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Good Proof of Christianity - The Resurrection = Proven

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LogiChristianity
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Good Proof of Christianity - The Resurrection = Proven

Postby LogiChristianity » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:20 pm

Okay, so I understand that it will take awhile for some of you to come around, but I know I'm making a good case, and it is hard to deny something as clearly truth as Christianity. That said, I understand there is another side to this, which is why I'm prepared to debate this on NationStates General.

So, Noah's Ark might have been a lot to swallow, but now we have something more irrefutable... the resurrection of Jesus Christ!

All information from the unbiased about.com, at: http://christianity.about.com/od/easter ... ection.htm

I will be defending the seven proofs of the resurrection as presented by the website above.

First, the empty tomb of Jesus Christ.
The empty tomb may be the strongest proof Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Two major theories have been advanced by unbelievers: someone stole Jesus' body or the women and disciples went to the wrong tomb. The Jews and Romans had no motive to steal the body. Christ's apostles were too cowardly and would have had to overcome the Roman guards. The women who found the tomb empty had earlier watched Jesus being laid away; they knew where the correct tomb was. Even if they had gone to the wrong tomb, the Sanhedrin could have produced the body from the right tomb to stop the resurrection stories. Jesus' burial cloths were left neatly folded inside, hardly the act of hurrying grave robbers. Angels said Jesus had risen from the dead.


Second, the honest eyewitnesses.
The holy women eyewitnesses are further proof that the Gospels are accurate historical records. If the accounts had been made up, no ancient author would have used women for witnesses to Christ's resurrection. Women were second class citizens in Bible times; their testimony was not even allowed in court. Yet the Bible says the risen Christ first appeared to Mary Magdalene and other holy women. Even the apostles did not believe Mary when she told them the tomb was empty. Jesus, who always had special respect for these women, honored them as the first eyewitnesses to his resurrection. The male Gospel writers had no choice but to report this embarrassing act of God's favor, because that was how it happened.


Third, the newly found courage of Jesus' followers.
After the crucifixion, Jesus' apostles hid behind locked doors, terrified they would be executed next. But something changed them from cowards to bold preachers. Anyone who understands human character knows people do not change that much without some major influence. That influence was seeing their Master, bodily risen from the dead. Christ appeared to them in the locked room, on the shore of the Sea of Galilee, and on the Mount of Olives. After seeing Jesus alive, Peter and the others left the locked room and preached the risen Christ, unafraid of what would happen to them. They quit hiding because they knew the truth. They finally understood that Jesus is God incarnate, who saves people from sin.


Fourth, lives were changed! (and yours can be too)
Changed lives are yet another proof of the resurrection. James, the brother of Jesus, was openly skeptical that Jesus was the Messiah. Later James became a courageous leader of the Jerusalem church, even being stoned to death for his faith. Why? The Bible says the risen Christ appeared to him. What a shock to see your own brother, alive again, after you knew he was dead. James and the apostles were effective missionaries because people could tell these men had touched and seen the risen Christ. With such zealous eyewitnesses, the early church exploded in growth, spreading west from Jerusalem to Rome and beyond. For 2,000 years, encounters with the resurrected Jesus have changed lives.


Fifth, MORE eyewitnesses. (this one is particularly convincing)
A large crowd of more than 500 eyewitnesses saw the risen Jesus Christ at the same time. The Apostle Paul records this event in 1 Corinthians 15:6. He states that most of these men and women were still alive when he wrote this letter, about 55 A.D. Undoubtedly they told others about this miracle. Today, psychologists say it would be impossible for a large crowd of people to have had the same hallucination at once. Smaller groups also saw the risen Christ, such as the apostles, and Cleopas and his companion. They all saw the same thing, and in the case of the apostles, they touched Jesus and watched him eat food. The hallucination theory is further debunked because after the ascension of Jesus into heaven, sightings of him stopped.


Sixth, the conversion of Paul (and please have a better argument than "he's a crazy wacko liar)
The conversion of Paul records the most drastically changed life in the Bible. As Saul of Tarsus, he was an aggressive persecutor of the early church. When the risen Christ appeared to Paul on the Damascus Road, Paul became Christianity's most determined missionary. He endured five floggings, three beatings, three shipwrecks, a stoning, poverty, and years of ridicule. Finally the Roman emperor Nero had Paul beheaded because the apostle refused to deny his faith in Jesus. What could make a person willingly accept—even welcome—such hardships? Christians believe the conversion of Paul came about because he encountered Jesus Christ who had risen from the dead.


Seventh, people died for Jesus.
Countless people have died for Jesus, absolutely certain that the resurrection of Christ is an historical fact. Tradition says ten of the original apostles died as martyrs for Christ, as did the Apostle Paul. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of early Christians died in the Roman arena and in prisons for their faith. Down through the centuries, thousands more have died for Jesus because they believed the resurrection is true. Even today, people suffer persecution because they have faith that Christ rose from the dead. An isolated group may give up their lives for a cult leader, but Christian martyrs have died in many lands, for nearly 2,000 years, believing Jesus conquered death to give them eternal life.


