Who was worse,Hitler or Stalin?

[National Socialists of America]

Stalin. Can't believe we didn't let Nazi Germany steamroll the Soviet Union during WWII...

Erm, Nazis lost Battle of Moscow, and were stalemated at Leningrad, before American aid was making a substantial contribution. Also, Nazis declared war on the US. Soviets didn't. Of course knowing all this would require passing middle school history.

Are you high? Without those supplies, Moscow would've fallen within weeks. Stalin even admitted that if it weren't for US and British aid, Russia would'nt have had a chance in hell. Also what does middle school history have to do with this? Tone it down a bit and stop taking post's itt so personally.

[Traxa]

Stalin never tried to exterminate an entire race.

A race no, but thats not really any different from the systematic execution of millions for political ideology or perceived threats to communist rule in the Soviet Union, you're also completely ignoring the millions that died during deportation and gulags.

Hitler killed ~8-12 millon people Stalin killed ~15 million excluding the millions that died from famine which one could argue were part of Stalins repression efforts

[Distruzio]

That you were creating an argument where there wasn't one.



I did that as well.

No you didn't. I explained to you that, despite Hitler's nefarious intentions, his actions treated everyone who wasn't of a "superior race" as subhuman, i.e. no individuality, and guaranteed perpetual warfare to the "superior race", and warfare is not an individualized activity. On the other hand Stalin's actions allowed individual activities, (those needed to reproduce,) in spite of his rhetoric.

I think you should calm down a bit, and reread my first post. Then think on it.

If Hitler believed that individuality was best identified with and personified by the State and yet insisted that ubermensch existed, then that must mean the State didn't recognize them. I'm not disagreeing with you that certain classes and races were dehumanized and lost their individuality. However, that same supremacist perspective that you decry is what also made Hitler's regime marginally more individualized than that of Stalins. Why? Because under Stalin all were equally dehumanized and robbed of their individuality. Whatever individuality you point out favoring Stalinist Russia is, in reality, a mark against it. Those athletes and scientists and so forth were only recognized in relation to their subservience to the State. It was the Soviet State that made them who they were. Whereas in Nazi Germany, the Fatherland was made into what it was by the individuals comprising it (the persecuted minorities not counting as individuals).

I'm not disagreeing that politicians should be judged according to their actions.

I'm merely elaborating on why I think Stalin was worse, and how I arrived at that conclusion. It was their ideological differences - not the differences in their propensity for mass murder - that sways me.

[Napkiraly]

Erm, Nazis lost Battle of Moscow, and were stalemated at Leningrad, before American aid was making a substantial contribution. Also, Nazis declared war on the US. Soviets didn't. Of course knowing all this would require passing middle school history.

Are you high? Without those supplies, Moscow would've fallen within weeks. Stalin even admitted that if it weren't for US and British aid, Russia would'nt have had a chance in hell. Also what does middle school history have to do with this? Tone it down a bit and stop taking post's itt so personally.

You just said you wished the Nazis had taken over the USSR. To an ethnic Russian. Do you fail to see why he might take it a bit personal considering how you just expressed that you wish the guys who would have enslaved or killed his ancestors had won?

[Distruzio]

Well, I also explained that I based my subjective evaluation on their ideological bent rather than the number of deaths directly connected to each regime as they differed only by degree.

However, their actions leading to their count of deaths differ a lot. Where Stalin made many people starve on purpose to stop the rise of Ukrainian nationalism (which was not so much racist) is a lot less horrible than forcefully herding people together, denying them basic goods and than rounding them up towards concentration camps for being gassed.

Not to mention that the intent of Hitler was to destroy all Slavs, Jews, gays, lesbians, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other Untermenschen. In Mein Kampf, he stated something along the lines of "I will annihilate and completely destroy everyone who opposes me", thus signifying Hitler's intent. Hitler was hellbent on the destruction and to see the world burn, where Stalin was more a gangster who managed to forcefully starve many Ukrainians. Don't get me wrong, I believe Stalin was a mad fuck, but Hitler by far surpassed Stalin in every possible way in terms of who was worse. I'd even rather take Mao than Hitler any day, even though Mao's death count was extremely high too.

I disagree. Whole heartedly.

[National Socialists of America]

Stalin. Can't believe we didn't let Nazi Germany steamroll the Soviet Union during WWII...

So, you approve and support the genocide of Jews, gypsies, gays, lesbians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Slavs, and any other Untermenschen?

Tell me, where in my post did I say that exactly?

