Who was worse,Hitler or Stalin?

[Person012345]

Before
(Image)

After he fell from favor
(Image)

That's a pretty good shoop for 1940. Water-paint for the water, and crayon for the gunwale I'm thinking.

tbh the before looks more shooped than the after. <.<

[Southland]

It's a tie. They both fail as human beings.

This.

[Bambi Praxis]

Hitler was worse, but I hate stalin more.

Maintain the rage! Spell the bastard's name without a capital letter, that will settle the score!

[Bambi Praxis]

That's a pretty good shoop for 1940. Water-paint for the water, and crayon for the gunwale I'm thinking.

tbh the before looks more shooped than the after. <.<

Hmm. The expressions look somewhat different. Perhaps Nikolai Yezhov invented a time-machine? That would explain quite a few th

[Kazarogkai]

Hitler was worse, but I hate stalin more.

Maintain the rage! Spell the bastard's name without a capital letter, that will settle the score!

Hell yes!!!

[Kazarogkai]

tbh the before looks more shooped than the after. <.<

Hmm. The expressions look somewhat different. Perhaps Nikolai Yezhov invented a time-machine? That would explain quite a few th

THey are real pictures though, quite famous at that. stalin to make Yezhov an Un-Person after he fell from favor "Fixed" all pictures of him to not include him, destroyed his birth records, made sure his name would not be mentioned ever again, silenced any talk of him, and destroyed the body. Its as if he never existed.

Also that's not the point of the picture!, its to show that Stalin Wouldn't mind killing his right hand man no matter what if he felt like it.

[Ozerostan]

What kind of people should vote for Stalin?
Stalin never accept laws which degrade entire races and religious groups as underpeople, Hitler did. Stalin never tryed to exterminate people only because their race, sexual orientation or religious, Hitler did. Stalin is not responsible for most of people which died under his leadership, Hitler is. You know, when people die due to famine, it is not your fault, but when people died because they are mass executed it is organized.
Many of those who prefer Stalin told that under his cca 30 years long leadership died around 20 milion people due to his policies (and it is really speculative in great famine in late 20's or when it was). Hitler is dirrectly and indirectly responsible for death of 6 milion Jews, 2,8 milion Poles, 1 milion of Yugoslavs, 13,7 milion of Soviets civilians (including Jews, so some 10 milion), 3,5 milion of Soviets POWs, 0,5 milion Roma, 0,2 milion of dissabled... Without other victims from western Europe it is 24 milion in 6 years.
So statistically, Stalin is responsible for death of 0,6 milion people every year and Hitler for death of 4 milion people every year. You can see that body count is not good argument if you want to prefer Stalin against Hitler as the worst person.

[Kazarogkai]

What kind of people should vote for Stalin?
Stalin never accept laws which degrade entire races and religious groups as underpeople, Hitler did. Stalin never tryed to exterminate people only because their race, sexual orientation or religious, Hitler did. Stalin is not responsible for most of people which died under his leadership, Hitler is. You know, when people die due to famine, it is not your fault, but when people died because they are mass executed it is organized.
Many of those who prefer Stalin told that under his cca 30 years long leadership died around 20 milion people due to his policies (and it is really speculative in great famine in late 20's or when it was). Hitler is dirrectly and indirectly responsible for death of 6 milion Jews, 2,8 milion Poles, 1 milion of Yugoslavs, 13,7 milion of Soviets civilians (including Jews, so some 10 milion), 3,5 milion of Soviets POWs, 0,5 milion Roma, 0,2 milion of dissabled... Without other victims from western Europe it is 24 milion in 6 years.
So statistically, Stalin is responsible for death of 0,6 milion people every year and Hitler for death of 4 milion people every year. You can see that body count is not good argument if you want to prefer Stalin against Hitler as the worst person.

body count wasnt why i chose stalin though. i chose him because how bad it would be living under him in comparison to Hitler. They both were basically serial killers, they both operated a little differently, Hitler had a personal preference, stalin didn't he just killed anyone who got in his way or he perceived got in his way even some of his brilliant generals which indirectly lead to why the soviets performed so poorly in the beginning years of the invasion of russia, so that 13-14 million civilians and 3-4 million POW can be linked to him too in a way. also the usual estimate of the deaths stalin killed range from 23 million(what the russian government usually says) to around 60 Million.

