Ecuador: UK Threatens to Raid Embassy

[Person012345]

Other than the fact that they are harboring a criminal I can't think of any.

A criminal is someone who has been convicted of a crime, I think you've forgotten about a little concept called Innocent Until Proven Guilty.

The word he's looking for is "fugitive".

[Laerod]

How? The police can access the roof and civil aircraft are still restricted in London airspace.

Just told the Al Jazeera reporter that any slip by the coalition could in theory mean war on us. I already told you how much are fit for service in Ecuador if it happens: 6,103,748.

This could end in political disaster.

The UK isn't actually obliged to send forces to Ecuador if Correa declares war, absurd as that scenario is. Ecuador can't send anyone over. A war isn't going to happen, at worst there will be a bunch of diplomatic spats.

[Laerod]

Other than the fact that they are harboring a criminal I can't think of any.

A criminal is someone who has been convicted of a crime, I think you've forgotten about a little concept called Innocent Until Proven Guilty.

Not actually true. Regarding someone's legal status under the rule of law, yeah, but you can most certainly be criminal without ever getting convicted. Not that we know that Assange is guilty of any crime other than skipping bail, mind you.

[Laerod]

Honestly, with the level of threats that are being hurled about it, really just sort of lends credence to the notion that Assange might actually BE persecuted. If the British had just said the usual platitudes about this matter and shrugged, the idea that Assange might actually be persecuted would not have gained much weight. But whether or not it's true, the fact that they're going all balls-out about the matter really seems to make it LOOK true. As it stands, their behavior presently looks unfavorable when compared to how China handled things.

How China would handle it if a 'Chinese version of Assange' occured: Quickly, quietly, no media fuss. :P

Might want to turn on the news more often.

[The Archregimancy]

It's not an embassy like this:

(Image)

It's one flat in this building:

(Image)

Actually, he's staying in a small office that's been converted to a bedroom for him.

There continue to be several misconceptions about the nature of the Ecuadorian embassy in this thread; Farn's post above may help to clarify some of these.

1) The Ecuadorian Embassy is in a 12-room suite on the ground floor [1st floor in US terminology] of a 7-floor mansion building behind Harrods, in Knightsbridge, London (not the 3rd floor, as sometimes stated). It has no residential facilities, though a shower has now been installed for Mr Assange.

2) The Colombian Embassy is in an adjacent flat, but most of the rest of the building consists of luxury flats/apartments.

3) The Ecuadorian Embassy only controls those 12 rooms; it doesn't even control the entire floor.

4) This means that it is impossible to drive a car up to embassy premises and put Assange in the car before driving to the airport as the embassy has no specific parking premises or garage.

5) Note that access to the roof and the roof itself are likewise not part of the embassy (just in case anyone resurrects the 'fly him out in a helicopter!' fantasy).

6) The minute Mr Assange leaves the embassy and sets foot in the ground floor communal lobby (note - not leave the building; merely leave the 12 rooms of the embassy), he can be arrested as he'll no longer be in the embassy.

7) British police are already stationed in that communal lobby; they're not just waiting for him to leave the building. The right of the British police to maintain a presence in that lobby has not been contested by either the Colombian or Ecuadorian embassies.



His options are therefore highly limited. The 'smuggle him out in a diplomatic pouch' option is, as I noted earlier in this thread, almost as silly as the helicopter fantasy.

From the BBC's Q&A:

Could he be taken out of the embassy in a container?
There are strict rules relating to "diplomatic bags" which are designed to allow countries to bring their documents in and out of a host nation. Diplomatic bags can be any size that the country wants them to be and they cannot be opened or detained in transit.

But the law says they are for official materials, so it is difficult to see how Julian Assange could be put in a crate and shipped out - not least because the British authorities would have a fairly clear idea what was in the box.

Also note that even if Assange manages to circumvent all of the above and get in an embassy car, while that car cannot be searched, it can - and almost certainly would be - stopped indefinitely. Diplomatic immunity for vehicles only applies to immunity from search; it does not confer automatic freedom of passage.