Not a big surprise considering your nation name

Totally irrelevant. I've already stated before that my nation does not reflect my political views, but i'm not all shocked that you would play that card. Also, a little bit ironic judging by your flag hmmm?

[Shofercia]

If you're counting Hitler's WWII civilian deaths, than saying that Stalin killed more is ignorant. Also, how the fuck's it debatable? Is someone dying from starvation in Leningrad, any different from someone dying of starvation in Southern Russia or Northern China? It's not different! What is there to debate?

Now let's look at Stalin's deaths, while ignoring shitstorians like Robert Conquest:

Gulags: 1.3-1.6 million
Purges: 700 thousand - 1.4 million
Collectivization: 7.8 million (Holodomor is included)

Total: 10.8 million


Hitler's deaths:
WWII Civilians deaths in USSR alone: 14 million
Additional Soviet POW Deaths: 3 million
And there were other countries in WWII, fighting. In Poland, 6 million civilians died. And so on.


Really not that hard to do the math.

Source? From what I've gathered, both Stalin and Hitler killed around twenty-million.

Also, I retract my earlier statement of Stalin killing more than Hitler. However their death toll seems roughly the same.

http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Stalin
http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#ww2ussr
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/mar/10/hitler-vs-stalin-who-killed-more/?pagination=false
http://www.distributedrepublic.net/archives/2006/05/01/how-many-did-stalin-really-murder/
http://democraticpeace.wordpress.com/2009/06/10/how-many-did-stalin-really-murder/

You only have 20 million for Hitler? Then you're definitely not counting WWII civilian deaths. Why don't you start with wikidorkia copy-pasta: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Total WWII Civilian Deaths, (I'm taking the average, and rounding)

USSR - 14 million
Poland - 5.5 million
Nazi Germany - 2.5 million
Yugoslavia - 600k
Romania - 500k
France - 400k
Lithuania - 400k
Czechoslovakia - 300k
Greece - 300k
Netherlands - 300k
Latvia - 200k
Italy - 200k
Austria - 100k
Belgium - 100k
UK - 100k
Estonia - 100k

That's 25.6 million alone. To this figure we can add about 4 million POWs, bringing it to roughly 30 million. As for my numbers for Stalin - declassified and unedited Soviet archives for the Gulags and Purges, Ukraine's biased and inflated number for Holodomor, and Soviet archives/estimates for the rest of Collectivization.

[Yorkopolis]

So, you approve and support the genocide of Jews, gypsies, gays, lesbians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Slavs, and any other Untermenschen?

Tell me, where in my post did I say that exactly?

Not a big surprise considering your nation name

Totally irrelevant. I've already stated before that my nation does not reflect my political views, but i'm not all shocked that you would play that card. Also, a little bit ironic judging by your flag hmmm?

Well, by stating that you support Nazi Germany steamrolling over the USSR, you pretty much support the doom of all of Europe, the destruction of all Jews living in Europe, as well as the genocide of many other groups. But, what has my flag to do with this other then it's a Prinsenvlag that was once defaced by stupid Nazis of the NSB? It has a hammer and sickle, stating my support of libertarian socialism.

[Brition]

In Nazi Germany, a vast majority of the people were free to choose their jobs, choose whether or not to smoke or drink, choose to open a business, discuss other ideological ideas (without explicit support). Contemporary sources confirm Kershaw (a historian with extensive works on Hitler) when he says that "...most people worked hardly, slept soundly, and had happy memories under peacetime National Socialist rule". Statistics will also show that in these earlier years, the terror state system was used primarily against criminals and others that the German people felt threatened by. Furthermore Hitler as an individual took a lax attitude to government, and many prominent policies in Nazi Germany, like their economic policy, was theorized and managed by individuals other than Hitler.

This is the Nazi regime; a dictator who did not dictate, over a public the majority of whom was not oppressed or persecuted. My sympathies lie with the victims of the holocaust, but that too was a product of collective decision, and the blame cannot be solely placed on Hitler; it is unthinkable to say one man can shape the world in such a way.

Strangely, many people in the former Soviet Union still revere Stalin, and I doubt that this number of people was any smaller at the time of Stalin's rule. It should however be noted that in contrast to Hitler, Stalin's obsession with the workings of various committees in his government, and his successful placement of his supporters in key positions, gave him a great deal of unspoken legal power. From this position, one would have to be blind not to see that Stalin played a key role in the abuses that went on in the Soviet Union, including among other things, forced collectivization, the confiscation of personal and private property, the imprisonment of artists, writers, soldiers and so on, not through objective racial factors, as in Hitler's Germany, but on the broad theoretical class enemies, imagined by Marx, and persecuted by Stalin, with no real consideration for the actual complicity of Soviet people in their political persuasions.