The Holdemur can be partially racially motivated and can because of the ways he caused and responded be considered intentional. He is said to have caused the famine because of a sudden rise in Ukrainian Nationalism thus may fall under the legal definition of genocide

"On 7 August 1932 a law came into force that stipulated that all food was state property and that mere possession of food was evidence of a crime. Among the most enthusiastic enforcers of the law were urban members of youth organizations, educated under the Soviet system, who fanned out into the countryside in order to prevent the "theft" of state property. They constructed and staffed watchtowers (over 700 in the Odessa region alone) to ensure that no peasants took food home from the fields. The youth brigades lived off the land, eating what they confiscated from the peasants. They often humiliated the starving peasants by forcing them to box each other for sport, or forcing them to crawl and bark like dogs. Under the pretext of grain confiscation, the brigades routinely raped women living alone.[60]

Several thousand Ukrainian peasants managed to cross the river Dniester into Romania, and received asylum there. Many were killed during the crossing by Soviet border-guards. "

Foreign relief was blocked by the State, and refugees were not allowed to leave if they tried they would be killed.

"Although famine, caused by collectivization, raged in many parts of the Soviet Union in 1932, special and particularly lethal policies, described by Yale historian Timothy Snyder in his book Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin (2010), were adopted in and largely limited to Ukraine at the end of 1932 and 1933.[57] Snyder lists seven crucial policies that applied only, or mainly, to Soviet Ukraine. He states: "Each of them may seem like an anodyne administrative measure, and each of them was certainly presented as such at the time, and yet each had to kill":[57]

From 18 November 1932 peasants from Ukraine were required to return extra grain they had previously earned for meeting their targets. State police and party brigades were sent into these regions to root out any food they could find.

Two days later, a law was passed forcing peasants who could not meet their grain quotas to surrender any livestock they had.

Eight days later, collective farms that failed to meet their quotas were placed on "blacklists" in which they were forced to surrender 15 times their quota. These farms were picked apart for any possible food by party activists. Blacklisted communes had no right to trade or to receive deliveries of any kind, and became death zones.

On 5 December 1932, Stalin's security chief presented the justification for terrorizing Ukrainian party officials to collect the grain. It was considered treason if anyone refused to do their part in grain requisitions for the state.

In November 1932 Ukraine was required to provide 1/3 of the grain collection of the entire Soviet Union. As Lazar Kaganovich put it, the Soviet state would fight "ferociously" to fulfill the plan.

In January 1933 Ukraine's borders were sealed in order to prevent Ukrainian peasants from fleeing to other republics. By the end of February 1933 approximately 190,000 Ukrainian peasants had been caught trying to flee Ukraine and were forced to return to their villages to starve.

The collection of grain continued even after the annual requisition target for 1932 was met in late January 1933"

Death Toll
the holdemour is said to have killed between 2.4–7.5 million but some claims say as much as 4.5 million, 10 million


13 countries consider it to be genocide including
Canada
USA
Peru
Brazil
Ecuador
Columbia
Argentina
Chile
Australia
*a Couple others

[Ozerostan]

I don't know much about Holodomor, but some good debate about it is on first pages of this topic.
It's hard to say which regime was worse, but I will have more chances for good live under Stalin than under Hitler, because I am Slav and they were considered as underpeople by Germans. Under Stalin rule, I have to shut up about politics and I won't have much problems.

[Ulvena]

They're both a "9" on my 1-10 evil scale. Since I reserve my 10 rating for the guy who starts World War 3 or an equally devastating event. But I'd say Stalin is more evil. Just slightly. Firstly, Stalin killed more people. I believe the kill count for Stalin is at 20 million or so? While Hitler's kill count is at 6 or 7 million. What makes it worse is that a large portion of the people that Hitler killed were Jews (not what Hitler considered Germans) but Stalin, he murdered anyone who didn't conform. It wasn't just a respect issue, it was indiscriminate murder.

Oh, and this is a personal thing but Hitler wasn't a total Aryan master race type of person. If you read Mein Kampf, he talks more about a Pan-German Europe and he talks about how he respects Asian culture and how developed they are. Stalin? He seized farms that Asian refugees running from the Japanese developed. That would be fine except he didn't use it to feed his own people. In fact, the famine under Stalin killed ten million: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... fer=europe.

Alright, Stalin killed more people. What about his economic policies? Hitler was better at managing the economy. While the Jew money and businesses he seized helped, Hitler oversaw the creation of the Autobahn and the first few Volkswagen vehicles to name a few. Stalin? There was economic development but history tells what will happen. Russia just doesn't become the massive industrial superpower in the long run. Even if we consider the whole Star Wars fiasco by Reagan. You could blame that on communism or Stalin or whatever. It won't change that under Stalin, the average citizen suffered far more economically. Not counting the end of World War 2 of course in the case for Hitler.

