govt. entitlements lead to inequality and lower growth rates

[The Mongrel Republic]

We are never going to run out of gold, oil, food, water, or any other resource because matter cannot be created or destroyed.

Tell me, how does one reconvert gas spent to power a motor back into usable gas?

Your argument is literally not worth the bandwidth required to transmit it.

Seriously, did this guy sleep through his science requirement in school? Or did they not cover the fact that even through matter cannot be destroyed, it does eventually change into forms from which there is no way to recover it. And yes, even gold suffers from entropy.

EDIT

But then, name one Anarcho-Capitalist that actually has a decent grasp on reality.

[Free Soviets]

But then, name one Anarcho-Capitalist that actually has a decent grasp on reality.

david friedman (milton's son) has a halfway decent tether to this plane of existence. then again, i don't think we've ever had an an-cap here that was big time into him. interesting...

[The Mongrel Republic]

But then, name one Anarcho-Capitalist that actually has a decent grasp on reality.

david friedman (milton's son) has a halfway decent tether to this plane of existence. then again, i don't think we've ever had an an-cap here that was big time into him. interesting...

I think that proves my point, don't you think?

[Liriena]

We are never going to run out of gold, oil, food, water, or any other resource because matter cannot be created or destroyed.

Tell me, how does one reconvert gas spent to power a motor back into usable gas?

Your argument is literally not worth the bandwidth required to transmit it.

Seriously...

I can't even imagine how someone without a learning disability could say something so unbelievably idiotic. I mean, if you can't grasp a concept as simple as the inherent scarcity of resources, then how can one even dare speak of economy, when economy is a science that is based on the very concept of resources being scarce.

[The Mongrel Republic]

Tell me, how does one reconvert gas spent to power a motor back into usable gas?

Your argument is literally not worth the bandwidth required to transmit it.

Seriously...

I can't even imagine how someone without a learning disability could say something so unbelievably idiotic. I mean, if you can't grasp a concept as simple as the inherent scarcity of resources, then how can one even dare speak of economy, when economy is a science that is based on the very concept of resources being scarce.

IKR?!

[The Mongol Ilkhanate]

What a nasty word, entitlements. I paid hundreds of thousands of dollars into Social Security. When I first entered the system I was told it was to be like a mandatory pension fund; I had to buy into it, but it would pay me back, just like an annuity or a cash value insurance policy.

I still look at it that way in principle. That's my money; i want it back.

Hands off.

Then you should not have allowed your politicians to raid it, which is how Clinton balanced the budget.

[The Mongrel Republic]

What a nasty word, entitlements. I paid hundreds of thousands of dollars into Social Security. When I first entered the system I was told it was to be like a mandatory pension fund; I had to buy into it, but it would pay me back, just like an annuity or a cash value insurance policy.

I still look at it that way in principle. That's my money; i want it back.

Hands off.

Then you should not have allowed your politicians to raid it, which is how Clinton balanced the budget.

Sauce?

[AuSable River]

We are never going to run out of gold, oil, food, water, or any other resource because matter cannot be created or destroyed.

Tell me, how does one reconvert gas spent to power a motor back into usable gas?

Your argument is literally not worth the bandwidth required to transmit it.

This is ECO 101 for liberals, particularly those who are closed-minded and dismiss facts out of hand as "not worth the bandwidth to....".

1) as the supply of oil decreases, the price rises.

2) as the price rises, consumption decreases

3) as the price rises, conservation methods increase

4) as the price rises, production increases

5) as the price rises, production efficiencies increase

6) as these things occur -- the supply and the price of oil increases.

as a result of this dynamic, oil will never run out.

Long before oil reaches any serious level of scarcity -- it will be replaced by other forms of energy as oil has replaced steam, as steam replaced horses, as horses replaced human power, et al.

You stand corrected.