So, I am ready to hear your arguments. I'm normally one against an army on these arguments, which means that I'll probably be a bit behind in responding to arguments, but I'll try my best.
Get it? Logic + Christianity = Logichristianity = Jesus = Salvation = Heaven = God = Oneness.

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Tratvia
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All right. For the sake of argument:

Postby Tratvia » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:27 pm

Say (a) Jesus existed (I wouldn't argue with that: Roman records confirm it) and (b) he rose from the dead (and not as a zombie). Explain to me why Jesus, and God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are so insecure, domineering, and controlling, as to create human beings with free will, and then condemn the vast majority of them (those who don't believe in the right version of the invisible-friend-in-the-sky) to everlasting torture?

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Samuraikoku
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Postby Samuraikoku » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:27 pm

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

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Tlaceceyaya
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Postby Tlaceceyaya » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:28 pm

1: Or he was never buried there.

2: It makes for a better story if you add something unexpected.

3: Radical islamic suicide bombers are courageous.

4: Your life can be changed by worshipping Quetzalcoatl, Thor, Ra or any other deity as well. It can even be changed by worshipping me. Yeah, it changes in a great way, more than any other method, by worshipping me. (Edit: What happens to people who don't worship me? TORTURE FOREVER!)

5: Actually, psychologists don't say that. Mass Hysteria clicky.

6: He hallucinated, or it was made up.

7: Suicide bombers die for Allah.
Last edited by Tlaceceyaya on Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Individualist Constructivism
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Postby Individualist Constructivism » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:28 pm

LogiChristianity wrote:Okay, so I understand that it will take awhile for some of you to come around, but I know I'm making a good case, and it is hard to deny something as clearly truth as Christianity. That said, I understand there is another side to this, which is why I'm prepared to debate this on NationStates General.

So, Noah's Ark might have been a lot to swallow, but now we have something more irrefutable... the resurrection of Jesus Christ!

All information from the unbiased about.com, at: http://christianity.about.com/od/easter ... ection.htm

I will be defending the seven proofs of the resurrection as presented by the website above.

First, the empty tomb of Jesus Christ.
The empty tomb may be the strongest proof Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Two major theories have been advanced by unbelievers: someone stole Jesus' body or the women and disciples went to the wrong tomb. The Jews and Romans had no motive to steal the body. Christ's apostles were too cowardly and would have had to overcome the Roman guards. The women who found the tomb empty had earlier watched Jesus being laid away; they knew where the correct tomb was. Even if they had gone to the wrong tomb, the Sanhedrin could have produced the body from the right tomb to stop the resurrection stories. Jesus' burial cloths were left neatly folded inside, hardly the act of hurrying grave robbers. Angels said Jesus had risen from the dead.

First and foremost, do you have any solid proof that these accounts are even accurate? 'His tomb was empty, said whom'?

Moving on to logic where knowledge of the event may never be known, even if you have eliminated other stories, you have not validated your own.

Second, the honest eyewitnesses.
The holy women eyewitnesses are further proof that the Gospels are accurate historical records. If the accounts had been made up, no ancient author would have used women for witnesses to Christ's resurrection. Women were second class citizens in Bible times; their testimony was not even allowed in court. Yet the Bible says the risen Christ first appeared to Mary Magdalene and other holy women. Even the apostles did not believe Mary when she told them the tomb was empty. Jesus, who always had special respect for these women, honored them as the first eyewitnesses to his resurrection. The male Gospel writers had no choice but to report this embarrassing act of God's favor, because that was how it happened.

You are assuming women did not have accounts, which is false. Is it not inversely possible they were included because they legimitized the other claims?

In this way, you have still proven nothing about the truthfulness and validity of these reports.

Third, the newly found courage of Jesus' followers.
After the crucifixion, Jesus' apostles hid behind locked doors, terrified they would be executed next. But something changed them from cowards to bold preachers. Anyone who understands human character knows people do not change that much without some major influence. That influence was seeing their Master, bodily risen from the dead. Christ appeared to them in the locked room, on the shore of the Sea of Galilee, and on the Mount of Olives. After seeing Jesus alive, Peter and the others left the locked room and preached the risen Christ, unafraid of what would happen to them. They quit hiding because they knew the truth. They finally understood that Jesus is God incarnate, who saves people from sin.

I agree that believing something is true gives one courage, but it still says nothing about whether it is true or not.