Besides, Hitler wasn't a bad person from the beginning. He could've been a decent leader had he not gone off the deep end and exterminated the Jews and tried to conquer Europe. Stalin? Nobody's really a bad person from the beginning but I just don't find enough things to respect about him and just as much things to hate about him as Hitler.

So much wrong with that post. It just reminds me to avoid these types of debates.

The Soviet Union was heavily industrialized as a result of Stalin's Five Year Plans. The USSR outdid every other nation in tank production, and ya kind of need industry to build tanks. The USSR was a massive industrial power in the long run. The reason that US did better, was that US was able to make the switch from military to civilian production better than the USSR.

Hitler didn't create the autobahn. That myth has been debunked here, numerous times. Also Stalin didn't kill more people. Hitler started WWII, thus he's responsible for all civilian deaths that happened in Europe as a result of WWII. There's zilch actual evidence that Stalin's numbers even approach those margins.

Industrialization does not equal prosperity for the civilians. Famine still plagued the Soviet people. And even if Hitler started World War 2, the body count is not on his hands because it's war. It's not systematic murder. If we're speaking of body count in wars, the United States has quite a bit of blood on their hands. So do the Soviets as well when under Stalin, they counter attacked the Germans in the Eastern front of the German theater.

Hitler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn#History

"Just days after the 1933 Nazi takeover, Adolf Hitler enthusiastically embraced an ambitious autobahn construction project and appointed Fritz Todt the Inspector General of German Road Construction. By 1936, 130,000 workers were directly employed in construction, as well as an additional 270,000 in the supply chain for construction equipment, steel, concrete, signage, maintenance equipment, etc. In rural areas new camps to house the workers were built near construction sites"

Click the reference for the source.

The Five Year Plan worked as to modernize Soviet industry under Stalin for the State. Not the people. Another problem was the state sponsored science departments. While they did, yes, bring up Sputnik and Soyuz 1, there were incidents where scientists that had the State's backing did incredibly stupid things like reject Mendellian genetics.

[Lietvos]

No vote. The use of the word 'worse' is ridiculous and undefined.

As far as I'm concerned they were both very competent leaders. It's hard to say which one was 'worse' than the other as their nations faced such different issues.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Also personally i would rather live under Hitler than Stalin reason? Stalin killed anyone didn't matter who you were as long as he felt like it you would die, Hitler was more specific he targeted a certain group of people so if you weren't one of them you would relatively be "OK".

Hitler could be pretty arbitrary too, having people sent to concentration camps because he suspected them of opposing him, even if the evidence was flimsy.

[The Nuclear Fist]

Hitler could be pretty arbitrary too, having people sent to concentration camps because he suspected them of opposing him, even if the evidence was flimsy.

Also, that one night what with the long knives and whatnot.

[Nazi Flower Power]

As far as I'm concerned they were both very competent leaders.

In that case, you are woefully uninformed regarding Nazi bureaucracy.

[CTALNH]

I like so much when every body decides on who is worse because of their body count...
Us comrade Stalin said:
"One death is a tragedy,A million more and it is a statistic!"

[Vecherd]

They are both awful, awful people and warmongering arseholes. However I am almost inclined to say Stalin as from the posts I have read no one is defending Hitler.

[Ryanisking]

stalin was unchecked and unstopped from his acts he killed way more people and put his own people into poverty in opressed state at least hitler allowed the german race to succede

[Gokturkistan]

I like so much when every body decides on who is worse because of their body count...
Us comrade Stalin said:
"One death is a tragedy,A million more and it is a statistic!"

Which Stalin never actually said, incidentally.

[Gokturkistan]

stalin was unchecked and unstopped from his acts he killed way more people and put his own people into poverty in opressed state

By improving the economy, making the Soviet Union a super-power, eliminating unemployment, leading the war against the Nazi invaders, increasing the lifespan of Soviet citizens, improving education etc. A bad argument as the Soviet Union was vastly improved from before Stalin came to be the leader. You can argue that the cost was too great if you like but to argue that he lead the USSR into ruin is ridiculous.

at least hitler allowed the german race to succede

Unless they happened to be Jews, Communists, Homosexuals, the Physically Disabled, rhe Mentally Disabled, Anti-Nazis, people of some (allegedly)"inferior" ancestry and any one else that were deemed "undermen" by the Nazi "elites".

Stalin lead the Soviet Union into being a global power and mostly eradicated poverty and unemployment whereas Hitler lead Germany into a defeat, poverty and the partition of his "German Reich"! Great leader there.

IOh and there is no such thing as a "German Race". Try harder next time my Nazi apologist friend.

[Kazarogkai]

Also personally i would rather live under Hitler than Stalin reason? Stalin killed anyone didn't matter who you were as long as he felt like it you would die, Hitler was more specific he targeted a certain group of people so if you weren't one of them you would relatively be "OK".

