middle East (Pre-Islam), each had their own religion.
We and our cult is so ancient, so we are an ethnoreligous group, like all ancient nations.

Jews are an ethnic-genetic group.

Yes, but technicaly, this approach of jews is wrong (for me, I don't know your opinion). Because, jews are the believers of Judaïsm, and Judaïsm is a religion. But, jews can be arabs or israelits...

As I stated it's sort of an ethnicity, a child of a Jewish mother does not need to convert to join the religion... merely start practicing.. a child born of a Jewish mother is Jewish... by blood.
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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