Since I admire the wider freedom of thought in Nazi Germany, I am inclined to say that Stalin was worse, and will be voting to that effect. But neither men, nor their systems, were representative of any kind of democracy or freedom.

Interesting point to note, Hitler believed that authority had to be based on popularity. For me this is the defining justification for democracy. Why he was suspicious of democracy I will never know.

[Shofercia]

I hate them both, but I chose Stalin simply because of body count.


Don't use Rex Curry for information. Ever.

I don't know what is Rex Curry, I saw multiple versions of this image/data and only this one happens to be under 900 pixels wide.

That image is by Rex Curry.

Erm, Nazis lost Battle of Moscow, and were stalemated at Leningrad, before American aid was making a substantial contribution. Also, Nazis declared war on the US. Soviets didn't. Of course knowing all this would require passing middle school history.

Are you high? Without those supplies, Moscow would've fallen within weeks. Stalin even admitted that if it weren't for US and British aid, Russia would'nt have had a chance in hell. Also what does middle school history have to do with this? Tone it down a bit and stop taking post's itt so personally.

Actually no. The Red Army would've held Moscow irrespective of America's supplies. You do realize that supplies take a while to arrive and distribute, and that only a small part actually made it to the USSR by 1941, right?

[Lucius Valentine]

You only have 20 million for Hitler? Then you're definitely not counting WWII civilian deaths. Why don't you start with wikidorkia copy-pasta: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Total WWII Civilian Deaths, (I'm taking the average, and rounding)

USSR - 14 million
Poland - 5.5 million
Nazi Germany - 2.5 million
Yugoslavia - 600k
Romania - 500k
France - 400k
Lithuania - 400k
Czechoslovakia - 300k
Greece - 300k
Netherlands - 300k
Latvia - 200k
Italy - 200k
Austria - 100k
Belgium - 100k
UK - 100k
Estonia - 100k

That's 25.6 million alone. To this figure we can add about 4 million POWs, bringing it to roughly 30 million. As for my numbers for Stalin - declassified and unedited Soviet archives for the Gulags and Purges, Ukraine's biased and inflated number for Holodomor, and Soviet archives/estimates for the rest of Collectivization.

I was wrong, then. Thanks for the information.

[Shofercia]

So, you approve and support the genocide of Jews, gypsies, gays, lesbians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Slavs, and any other Untermenschen?

Tell me, where in my post did I say that exactly?

Well you see, when Nazis took over a country, i.e. Poland, it's what they actually did. So if you're supporting Nazi takeover, you're implicitly supporting that.

[Shofercia]

No you didn't. I explained to you that, despite Hitler's nefarious intentions, his actions treated everyone who wasn't of a "superior race" as subhuman, i.e. no individuality, and guaranteed perpetual warfare to the "superior race", and warfare is not an individualized activity. On the other hand Stalin's actions allowed individual activities, (those needed to reproduce,) in spite of his rhetoric.

I think you should calm down a bit, and reread my first post. Then think on it.

If Hitler believed that individuality was best identified with and personified by the State and yet insisted that ubermensch existed, then that must mean the State didn't recognize them. I'm not disagreeing with you that certain classes and races were dehumanized and lost their individuality. However, that same supremacist perspective that you decry is what also made Hitler's regime marginally more individualized than that of Stalins. Why? Because under Stalin all were equally dehumanized and robbed of their individuality. Whatever individuality you point out favoring Stalinist Russia is, in reality, a mark against it. Those athletes and scientists and so forth were only recognized in relation to their subservience to the State. It was the Soviet State that made them who they were. Whereas in Nazi Germany, the Fatherland was made into what it was by the individuals comprising it (the persecuted minorities not counting as individuals).

I'm not disagreeing that politicians should be judged according to their actions.

I'm merely elaborating on why I think Stalin was worse, and how I arrived at that conclusion. It was their ideological differences - not the differences in their propensity for mass murder - that sways me.

But what you're neglecting is that Stalin allowed other countries, i.e. the majority of the World, to be individualistic. Hitler would not have allowed most of the people in the World to have those luxuries. Stalin would have. You're also neglecting the fact that certain individualized activities, such as dancing, singing, sparring, kissing, camping, etc, were encouraged in the USSR, amongst all races.

