Jewish Discussion Thread

[Menassa]

God knows if he does or does not go out with an umbrella and he will reward him for not and punish him for doing so.... since it is the sabbath and he will be transgressing a law.


I don't get headaches.

But I do. I give up. -_-

I am sorry if I have unnerved you.... may I offer you an internet bagel?

[EnragedMaldivians]

But I do. I give up. -_-

I am sorry if I have unnerved you.... may I offer you an internet bagel?

Yes.

[Conserative Morality]

Humans who are greater than us (in this case Moses or Abraham) were able to understand god in his full power.

But I suppose this is where we will have to disagree because I am at least 99% sure you don't think Moses and Abraham were as great men as I do.

Find me this child that is 3 years of age and can fully understand metaphysics better than leading scientists today.... and we will continue.

Can /=/ Does

[Menassa]

I am sorry if I have unnerved you.... may I offer you an internet bagel?

Yes.

*gives bagel*

I do hope this discussion shall not hinder any more questions you have about Judaism.....

Will my hopes be fulfilled?

[Menassa]

Humans who are greater than us (in this case Moses or Abraham) were able to understand god in his full power.

But I suppose this is where we will have to disagree because I am at least 99% sure you don't think Moses and Abraham were as great men as I do.

Find me this child that is 3 years of age and can fully understand metaphysics better than leading scientists today.... and we will continue.

Can /=/ Does

Fine then.... can and does.

[Potlimitomaha]

Are you ever going to ask serious questions or just keep giving him a headache.

Do you have an answer to my question, or do you concede the point?

Does thinking about YHWH give you a headache? If so, you may want to find another God.

Asking serious questions is what this discussion thread is for. Asking stupid questions that don't really do anything except fill up the thread is a waste.

[Conserative Morality]

Asking serious questions is what this discussion thread is for. Asking stupid questions that don't really do anything except fill up the thread is a waste.

So inquiring as to how you reconcile free will and omniscience is a stupid question?

Is it because you can't answer it with anything reasonable?

[Conserative Morality]

Fine then.... can and does.

Then I don't know of any currently.

[EnragedMaldivians]

Yes.

*gives bagel*

I do hope this discussion shall not hinder any more questions you have about Judaism.....

Will my hopes be fulfilled?

Well I won't be having any more conversations with you about the implications an omniscient God existing would have on free will, since you interpret and answer my questions in a very odd way. But no I'm not hindered from asking questions about Judaism in general *shrugs*.

[Menassa]

*gives bagel*

I do hope this discussion shall not hinder any more questions you have about Judaism.....

Will my hopes be fulfilled?

Well I won't be having any more conversations with you about the implications an omniscient God existing would have on free will, since you interpret and answer my questions in a very odd way. But no I'm not hindered from asking questions about Judaism in general *shrugs*.

Daiaynu.

Fine then.... can and does.

Then I don't know of any currently.

There you have it.

[Conserative Morality]

There you have it.

I don't see what point that proves.

[Menassa]

There you have it.

I don't see what point that proves.

Just like a small child cannot and does not understand metaphysics.

So a human today cannot and does not understand god.

Again Dochek,

[Conserative Morality]

Just like a small child cannot and does not understand metaphysics.

So a human today cannot and does not understand god.

Again Dochek,

But that would feed into my point that if God cannot be understood, it is pointless to discuss any aspect of Him, and to do so is to falsely claim knowledge that cannot be had.

[Menassa]

Just like a small child cannot and does not understand metaphysics.

So a human today cannot and does not understand god.

Again Dochek,

But that would feed into my point that if God cannot be understood, it is pointless to discuss any aspect of Him, and to do so is to falsely claim knowledge that cannot be had.

So again we look to the past... of people that could understand him. Of Moses and of Abraham among others.

Which is where you and I come to an impasse.

[Conserative Morality]

So again we look to the past... of people that could understand him. Of Moses and of Abraham among others.

Which is where you and I come to an impasse.

Even if they knew, they could not express it except in terms of human knowledge - if they did not you would not be able to understand it. If you do not understand it, you cannot discuss it meaningfully. Even if they knew, you do not, and thus cannot discuss Him.

[Menassa]

So again we look to the past... of people that could understand him. Of Moses and of Abraham among others.

