Jewish Discussion Thread

[Menassa]

Perhaps but he still has the right to choose what he wants to do.

The right, but not the ability.

His actions are foreordained. God wills it.

Looking at history (or what I believe it be history) the time that Israel sinned (or what I believe as sin) was when they were fat with their food and rich with their drink (speaking biblically). When they had many possessions and felt comfortable with the position they were in so they forgot.... they forgot who had given them all that they had. They forgot god and they had forgot their ancestors (speaking biblically).

Looking at history, it is the arrogance of the Romans, who provide the very first foundation for Western Civilization, which drove them to ever-greater heights. It is fear, superstition and uncertainty that drove them into the dirt.

Believe what you wish about your creation and I shall about mine.

Just remember that whatever you are, I am not created in your God's image.

His actions are not forordained.

Then perhaps it is only the children of Israel who are held to not have arrogance then hmm?

Duly noted.

[Conserative Morality]

No. The omniscient god knows what will happen if Mary sue does or does not kill the goat. The omniscient god will punish or reward Mary sue of she does or does not kill the goat.

So God doesn't know what *will* happen.

So God is not omniscient.

[EnragedMaldivians]

If an omniscient God knows that Mary Sue will kill a goat on the 31st of March 2016, is there any possibility that Mary Sue will not kill a goat on the 31st of March 2016. Is it inevitable that this event will happen? If it is, does Mary Sue have any choice in the matter?

No. The omniscient god knows what will happen if Mary sue does or does not kill the goat. The omniscient god will punish or reward Mary sue of she does or does not kill the goat.

I don't think you really understood the question. Basically if God knows through his omniscience that person y will do x on any given date, is there any possibility that y will not do x on that date?

[Conserative Morality]

His actions are not forordained.

Then God is not omniscient.

Then perhaps it is only the children of Israel who are held to not have arrogance then hmm?

Jewish tradition is not Western tradition, so eh, sure, why not.

[Menassa]

No. The omniscient god knows what will happen if Mary sue does or does not kill the goat. The omniscient god will punish or reward Mary sue of she does or does not kill the goat.

So God doesn't know what *will* happen.

So God is not omniscient.

God knows what will happen.

God also knows what won't happen.

God also knows when the will and the won't meet.

[Menassa]

His actions are not forordained.

Then God is not omniscient.

Then perhaps it is only the children of Israel who are held to not have arrogance then hmm?

Jewish tradition is not Western tradition, so eh, sure, why not.

God is omniscient.

Then we agree.

[Conserative Morality]

God knows what will happen.

God also knows what won't happen.

God also knows when the will and the won't meet.

And he knows what will happen when the will and the won't meet. If he does, destiny. If he doesn't, no omniscient.

Pick one.

[Conserative Morality]

God is omniscient.

Then life is foreordained.

Pick one. You can't have them both unless you have some ground-breaking explanation that has eluded thinkers for over a millenium.

[EnragedMaldivians]

So God doesn't know what *will* happen.

So God is not omniscient.

God knows what will happen.

God also knows what won't happen.

God also knows when the will and the won't meet.

But does even he know what you're saying in that post?

[Menassa]

God knows what will happen.

God also knows what won't happen.

God also knows when the will and the won't meet.

And he knows what will happen when the will and the won't meet. If he does, destiny. If he doesn't, no omniscient.

Pick one.

God knows both.

He sees all and he knows all..... this may sound like babbling to you but I see it as pretty clear.

God knows if it will rain today and he knows if it will not rain today/

[Menassa]

God knows what will happen.

God also knows what won't happen.

God also knows when the will and the won't meet.

But does even he know what you're saying in that post?

My mind can exceed god yes.

[Conserative Morality]

God knows both.

He sees all and he knows all..... this may sound like babbling to you but I see it as pretty clear.

God knows if it will rain today and he knows if it will not rain today/

Then he knows if it will rain today, with 100% certainity. If he does, then it is foreordained that it will or will not rain today. If he doesn't, he's no better than the weatherman, and I may as well set up an altar to channel five.

[Hydronium]

Neutral towards Jews. Aren't Messianic Jews Christian Jews?????



Spontaneous John 3:16 God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son. Anyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life. NIRV

[Menassa]

God knows both.

He sees all and he knows all..... this may sound like babbling to you but I see it as pretty clear.

God knows if it will rain today and he knows if it will not rain today/

Then he knows if it will rain today, with 100% certainity. If he does, then it is foreordained that it will or will not rain today. If he doesn't, he's no better than the weatherman, and I may as well set up an altar to channel five.

My friend again placing god together with human knowledge is an anthropomorphism.

I know this is a tired answer and can be a bit of a dochek a stretch but still none the less.

Can a small child understand Metaphysics?

[Menassa]

neutral towards Jews. Aren't Messianic Jews Christian Jews?????

I think so.... however Jewish Christians is an oxymoronic term.

[Potlimitomaha]

God knows both.

He sees all and he knows all..... this may sound like babbling to you but I see it as pretty clear.

God knows if it will rain today and he knows if it will not rain today/

Then he knows if it will rain today, with 100% certainity. If he does, then it is foreordained that it will or will not rain today. If he doesn't, he's no better than the weatherman, and I may as well set up an altar to channel five.

Are you ever going to ask serious questions or just keep giving him a headache.