[Lord Tothe]

Stalin. Longer rule, higher body count, more ruthless.

[Shofercia]

In Nazi Germany, a vast majority of the people were free to choose their jobs, choose whether or not to smoke or drink, choose to open a business, discuss other ideological ideas (without explicit support). Contemporary sources confirm Kershaw (a historian with extensive works on Hitler) when he says that "...most people worked hardly, slept soundly, and had happy memories under peacetime National Socialist rule". Statistics will also show that in these earlier years, the terror state system was used primarily against criminals and others that the German people felt threatened by. Furthermore Hitler as an individual took a lax attitude to government, and many prominent policies in Nazi Germany, like their economic policy, was theorized and managed by individuals other than Hitler.

This is the Nazi regime; a dictator who did not dictate, over a public the majority of whom was not oppressed or persecuted. My sympathies lie with the victims of the holocaust, but that too was a product of collective decision, and the blame cannot be solely placed on Hitler; it is unthinkable to say one man can shape the world in such a way.

You do realize that due to Hitler's Lebensraum policy, there weren't going to be too many peaceful days for Nazi Germany?

[Yorkopolis]

In Nazi Germany, a vast majority of the people were free to choose their jobs, choose whether or not to smoke or drink, choose to open a business, discuss other ideological ideas (without explicit support). Contemporary sources confirm Kershaw (a historian with extensive works on Hitler) when he says that "...most people worked hardly, slept soundly, and had happy memories under peacetime National Socialist rule". Statistics will also show that in these earlier years, the terror state system was used primarily against criminals and others that the German people felt threatened by. Furthermore Hitler as an individual took a lax attitude to government, and many prominent policies in Nazi Germany, like their economic policy, was theorized and managed by individuals other than Hitler.

This is the Nazi regime; a dictator who did not dictate, over a public the majority of whom was not oppressed or persecuted. My sympathies lie with the victims of the holocaust, but that too was a product of collective decision, and the blame cannot be solely placed on Hitler; it is unthinkable to say one man can shape the world in such a way.

Strangely, many people in the former Soviet Union still revere Stalin, and I doubt that this number of people was any smaller at the time of Stalin's rule. It should however be noted that in contrast to Hitler, Stalin's obsession with the workings of various committees in his government, and his successful placement of his supporters in key positions, gave him a great deal of unspoken legal power. From this position, one would have to be blind not to see that Stalin played a key role in the abuses that went on in the Soviet Union, including among other things, forced collectivization, the confiscation of personal and private property, the imprisonment of artists, writers, soldiers and so on, not through objective racial factors, as in Hitler's Germany, but on the broad theoretical class enemies, imagined by Marx, and persecuted by Stalin, with no real consideration for the actual complicity of Soviet people in their political persuasions.

Since I admire the wider freedom of thought in Nazi Germany, I am inclined to say that Stalin was worse, and will be voting to that effect. But neither men, nor their systems, were representative of any kind of democracy or freedom.

Interesting point to note, Hitler believed that authority had to be based on popularity. For me this is the defining justification for democracy. Why he was suspicious of democracy I will never know.

There was no freedom of thought in Nazi Germany, and thus saying such is bullshit. The Nazi regime tried to control every single man and woman and child into becoming a racially pure, ideal Aryan New Man who would lead the Reich to a Greater Germanic Empire. As Hitler stated in Mein Kampf, "I will completely annihilate and destroy all who oppose me" (or something along the lines of this), Hitler did not tolerate any opposition to his plans. Even large parts of the Wehrmacht were purged because of opposition to Hitler. Even Himmler and Göring, Hitler's most devoted men, were imprisoned and purged for treason against Hitler. In general, in Stalin's USSR you were safer if you had a position in the party than in Hitler's Germany, because even criticizing the most tiny point of Hitler's policy could get you fucked.

[The Archregimancy]

Everyone,

I apologise that it took us three and a half pages of renewed debate to notice that this was a gravedig of an eight month old thread.

I considered letting it go on the basis that the gravedig had led to a detailed and vigorous discussion of a topic that clearly interests a lot of people, but in the end decided that this could potentially encourage people to gravedig threads more often in the hope that a "detailed and vigorous discussion" could get underway before the mods noticed.

So, with some regret - especially since it's a topic I'm interested in (I think this is the first time I've ever seen anyone cite Kershaw in defence of Nazism) - I'm locking the thread.