[AuSable River]

you miss the main point:

namely that government can increase the money supply without any shred of accountability or transparency -- and pass this largesse onto their cronies in the private and public sector before its cruel effects on food, energy, water, housing, et al trickle down to Main Street.

This is despotic and immoral.

Secondly, government increases the money supply without any regard to its unintended economic consequences -- hence when government inflates it does so to fund schemes that under fiscally responsible mechanisms would never see the light of day -- it is a dishonest way to fund politically motivated schemes without having to increase taxes or reduce spending. Government simply passes the costs, inflation, and deficit onto future generations --- and why not ?

THey dont vote.

No, YOU are missing the main point - 'increasing the money supply' is not something that only happens because of fiat currency. Indeed, fiat currency is arguably the strongest defense AGAINST arbitrary money supply fluctuations.

Seriously dude, this is the last time I respond to this nonsense.

It is far more difficult to mine gold then to depress a keystroke on a computer at the Fed -- or even print money at the Treasury.

I dont know how simpler it can get.

Moreover, gold mining will self-regulate the circulation of currency in the economy --- as the value of gold increases because the demand exceeds the supply -- it becomes more profitable to mine.

In contrast, as the supply of gold expands, its marginal value decreases, hence production declines.

This dynamic is based on free market voluntary and competitive mechanisms.

The government simply prints money to satisfy political goals with little regard for economic sustainability.

[Free Soviets]

We are never going to run out of gold, oil, food, water, or any other resource because matter cannot be created or destroyed.

This is ECO 101 for liberals, particularly those who are closed-minded and dismiss facts out of hand as "not worth the bandwidth to....".

1) as the supply of oil decreases, the price rises.

2) as the price rises, consumption decreases

3) as the price rises, conservation methods increase

4) as the price rises, production increases

5) as the price rises, production efficiencies increase

6) as these things occur -- the supply and the price of oil increases.

as a result of this dynamic, oil will never run out.

Long before oil reaches any serious level of scarcity -- it will be replaced by other forms of energy as oil has replaced steam, as steam replaced horses, as horses replaced human power, et al.

You stand corrected.

again, are you trolling or do you honestly not understand how these two posts don't go together at all? i mean, seriously dude, assuming trolling is the charitable option here...

[The Mongrel Republic]

Tell me, how does one reconvert gas spent to power a motor back into usable gas?

Your argument is literally not worth the bandwidth required to transmit it.

This is ECO 101 for liberals, particularly those who are closed-minded and dismiss facts out of hand as "not worth the bandwidth to....".

1) as the supply of oil decreases, the price rises.

2) as the price rises, consumption decreases

3) as the price rises, conservation methods increase

4) as the price rises, production increases

5) as the price rises, production efficiencies increase

6) as these things occur -- the supply and the price of oil increases.

as a result of this dynamic, oil will never run out.

Long before oil reaches any serious level of scarcity -- it will be replaced by other forms of energy as oil has replaced steam, as steam replaced horses, as horses replaced human power, et al.

You stand corrected.

[AuSable River]

They go to jail for fraud.

Moreover, the moment the cheaters debased their currency, it would easily be uncovered and --- I guar--ran -- damn --tee you that every competitor would be advertising the fraud on every electronic and print media across the civilized world.

There would be a fair trial in open court between a plaintiff and a defendent. Of course, if a verdict was passed that wasnt consistent with the evidence -- then any potential bribery would be immediately suspected and those involved would be subject to criminal prosecution as well, or in the very least, increased scrutiny and removal later on.

In contrast, the Fed, government, and their cronies in the public and private sector can pretty much 'game' the system for all its worth without any threat of being uncovered, much less punished for it.

In sum, you can fool or bribe a bureaucrat who isnt risking his own money either way. You cant bribe a consumer with shoddy goods and services unless their irrational and you cant fool them with shoddy goods and services for long because, unlike bureaucrats, they are the ones that either benefit or suffer directly from poor choices --- hence they always exercise due diligence to a far greater extent than the bureaucrat or politician.