Hitler could be pretty arbitrary too, having people sent to concentration camps because he suspected them of opposing him, even if the evidence was flimsy.

Stalin did that also, all the time. Remember Nikolai Yezhov, he was the right hand man and head of stalins secret police during the great purges, he eventually fell out of favor and was eliminated and all traces of him were destroyed as if he never existed. also stalin severely purged his own military killing many brilliant competent officers and practically destroying the soviet war machine which is a strong reason the soviets performed so poorly in the beginning of the war. also hitler was eventually overthrown and germany was made "Free", stallin never toppled he was able to maintain the nightmare of his regime for 30 years non stop till he died, Hitler lasted 12.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Hitler could be pretty arbitrary too, having people sent to concentration camps because he suspected them of opposing him, even if the evidence was flimsy.

Stalin did that also, all the time. Remember Nikolai Yezhov, he was the right hand man and head of stalins secret police during the great purges, he eventually fell out of favor and was eliminated and all traces of him were destroyed as if he never existed. also stalin severely purged his own military killing many brilliant competent officers and practically destroying the soviet war machine which is a strong reason the soviets performed so poorly in the beginning of the war. also hitler was eventually overthrown and germany was made "Free", stallin never toppled he was able to maintain the nightmare of his regime for 30 years non stop till he died, Hitler lasted 12.

Yeah, but you were posting about it like it was just Stalin who did that kind of stuff, killing people who had been his allies. I'm saying Hitler pulled the same shit.

[Shofercia]

Hitler could be pretty arbitrary too, having people sent to concentration camps because he suspected them of opposing him, even if the evidence was flimsy.

Stalin did that also, all the time. Remember Nikolai Yezhov, he was the right hand man and head of stalins secret police during the great purges, he eventually fell out of favor and was eliminated and all traces of him were destroyed as if he never existed.

So, just to get this straight: I'm supposed to remember a guy who was eliminated, and all traces of him were destroyed? Well, if all traces of him were destroyed, how am I supposed to remember him?

[The United Soviet Socialist Republic]

Stalin. He forcibly starved 7 million Ukrainians to death, brutally killed German prisoners, and his "Not one step back" policy led to the deaths of millions of Soviet soldiers.

[Shofercia]

Stalin. He forcibly starved 7 million Ukrainians to death, brutally killed German prisoners, and his "Not one step back" policy led to the deaths of millions of Soviet soldiers.

Hitler's invasion killed over 14 million Civilians in USSR alone, Hitler's death camps killed over 3 million Soviet POWs, and do you really want to go into Hitler's military gaffes? How about this one: invading the USSR. Or maybe this one: declaring War on the US, after invading the USSR.

[Shofercia]

What kind of people should vote for Stalin?
Stalin never accept laws which degrade entire races and religious groups as underpeople, Hitler did. Stalin never tryed to exterminate people only because their race, sexual orientation or religious, Hitler did. Stalin is not responsible for most of people which died under his leadership, Hitler is. You know, when people die due to famine, it is not your fault, but when people died because they are mass executed it is organized.
Many of those who prefer Stalin told that under his cca 30 years long leadership died around 20 milion people due to his policies (and it is really speculative in great famine in late 20's or when it was). Hitler is dirrectly and indirectly responsible for death of 6 milion Jews, 2,8 milion Poles, 1 milion of Yugoslavs, 13,7 milion of Soviets civilians (including Jews, so some 10 milion), 3,5 milion of Soviets POWs, 0,5 milion Roma, 0,2 milion of dissabled... Without other victims from western Europe it is 24 milion in 6 years.
So statistically, Stalin is responsible for death of 0,6 milion people every year and Hitler for death of 4 milion people every year. You can see that body count is not good argument if you want to prefer Stalin against Hitler as the worst person.

body count wasnt why i chose stalin though. i chose him because how bad it would be living under him in comparison to Hitler. They both were basically serial killers, they both operated a little differently, Hitler had a personal preference, stalin didn't he just killed anyone who got in his way or he perceived got in his way even some of his brilliant generals which indirectly lead to why the soviets performed so poorly in the beginning years of the invasion of russia, so that 13-14 million civilians and 3-4 million POW can be linked to him too in a way. also the usual estimate of the deaths stalin killed range from 23 million(what the russian government usually says) to around 60 Million.

Do you actually have a source for Stalin killing 60 million? And no, civilian deaths in WWII cannot be linked back to Stalin, since Staling didn't ask Hitler to invade the USSR. Claiming that WWII civilian deaths can be linked to Stalin is... words fail to describe the stupidity of said claim.