Further note that the 1950 Colombia v Peru International Court of Justice case (described in previous link; also see here) established the fact that even though a country can grant asylum to an individual in their embassy, the country hosting that embassy does not have to guarantee safe passage to the asylum claimant. The irony of the latter case involving two of Ecuador's neighbours likely won't escape most people.


Given the above, he's not going anywhere for the foreseeable future.

[Bombadil]

It's not an embassy like this:

(Image)

It's one flat in this building:

(Image)

Actually, he's staying in a small office that's been converted to a bedroom for him.

There continue to be several misconceptions about the nature of the Ecuadorian embassy in this thread; Farn's post above may help to clarify some of these.

1) The Ecuadorian Embassy is in a 12-room suite on the ground floor [1st floor in US terminology] of a 7-floor mansion building behind Harrods, in Knightsbridge, London (not the 3rd floor, as sometimes stated). It has no residential facilities, though a shower has now been installed for Mr Assange.

2) The Colombian Embassy is in an adjacent flat, but most of the rest of the building consists of luxury flats/apartments.

3) The Ecuadorian Embassy only controls those 12 rooms; it doesn't even control the entire floor.

4) This means that it is impossible to drive a car up to embassy premises and put Assange in the car before driving to the airport as the embassy has no specific parking premises or garage.

5) Note that access to the roof and the roof itself are likewise not part of the embassy (just in case anyone resurrects the 'fly him out in a helicopter!' fantasy).

6) The minute Mr Assange leaves the embassy and sets foot in the ground floor communal lobby (note - not leave the building; merely leave the 12 rooms of the embassy), he can be arrested as he'll no longer be in the embassy.

7) British police are already stationed in that communal lobby; they're not just waiting for him to leave the building. The right of the British police to maintain a presence in that lobby has not been contested by either the Colombian or Ecuadorian embassies.



His options are therefore highly limited. The 'smuggle him out in a diplomatic pouch' option is, as I noted earlier in this thread, almost as silly as the helicopter fantasy.

From the BBC's Q&A:

Could he be taken out of the embassy in a container?
There are strict rules relating to "diplomatic bags" which are designed to allow countries to bring their documents in and out of a host nation. Diplomatic bags can be any size that the country wants them to be and they cannot be opened or detained in transit.

But the law says they are for official materials, so it is difficult to see how Julian Assange could be put in a crate and shipped out - not least because the British authorities would have a fairly clear idea what was in the box.

Also note that even if Assange manages to circumvent all of the above and get in an embassy car, while that car cannot be searched, it can - and almost certainly would be - stopped indefinitely. Diplomatic immunity for vehicles only applies to immunity from search; it does not confer automatic freedom of passage.

Further note that the 1950 Colombia v Peru International Court of Justice case (described in previous link; also see here) established the fact that even though a country can grant asylum to an individual in their embassy, the country hosting that embassy does not have to guarantee safe passage to the asylum claimant. The irony of the latter case involving two of Ecuador's neighbours likely won't escape most people.


Given the above, he's not going anywhere for the foreseeable future.

I suspect the old Washerwoman trick would be about right here, it's worked for centuries.

[Anacasppia]

How China would handle it if a 'Chinese version of Assange' occured: Quickly, quietly, no media fuss.

Might want to turn on the news more often.

That's one case which most of us are probably aware of to some extent or another. I'd bet someone in the Chinese authorities slipped up and whoever slipped up is in deep trouble. Besides, there are many times more cases of persons who have been silenced, tortured, or placed under house arrest and all but have not been reported in the media.

[Laerod]

His options are therefore highly limited. The 'smuggle him out in a diplomatic pouch' option is, as I noted earlier in this thread, almost as silly as the helicopter fantasy.

From the BBC's Q&A:

Could he be taken out of the embassy in a container?
There are strict rules relating to "diplomatic bags" which are designed to allow countries to bring their documents in and out of a host nation. Diplomatic bags can be any size that the country wants them to be and they cannot be opened or detained in transit.

But the law says they are for official materials, so it is difficult to see how Julian Assange could be put in a crate and shipped out - not least because the British authorities would have a fairly clear idea what was in the box.