How do you guarantee that they're ever caught?

This is something that always bugged me about the free market types. They always assume that anyone not playing fair will be found out and driven out of business. This asumes many things:

1. That there will exist independent people willing and able to rat them out to the public at large. Where will these groups get the ability to get their information out to such a large populace (assuming it's even only statewide), and if such a group existed, why wouldn't the company they're supposed to be a watchdog for try to pay them off? (The post you qouted said that said watchdogs were in the pocket of the larger business, and you didn't address that at all)

2. That people will be able to afford to care. If you're poor and the only food you can afford is potentially laced with mold or harmful bacteria, and your choices are to eat it or starve, you're going to eat it, and risk getting very sick. And there is no reason to think that a company with safer products at the same price will automaically move in very quickly, because it takes a lot of time and capital to set up a business like that, and get a good amout of markt penetration.

How do you guarantee any criminal is caught ? Especially someone who counterfeits $20 bills?

But it is incredibly easy to measure the purity of gold in a coin and prosecute the culprit.

it is like transmitting counterfeit money, only the counterfeiter is a business that can be readily identified.

of course, if someone wants to counterfeit gold coins, it is up to the business that receives the coins to determine the level of purity. There are probably plenty of low tech technologies that can easily measure gold content by myriad means.

And dude, you spin an incredible fantastic web --- if this, if that, when that, et al.


the bottom line is that a watchdog will go out of business if they cease to provide a reliable service.

what you really fear exists today --- namely that the government watchdog is bought and paid for by special interests.

and your worried about a private sector crook who faces competition and can easily be replaced --- and paradoxically you love the government watchdog that is the most corrupt, monopolistic and unaccountable entity known to man.

indeed, governments not only have cheated more people than any other entity in history --- they have enslaved, tortured, and murdered more than any religion, business, or other civil society enterprise.

[AuSable River]

the dollar has not increased in value or purchasing power since 1913 --- its purchasing power has declined 96% !!!

and what, exactly, do you think this means? are we now poorer than the people of 1913? has our productive capacity and GDP fallen below what it was?


inflation exists; startling details at 10. and after that, stay tuned for our special report, "deflation fucking sucks".

If you had held gold since 1913 -- you would have hundreds of times more purchasing power with that gold than if you had held dollars which have seen their purchasing power decline to almost nothing.

[Not Safe For Work]

No, YOU are missing the main point - 'increasing the money supply' is not something that only happens because of fiat currency. Indeed, fiat currency is arguably the strongest defense AGAINST arbitrary money supply fluctuations.

Seriously dude, this is the last time I respond to this nonsense.

It is far more difficult to mine gold then to depress a keystroke on a computer at the Fed -- or even print money at the Treasury.

I dont know how simpler it can get.

Moreover, gold mining will self-regulate the circulation of currency in the economy --- as the value of gold increases because the demand exceeds the supply -- it becomes more profitable to mine.

In contrast, as the supply of gold expands, its marginal value decreases, hence production declines.

This dynamic is based on free market voluntary and competitive mechanisms.

The government simply prints money to satisfy political goals with little regard for economic sustainability.

You started well. "Seriously dude, this is the last time I respond to this nonsense."

Given that that was the least bullshit part of your response, perhaps that's where you should have stopped?

Seriously, we briefly touched on the Panics of 1873 and 1893 already. What you're saying isn't just bullshit, it's bullshit that has already been SHOWN to be bullshit, right here in the US.

[AuSable River]

They go to jail for fraud.

Moreover, the moment the cheaters debased their currency, it would easily be uncovered and --- I guar--ran -- damn --tee you that every competitor would be advertising the fraud on every electronic and print media across the civilized world.

There would be a fair trial in open court between a plaintiff and a defendant. Of course, if a verdict was passed that wasn't consistent with the evidence -- then any potential bribery would be immediately suspected and those involved would be subject to criminal prosecution as well, or in the very least, increased scrutiny and removal later on.