[EnragedMaldivians]

And he knows what will happen when the will and the won't meet. If he does, destiny. If he doesn't, no omniscient.

Pick one.

God knows both.

He sees all and he knows all..... this may sound like babbling to you but I see it as pretty clear.

God knows if it will rain today and he knows if it will not rain today/

So if he knows it will rain it will rain. If he knows it won't rain it won't.

If he knows a given person will go outside without an umbrella that person will go outside without an umbrella. If he knows he will go outside with an umbrella that person will go outside with the umbrella. Either way, he has about as much free will as the clouds, if God is truly omniscient.

[Conserative Morality]

My friend again placing god together with human knowledge is an anthropomorphism.

If God cannot be understood with human knowledge, He cannot be understood by human beings.

If He cannot be understood, then you trying to explain him, even with logical paradoxes, is claiming knowledge that you do not have, as a human being.

Thus, all discussions of God's abilities or characteristics are moot, as we cannot understand Him.

I know this is a tired answer and can be a bit of a dochek a stretch but still none the less.

Can a small child understand Metaphysics?

Depends on the child.

[Menassa]

God knows both.

He sees all and he knows all..... this may sound like babbling to you but I see it as pretty clear.

God knows if it will rain today and he knows if it will not rain today/

So if he knows it will rain it will rain. If he knows it won't rain it won't.

If he knows a given person will go outside without an umbrella that person will go outside without an umbrella. If he knows he will go outside with an umbrella that person will go outside with the umbrella. Either way, he has about as much free will as the clouds, if God is truly omniscient.

God knows if he does or does not go out with an umbrella and he will reward him for not and punish him for doing so.... since it is the sabbath and he will be transgressing a law.

Then he knows if it will rain today, with 100% certainity. If he does, then it is foreordained that it will or will not rain today. If he doesn't, he's no better than the weatherman, and I may as well set up an altar to channel five.

Are you ever going to ask serious questions or just keep giving him a headache.

I don't get headaches.

[Conserative Morality]

Are you ever going to ask serious questions or just keep giving him a headache.

Do you have an answer to my question, or do you concede the point?

Does thinking about YHWH give you a headache? If so, you may want to find another God.

[Menassa]

My friend again placing god together with human knowledge is an anthropomorphism.

If God cannot be understood with human knowledge, He cannot be understood by human beings.

If He cannot be understood, then you trying to explain him, even with logical paradoxes, is claiming knowledge that you do not have, as a human being.

Thus, all discussions of God's abilities or characteristics are moot, as we cannot understand Him.

I know this is a tired answer and can be a bit of a dochek a stretch but still none the less.

Can a small child understand Metaphysics?

Depends on the child.

Perhaps.... perhaps discussing God's abilities are moot... perhaps we must leave it up to tradition and people who are greater than us.

But then again... your lack of servility would not allow that would it?

And no.... no child say around 3 years of age can understand can fully Metaphysics.... at least not today.

[Hydronium]

My friend again placing god together with human knowledge is an anthropomorphism.

If God cannot be understood with human knowledge, He cannot be understood by human beings.

If He cannot be understood, then you trying to explain him, even with logical paradoxes, is claiming knowledge that you do not have, as a human being.

Thus, all discussions of God's abilities or characteristics are moot, as we cannot understand Him.

I know this is a tired answer and can be a bit of a dochek a stretch but still none the less.

Can a small child understand Metaphysics?

Depends on the child.

True, and I understand metaphysics, and exoplanetology.

[Conserative Morality]

Perhaps.... perhaps discussing God's abilities are moot... perhaps we must leave it up to tradition and people who are greater than us.

Tradition, whether or not handed down by God, does not help to understand God if He cannot be understood by human knowledge, since all knowledge must be interpreted by human beings and thus become human knowledge. People greater than you are no more capable of understanding God than you are if God cannot be understood with human knowledge.

And no.... no child say around 3 years of age can understand can fully Metaphysics.... at least not today.

There are plenty of exceptional child prodigies out there.

[EnragedMaldivians]

So if he knows it will rain it will rain. If he knows it won't rain it won't.

If he knows a given person will go outside without an umbrella that person will go outside without an umbrella. If he knows he will go outside with an umbrella that person will go outside with the umbrella. Either way, he has about as much free will as the clouds, if God is truly omniscient.

God knows if he does or does not go out with an umbrella and he will reward him for not and punish him for doing so.... since it is the sabbath and he will be transgressing a law.

Are you ever going to ask serious questions or just keep giving him a headache.

I don't get headaches.

But I do. I give up. -_-

[Menassa]

Perhaps.... perhaps discussing God's abilities are moot... perhaps we must leave it up to tradition and people who are greater than us.

Tradition, whether or not handed down by God, does not help to understand God if He cannot be understood by human knowledge, since all knowledge must be interpreted by human beings and thus become human knowledge. People greater than you are no more capable of understanding God than you are if God cannot be understood with human knowledge.

And no.... no child say around 3 years of age can understand can fully Metaphysics.... at least not today.

There are plenty of exceptional child prodigies out there.

Humans who are greater than us (in this case Moses or Abraham) were able to understand god in his full power.

But I suppose this is where we will have to disagree because I am at least 99% sure you don't think Moses and Abraham were as great men as I do.

Find me this child that is 3 years of age and can fully understand metaphysics better than leading scientists today.... and we will continue.