Thank you for ruining John Rhys Davies' crowning moment of awesome in The Living Daylights, Archy. >=I

[Forsher]

There continue to be several misconceptions about the nature of the Ecuadorian embassy in this thread; Farn's post above may help to clarify some of these.

1) The Ecuadorian Embassy is in a 12-room suite on the ground floor [1st floor in US terminology] of a 7-floor mansion building behind Harrods, in Knightsbridge, London (not the 3rd floor, as sometimes stated). It has no residential facilities, though a shower has now been installed for Mr Assange.

2) The Colombian Embassy is in an adjacent flat, but most of the rest of the building consists of luxury flats/apartments.

3) The Ecuadorian Embassy only controls those 12 rooms; it doesn't even control the entire floor.

4) This means that it is impossible to drive a car up to embassy premises and put Assange in the car before driving to the airport as the embassy has no specific parking premises or garage.

5) Note that access to the roof and the roof itself are likewise not part of the embassy (just in case anyone resurrects the 'fly him out in a helicopter!' fantasy).

6) The minute Mr Assange leaves the embassy and sets foot in the ground floor communal lobby (note - not leave the building; merely leave the 12 rooms of the embassy), he can be arrested as he'll no longer be in the embassy.

7) British police are already stationed in that communal lobby; they're not just waiting for him to leave the building. The right of the British police to maintain a presence in that lobby has not been contested by either the Colombian or Ecuadorian embassies.



His options are therefore highly limited. The 'smuggle him out in a diplomatic pouch' option is, as I noted earlier in this thread, almost as silly as the helicopter fantasy.

From the BBC's Q&A:

Could he be taken out of the embassy in a container?
There are strict rules relating to "diplomatic bags" which are designed to allow countries to bring their documents in and out of a host nation. Diplomatic bags can be any size that the country wants them to be and they cannot be opened or detained in transit.

But the law says they are for official materials, so it is difficult to see how Julian Assange could be put in a crate and shipped out - not least because the British authorities would have a fairly clear idea what was in the box.

Also note that even if Assange manages to circumvent all of the above and get in an embassy car, while that car cannot be searched, it can - and almost certainly would be - stopped indefinitely. Diplomatic immunity for vehicles only applies to immunity from search; it does not confer automatic freedom of passage.

Further note that the 1950 Colombia v Peru International Court of Justice case (described in previous link; also see here) established the fact that even though a country can grant asylum to an individual in their embassy, the country hosting that embassy does not have to guarantee safe passage to the asylum claimant. The irony of the latter case involving two of Ecuador's neighbours likely won't escape most people.


Given the above, he's not going anywhere for the foreseeable future.

I suspect the old Washerwoman trick would be about right here, it's worked for centuries.

In Discworld it would work.

HE needs a disguise. A good one. And a look alike. Or some Columbian/Ecuadorian scuffle that distracts everyone. Better yet he should have Swedish assurance that he will not be going anywhere other than Ecuador or Britain or somewhere in Sweden once he arrives. Or, he needs some screwed up documents a la Kim Dotcom.

[Laerod]

Might want to turn on the news more often.

That's one case which most of us are probably aware of to some extent or another. I'd bet someone in the Chinese authorities slipped up and whoever slipped up is in deep trouble. Besides, there are many times more cases of persons who have been silenced, tortured, or placed under house arrest and all but have not been reported in the media.

Again. I suggest turning on the news more often. It's quite possible that there are a large number of dissedents that get disappeared, but people like Bo Xilai or Ai Wei Wei tend to get a large amount of media attention, as do North Korean refugees that manage to make it onto embassy grounds.

[Martean]

i first supported the UK, until the minister of industry said spain was full of mosquitoes and it was too hot. And the government are just a bunch of hypocrits, becouse the president is in Palma de Mallorca and the vice-president in Castilla-La Mancha.

Also, whith state funds several tv stations show desert beaches and street. know why? they were filming at 7:30 in the morning! i know it becousi saw one of them while i was running in Costa Ballena, Cadiz.

Go Ecuador! Go!

Edit and P.S: UK, instead of getting in diplomatic conflicts, try to make nor beatiful your country... so some tourists go there...