Which is where you and I come to an impasse.

Even if they knew, they could not express it except in terms of human knowledge - if they did not you would not be able to understand it. If you do not understand it, you cannot discuss it meaningfully. Even if they knew, you do not, and thus cannot discuss Him.

But they did understand it.... and we can thus understand them .... and attempt to stand where they stood. However feeble our attempts may be.

[Conserative Morality]

But they did understand it.... and we can thus understand them ....

Even if we accept the former, the latter does not necessarily follow. How can we understand their knowledge if we are restricted to understanding things in terms of human knowledge when they were not restricted as such?

The fact is, under your explanation, such an understanding is impossible. We may be able to follow the commands of the divine, but we cannot understand the nature of the divine on any level.

[Menassa]

But they did understand it.... and we can thus understand them ....

Even if we accept the former, the latter does not necessarily follow. How can we understand their knowledge if we are restricted to understanding things in terms of human knowledge when they were not restricted as such?

The fact is, under your explanation, such an understanding is impossible. We may be able to follow the commands of the divine, but we cannot understand the nature of the divine on any level.

We can (and are encouraged too) understand on our level of thinking.

When we find fault we look to the past and see if we can decipher their level of thinking.

Of Moses, of Abraham, and Our Rabbis of Blessed Memory.

(the our meaning my or our depending on your perception).

[Conserative Morality]

We can (and are encouraged too) understand on our level of thinking.

But by your own admission, we cannot.

When we find fault we look to the past and see if we can decipher their level of thinking.

Of Moses, of Abraham, and Our Rabbis of Blessed Memory.

See above.

Just like a small child cannot and does not understand metaphysics.

So a human today cannot and does not understand god.

Again Dochek,

Stick to the points you argue, please.

[Evraim]

Arrogance usually stems from acquisition of items such as wealth and power.

Why is it that I only hear theists and other ascetics claim this?

What of the Socialists? I thought this was one of their popular slogans.

[Grave_n_idle]

But they did understand it.... and we can thus understand them ....

Even if we accept the former, the latter does not necessarily follow. How can we understand their knowledge if we are restricted to understanding things in terms of human knowledge when they were not restricted as such?

The fact is, under your explanation, such an understanding is impossible. We may be able to follow the commands of the divine, but we cannot understand the nature of the divine on any level.

That seems like faulty logic.

We cannot comprehend infinity, but you can still count the change in your pocket. You don't have to comprehend every aspect to comprehend any aspect.

[Conserative Morality]

What of the Socialists? I thought this was one of their popular slogans.

Ascetics, except for Social Democrats.

[Conserative Morality]

That seems like faulty logic.

We cannot comprehend infinity, but you can still count the change in your pocket. You don't have to comprehend every aspect to comprehend any aspect.

If God cannot be understood at all.

Discussing him is meaningless.

If we cannot comprehend infinity, counting the change in our pocket isn't going to help our understanding of it, no matter how many pennies we have.

[Ethel mermania]

No one is destined to do anything.

Then God is not omniscient, as YHWH is often held to be.

Arrogance is a parasite.

Arrogance is the drive of personal ambition and the foundation of personal strength. All virtues are vices viewed in a different way.

I do concede if everyone would humble themselves slightly this world would be a lot better.

That's not a concession.

While god controls everything he does give humanity the right of Bechira or free-will to choose between good and between bad.... based upon desires and what have you.

Which contradicts omniscience.

no it doesn't,

just because he knows
does not mean he controls.

[Ethel mermania]

Perhaps but he still has the right to choose what he wants to do.

Looking at history (or what I believe it be history) the time that Israel sinned (or what I believe as sin) was when they were fat with their food and rich with their drink (speaking biblically). When they had many possessions and felt comfortable with the position they were in so they forgot.... they forgot who had given them all that they had. They forgot god and they had forgot their ancestors (speaking biblically).

Believe what you wish about your creation and I shall about mine.

If an omniscient God knows that Mary Sue will kill a goat on the 31st of March 2016, is there any possibility that Mary Sue will not kill a goat on the 31st of March 2016. Is it inevitable that this event will happen? If it is, does Mary Sue have any choice in the matter?

no,
yes.