Fourth, lives were changed! (and yours can be too)
Changed lives are yet another proof of the resurrection. James, the brother of Jesus, was openly skeptical that Jesus was the Messiah. Later James became a courageous leader of the Jerusalem church, even being stoned to death for his faith. Why? The Bible says the risen Christ appeared to him. What a shock to see your own brother, alive again, after you knew he was dead. James and the apostles were effective missionaries because people could tell these men had touched and seen the risen Christ. With such zealous eyewitnesses, the early church exploded in growth, spreading west from Jerusalem to Rome and beyond. For 2,000 years, encounters with the resurrected Jesus have changed lives.

Thanks for the offer, but no thank you. Lives can be changed in other ways, and the fact it was replicated in one instance does not give any more elevation to that instance than any others.

Fifth, MORE eyewitnesses. (this one is particularly convincing)
A large crowd of more than 500 eyewitnesses saw the risen Jesus Christ at the same time. The Apostle Paul records this event in 1 Corinthians 15:6. He states that most of these men and women were still alive when he wrote this letter, about 55 A.D. Undoubtedly they told others about this miracle. Today, psychologists say it would be impossible for a large crowd of people to have had the same hallucination at once. Smaller groups also saw the risen Christ, such as the apostles, and Cleopas and his companion. They all saw the same thing, and in the case of the apostles, they touched Jesus and watched him eat food. The hallucination theory is further debunked because after the ascension of Jesus into heaven, sightings of him stopped.

Today, psychologists say it would be impossible for a large crowd of people to have had the same hallucination at once

It is possible for them to believe the same thing at once, obviously. Otherwise religion doesn't exist.

Inversely, should the gospels not have written doen and remembered the same texts? Indeed, they did not. They had different experiences of the same thing they saw and believed occurred. Different beliefs of the same thing, and different impressions of the same belief are what occur here.

Sixth, the conversion of Paul (and please have a better argument than "he's a crazy wacko liar)
The conversion of Paul records the most drastically changed life in the Bible. As Saul of Tarsus, he was an aggressive persecutor of the early church. When the risen Christ appeared to Paul on the Damascus Road, Paul became Christianity's most determined missionary. He endured five floggings, three beatings, three shipwrecks, a stoning, poverty, and years of ridicule. Finally the Roman emperor Nero had Paul beheaded because the apostle refused to deny his faith in Jesus. What could make a person willingly accept—even welcome—such hardships? Christians believe the conversion of Paul came about because he encountered Jesus Christ who had risen from the dead.


Seventh, people died for Jesus.
Countless people have died for Jesus, absolutely certain that the resurrection of Christ is an historical fact. Tradition says ten of the original apostles died as martyrs for Christ, as did the Apostle Paul. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of early Christians died in the Roman arena and in prisons for their faith. Down through the centuries, thousands more have died for Jesus because they believed the resurrection is true. Even today, people suffer persecution because they have faith that Christ rose from the dead. An isolated group may give up their lives for a cult leader, but Christian martyrs have died in many lands, for nearly 2,000 years, believing Jesus conquered death to give them eternal life.


So, I am ready to hear your arguments. I'm normally one against an army on these arguments, which means that I'll probably be a bit behind in responding to arguments, but I'll try my best.[/quote]
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:28 pm

Oh this is just adorable. :lol:
The empty tomb may be the strongest proof Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Two major theories have been advanced by unbelievers: someone stole Jesus' body or the women and disciples went to the wrong tomb. The Jews and Romans had no motive to steal the body. Christ's apostles were too cowardly and would have had to overcome the Roman guards. The women who found the tomb empty had earlier watched Jesus being laid away; they knew where the correct tomb was. Even if they had gone to the wrong tomb, the Sanhedrin could have produced the body from the right tomb to stop the resurrection stories. Jesus' burial cloths were left neatly folded inside, hardly the act of hurrying grave robbers. Angels said Jesus had risen from the dead.

Do you have physical evidence for any of this?

The holy women eyewitnesses are further proof that the Gospels are accurate historical records. If the accounts had been made up, no ancient author would have used women for witnesses to Christ's resurrection. Women were second class citizens in Bible times; their testimony was not even allowed in court. Yet the Bible says the risen Christ first appeared to Mary Magdalene and other holy women. Even the apostles did not believe Mary when she told them the tomb was empty. Jesus, who always had special respect for these women, honored them as the first eyewitnesses to his resurrection. The male Gospel writers had no choice but to report this embarrassing act of God's favor, because that was how it happened.

There is no testimony from eyewitnesses. The New Testament was written THIRTY YEARS after the events of it supposedly happened, the people who wrote the NT were not eyewitnesses.

After the crucifixion, Jesus' apostles hid behind locked doors, terrified they would be executed next. But something changed them from cowards to bold preachers. Anyone who understands human character knows people do not change that much without some major influence. That influence was seeing their Master, bodily risen from the dead. Christ appeared to them in the locked room, on the shore of the Sea of Galilee, and on the Mount of Olives. After seeing Jesus alive, Peter and the others left the locked room and preached the risen Christ, unafraid of what would happen to them. They quit hiding because they knew the truth. They finally understood that Jesus is God incarnate, who saves people from sin.