[Laerod]

i first supported the UK, until the minister of industry said spain was full of mosquitoes and it was too hot. And the government are just a bunch of hypocrits, becouse the president is in Palma de Mallorca and the vice-president in Castilla-La Mancha.

Also, whith state funds several tv stations show desert beaches and street. know why? they were filming at 7:30 in the morning! i know it becousi saw one of them while i was running in Costa Ballena, Cadiz.

Go Ecuador! Go! :twisted:

Have you considered supporting one side or another based on the issue, rather than unrelated issues?

[Bombadil]

I suspect the old Washerwoman trick would be about right here, it's worked for centuries.

In Discworld it would work.

HE needs a disguise. A good one. And a look alike. Or some Columbian/Ecuadorian scuffle that distracts everyone. Better yet he should have Swedish assurance that he will not be going anywhere other than Ecuador or Britain or somewhere in Sweden once he arrives. Or, he needs some screwed up documents a la Kim Dotcom.

Perhaps the Thomas Crowne Affair tactic, dress up hundreds of people in suits and bowler hats and arrange a complicated synchronised move so he escapes in the confusion.

Frankly I'm surprised it's taking him so long.

[Anacasppia]

That's one case which most of us are probably aware of to some extent or another. I'd bet someone in the Chinese authorities slipped up and whoever slipped up is in deep trouble. Besides, there are many times more cases of persons who have been silenced, tortured, or placed under house arrest and all but have not been reported in the media.

Again. I suggest turning on the news more often. It's quite possible that there are a large number of dissedents that get disappeared, but people like Bo Xilai or Ai Wei Wei tend to get a large amount of media attention, as do North Korean refugees that manage to make it onto embassy grounds.

Point was, when you start persecuting huge numbers of people, it becomes exponentially harder to keep the persecution under wraps. And by any standards, the number of persecuted persons is still far larger than the number of persons who have received media attention. From the perspective of a tyrannical state, China can be said to be a good role model for persecution - that's a reasonably good job they've been doing.

[Martean]

i first supported the UK, until the minister of industry said spain was full of mosquitoes and it was too hot. And the government are just a bunch of hypocrits, becouse the president is in Palma de Mallorca and the vice-president in Castilla-La Mancha.

Also, whith state funds several tv stations show desert beaches and street. know why? they were filming at 7:30 in the morning! i know it becousi saw one of them while i was running in Costa Ballena, Cadiz.

Go Ecuador! Go!

Have you considered supporting one side or another based on the issue, rather than unrelated issues?

not so unrelated, becouse i supported the UK becouse i thought "poor british whith the responsibility of assange the dont deserve this" but now YOU deserve it.

P.S: Assanges lawyer is Garzon, a spanish ex-judge

[Anacasppia]

In Discworld it would work.

HE needs a disguise. A good one. And a look alike. Or some Columbian/Ecuadorian scuffle that distracts everyone. Better yet he should have Swedish assurance that he will not be going anywhere other than Ecuador or Britain or somewhere in Sweden once he arrives. Or, he needs some screwed up documents a la Kim Dotcom.

Perhaps the Thomas Crowne Affair tactic, dress up hundreds of people in suits and bowler hats and arrange a complicated synchronised move so he escapes in the confusion.

Frankly I'm surprised it's taking him so long.

Perfectly feasible - but then would the police cordon and limit access to the area?

[Laerod]

Have you considered supporting one side or another based on the issue, rather than unrelated issues?

not so unrelated, becouse i supported the UK becouse i thought "poor british whith the responsibility of assange the dont deserve this" but now YOU deserve it.

P.S: Assanges lawyer is Garzon, a spanish ex-judge :(

Spanish tourism and the state it's in is utterly unrelated to whether Assange should be going to Sweden.

[The Archregimancy]

i first supported the UK, until the minister of industry said spain was full of mosquitoes and it was too hot. And the government are just a bunch of hypocrits, becouse the president is in Palma de Mallorca and the vice-president in Castilla-La Mancha.

Señor Cameron no es el presidente de nuestro país; es el primer ministro.