In contrast, the Fed, government, and their cronies in the public and private sector can pretty much 'game' the system for all its worth without any threat of being uncovered, much less punished for it.

In sum, you can fool or bribe a bureaucrat who isnt risking his own money either way. You cant bribe a consumer with shoddy goods and services unless their irrational and you cant fool them with shoddy goods and services for long because, unlike bureaucrats, they are the ones that either benefit or suffer directly from poor choices --- hence they always exercise due diligence to a far greater extent than the bureaucrat or politician.

I never said that there were any jails, now did I?

And consumers are irrational, or rationally ignorant.

You place too much faith in the common man, sir; a world run by gold would run solely off of the following version of the Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules.

Your statement that consumers are irrational and ignorant plays into the hands of despotic masters.

They love you, because without you, they could never gain power over YOU.

Read this interesting ditty by hazlitt that, IMHO, which tends to provide a logical, rational, and effective refutation to your ideological worldview -- at least I think any independent thinking and objective analysts will agree with me (try reading it thoughtfully, you will never see anything like this in your college classes that are hotbeds of Marxism -- not surprisingly because your under-worked over paid professors benefit greatly from statism):

(Liberal think) the people who have earned money are too shortsighted, hysterical,rapacious, and idiotic to be trusted to invest it themselves. The money must be seized from them by the politicians, who will invest it with almost perfect foresight and complete disinterestedness(as illustrated, for example, by the economic planners of Soviet Russia). For people who are risking their own money will of course risk it foolishly and recklessly, whereas politicians and bureaucrats who are risking other people’s money will do so only with the greatest care and after long and profound study. Naturally the businessmen who have earned money have shown that they have no foresight; but the politicians who haven’t earned the money will exhibit almost perfect foresight. The businessmen who are seeking to make cheaper and better than their competitors the goods that consumers wish,and whose success depends upon the degree to which they satisfy consumers, will of course have no concern for “the general social advantage”; but the politicians who keep themselves in power by conciliating pressure groups will of course have only concern for “the general social advantage.”They will not dissipate the money. . . . There will never be even a hint of bribery, or corruption.

[Geilinor]

Where do you get the "inequality" part? Have you looked at income inequality rates in other developed economies?
"despite the fact that the oldest 12% possess over 55% of the wealth -- these citizens receive an average of $32,000 in federal government assistance." How do old people have 55% of the wealth? Source?
And they aren't entitlements. Workers paid taxes to fund them, people don't feel entitled, they paid for the programs.

[AuSable River]

We are never going to run out of gold, oil, food, water, or any other resource because matter cannot be created or destroyed.

This is ECO 101 for liberals, particularly those who are closed-minded and dismiss facts out of hand as "not worth the bandwidth to....".

1) as the supply of oil decreases, the price rises.

2) as the price rises, consumption decreases

3) as the price rises, conservation methods increase

4) as the price rises, production increases

5) as the price rises, production efficiencies increase

6) as these things occur -- the supply and the price of oil increases.

as a result of this dynamic, oil will never run out.

Long before oil reaches any serious level of scarcity -- it will be replaced by other forms of energy as oil has replaced steam, as steam replaced horses, as horses replaced human power, et al.

You stand corrected.

again, are you trolling or do you honestly not understand how these two posts don't go together at all? i mean, seriously dude, assuming trolling is the charitable option here...

Everything I have stated is fact.

for example, you have not refuted a single post I have made in this entire thread with any substantive, factual or empirically supported argument.

YOu cant dispute supply and demand mechanics.

you cant dispute the laws of physical science that states energy cannot be created or destroyed -- hence we will never run out.

and you cant dispute the fact that we have never run out of a precious metal, food, water, or any other natural resource.

Indeed, I challenge you to name a single natural resource that has been exhausted despite the fact that mankind has reached 7 billion.