Y claro señor Clegg está en Castilla. La esposa de señor Clegg es una española (Miriam González Durantez), y están en la casa de los padres de señora González.

[Martean]

i first supported the UK, until the minister of industry said spain was full of mosquitoes and it was too hot. And the government are just a bunch of hypocrits, becouse the president is in Palma de Mallorca and the vice-president in Castilla-La Mancha.

Señor Cameron no es el presidente de nuestro país; es el primer ministro.

Y claro señor Clegg está en Castilla. La esposa de señor Clegg es una española (Miriam González Durantez), y están en la casa de los padres de señora González.

Rajoy también es el Primer Ministro y todos le llaman presidente, ¡qué cosas!

Sí, leí en el periódico que el señor Clegg estaba cerca de Olmedo con su mujer Española, precisamente en el artículo que hablaba de la propaganda británica para quedarse "en casa".

[Cromarty]

Señor Cameron no es el presidente de nuestro país; es el primer ministro.

Y claro señor Clegg está en Castilla. La esposa de señor Clegg es una española (Miriam González Durantez), y están en la casa de los padres de señora González.

Rajoy también es el Primer Ministro y todos le llaman presidente, ¡qué cosas!

Sí, leí en el periódico que el señor Clegg estaba cerca de Olmedo con su mujer Española, precisamente en el artículo que hablaba de la propaganda británica para quedarse "en casa".

Uh... what 'propaganda' to 'stay at home'?

[Martean]

Rajoy también es el Primer Ministro y todos le llaman presidente, ¡qué cosas!

Sí, leí en el periódico que el señor Clegg estaba cerca de Olmedo con su mujer Española, precisamente en el artículo que hablaba de la propaganda británica para quedarse "en casa".

Uh... what 'propaganda' to 'stay at home'?

"propaganda" in this case meant ads and all that, not propaganda in the "english sense" but when i stayed in london i saw ads that said "dont fly, stay at home" "support team GB by not flying" things like that

ah! there was rain too

[Yankee Empire]

You know what? I hope the Brits try it and the Ecuadorians, both military and civilian, kick their asses.

You really do live in a fantasy land.

Well he is a ron paul supporter...

[Johz]

I suspect the old Washerwoman trick would be about right here, it's worked for centuries.

In Discworld it would work.

HE needs a disguise. A good one. And a look alike. Or some Columbian/Ecuadorian scuffle that distracts everyone. Better yet he should have Swedish assurance that he will not be going anywhere other than Ecuador or Britain or somewhere in Sweden once he arrives. Or, he needs some screwed up documents a la Kim Dotcom.

If he threw all of his latest wikileaks files out of the window, I expect the frantic scuffle for their retrieval would last long enough for him to at least get down to Dover. From there, he just needs a wig, a moustache, and a fake passport, and he could be anywhere.

[Johz]

Uh... what 'propaganda' to 'stay at home'?

"propaganda" in this case meant ads and all that, not propaganda in the "english sense" but when i stayed in london i saw ads that said "dont fly, stay at home" "support team GB by not flying" things like that

ah! there was rain too

I saw those ads as well. They weren't government ones, they were actually adverts from British Airways. I found it quite interesting, actually. I wonder how much more custom they got from the olympic sponsership deal.

Nonetheless, it was scarcely propaganda, it was an advert from a company interested in making money out of the olympics.

[Martean]

"propaganda" in this case meant ads and all that, not propaganda in the "english sense" but when i stayed in london i saw ads that said "dont fly, stay at home" "support team GB by not flying" things like that

ah! there was rain too

I saw those ads as well. They weren't government ones, they were actually adverts from British Airways. I found it quite interesting, actually. I wonder how much more custom they got from the olympic sponsership deal.

Nonetheless, it was scarcely propaganda, it was an advert from a company interested in making money out of the olympics.

and when theminister of industry said spain was full of mosquitoes and was just too hot? i mean, now hes the tourist advisor?

and newspapers saying spanish beaches are without people... ect.

they Cant be without people becouse we receive 1.2 tourists per person is Spain, and only france has more tourists than Spain