[Free Soviets]

and what, exactly, do you think this means? are we now poorer than the people of 1913? has our productive capacity and GDP fallen below what it was?


inflation exists; startling details at 10. and after that, stay tuned for our special report, "deflation fucking sucks".

If you had held gold since 1913 -- you would have hundreds of times more purchasing power with that gold than if you had held dollars which have seen their purchasing power decline to almost nothing.

yeah, and? how is this supposed to be a mark against dollars. dollars ain't meant for stuffing mattresses, son.


meanwhile, on normal-earth

[Silent Majority]

and you cant dispute the fact that we have never run out of a precious metal, food, water, or any other natural resource.

If we've never run out of food, why do people starve?

[AuSable River]

Seriously dude, this is the last time I respond to this nonsense.

It is far more difficult to mine gold then to depress a keystroke on a computer at the Fed -- or even print money at the Treasury.

I dont know how simpler it can get.

Moreover, gold mining will self-regulate the circulation of currency in the economy --- as the value of gold increases because the demand exceeds the supply -- it becomes more profitable to mine.

In contrast, as the supply of gold expands, its marginal value decreases, hence production declines.

This dynamic is based on free market voluntary and competitive mechanisms.

The government simply prints money to satisfy political goals with little regard for economic sustainability.

You started well. "Seriously dude, this is the last time I respond to this nonsense."

Given that that was the least bullshit part of your response, perhaps that's where you should have stopped?

Seriously, we briefly touched on the Panics of 1873 and 1893 already. What you're saying isn't just bullshit, it's bullshit that has already been SHOWN to be bullshit, right here in the US.

Explain the panics of 1873 and 1893, so I can rebut your explanation.

You cant simply throw some talking points out there without defending them with at least some base explanation of why they support your argument (whatever that is )

I eagerly await your hypotheses on these 'panics' and how they debunk my assertion that the Fed and government uses monetary policy to:

1) dishonestly pay for schemes that wouldnt see the light of day if government had to tax and/or reduce spending -- hence fiat currency allows government to temporarily disregard economic reality without having to balance the budget and pass the costs of inflationary policies well into the future where the mechanisms and who was responsible are far more difficult to identify (at least to the uneducated masses and leftwing ideologues)

2) allocate money to cronies in banking and finance before that money causes inflation in the economy -- thereby rewarding political connected cronies at the expense of the elderly on fixed income and the poor who have to pay significantly more for food, gas, housing, et al.

[Geilinor]

If you had held gold since 1913 -- you would have hundreds of times more purchasing power with that gold than if you had held dollars which have seen their purchasing power decline to almost nothing.

yeah, and? how is this supposed to be a mark against dollars. dollars ain't meant for stuffing mattresses, son.


meanwhile, on normal-earth

Also the inflation graph.

Do you see the 25% to -15% inflation change in one year? The gold price fluctuates wildly.

[AuSable River]

and you cant dispute the fact that we have never run out of a precious metal, food, water, or any other natural resource.

If we've never run out of food, why do people starve?

Because they live in command economies that undermine the laws of supply and demand.

See North Korea and South Korea --- same people, same peninsula, same language, same climate, et al.

Yet one state is starving -- one has surpluses.

[The Mongrel Republic]

and you cant dispute the fact that we have never run out of a precious metal, food, water, or any other natural resource.

If we've never run out of food, why do people starve?

[Norstal]

Indeed, I challenge you to name a single natural resource that has been exhausted despite the fact that mankind has reached 7 billion.

Dodos.
Wooly Mammoths.

Or have you invented a perpetual motion machine?

[Silent Majority]

If we've never run out of food, why do people starve?

Because they live in command economies that undermine the laws of supply and demand.

See North Korea and South Korea --- same people, same peninsula, same language, same climate, et al.

Yet one state is starving -- one has surpluses.

People starve all over the world, not just in North Korea.