Using your own logic, Islam is true because of the fanaticism of its followers.
Changed lives are yet another proof of the resurrection. James, the brother of Jesus, was openly skeptical that Jesus was the Messiah. Later James became a courageous leader of the Jerusalem church, even being stoned to death for his faith. Why? The Bible says the risen Christ appeared to him. What a shock to see your own brother, alive again, after you knew he was dead. James and the apostles were effective missionaries because people could tell these men had touched and seen the risen Christ. With such zealous eyewitnesses, the early church exploded in growth, spreading west from Jerusalem to Rome and beyond. For 2,000 years, encounters with the resurrected Jesus have changed lives.

Again, physical evidence.
A large crowd of more than 500 eyewitnesses saw the risen Jesus Christ at the same time. The Apostle Paul records this event in 1 Corinthians 15:6. He states that most of these men and women were still alive when he wrote this letter, about 55 A.D. Undoubtedly they told others about this miracle. Today, psychologists say it would be impossible for a large crowd of people to have had the same hallucination at once. Smaller groups also saw the risen Christ, such as the apostles, and Cleopas and his companion. They all saw the same thing, and in the case of the apostles, they touched Jesus and watched him eat food. The hallucination theory is further debunked because after the ascension of Jesus into heaven, sightings of him stopped.

The Bible cannot be used as historical evidence. The bible is making the claim, it has no evidence.
The conversion of Paul records the most drastically changed life in the Bible. As Saul of Tarsus, he was an aggressive persecutor of the early church. When the risen Christ appeared to Paul on the Damascus Road, Paul became Christianity's most determined missionary. He endured five floggings, three beatings, three shipwrecks, a stoning, poverty, and years of ridicule. Finally the Roman emperor Nero had Paul beheaded because the apostle refused to deny his faith in Jesus. What could make a person willingly accept—even welcome—such hardships? Christians believe the conversion of Paul came about because he encountered Jesus Christ who had risen from the dead.

And we have only the word of Ancient Christians to go on?

Countless people have died for Jesus, absolutely certain that the resurrection of Christ is an historical fact. Tradition says ten of the original apostles died as martyrs for Christ, as did the Apostle Paul. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of early Christians died in the Roman arena and in prisons for their faith. Down through the centuries, thousands more have died for Jesus because they believed the resurrection is true. Even today, people suffer persecution because they have faith that Christ rose from the dead. An isolated group may give up their lives for a cult leader, but Christian martyrs have died in many lands, for nearly 2,000 years, believing Jesus conquered death to give them eternal life.

Countless people have died for many gods.
Wanna try again?
Last edited by Genivaria on Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:28 pm

all of those points are based on the assumption of the truth of what is written in the gospels.

i see no reason to grant that.
whatever

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Nordengrund
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Postby Nordengrund » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:30 pm

If someone asks you for proof that God is real, ask them for proof that God isn't real.
1 John 1:9

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Samuraikoku
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Postby Samuraikoku » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:31 pm

Nordengrund wrote:If someone asks you for proof that God is real, ask them for proof that God isn't real.


Russell's Teapot defeats that argument.

The Emperor protects.
Last edited by Samuraikoku on Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Bombadil » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:32 pm

Ashmoria wrote:all of those points are based on the assumption of the truth of what is written in the gospels.

i see no reason to grant that.


Proof that Harry Potter was resurrected...
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

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Tlaceceyaya
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Postby Tlaceceyaya » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:32 pm

Nordengrund wrote:If someone asks you for proof that God is real, ask them for proof that God isn't real.

If someone asks you for proof that the walrus beneath Titan is real, ask them for proof that the walrus beneath Titan isn't real.
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Republic of Omar
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Postby Republic of Omar » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:32 pm

Logi can you stop please? You really to a crappy job of spelling out Christian faith and doctrine and to be honest, you make all of us look retarded.
Last edited by Republic of Omar on Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Antigorite
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not all

Postby Antigorite » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:33 pm

atheists claim that the resurrection of christ is just a myth :lol2:

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Franklin Delano Bluth
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Postby Franklin Delano Bluth » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:33 pm

A literal resurrection of Jesus is not a Christian belief.
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Nordengrund
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Postby Nordengrund » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:34 pm

Franklin Delano Bluth wrote:A literal resurrection of Jesus is not a Christian belief.


Why not?
1 John 1:9

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Ruridova
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Postby Ruridova » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:34 pm

You again?

How many times must we ask you to please stop trying to convert us?
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Tratvia
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Postby Tratvia » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:34 pm

Remember: King Kong died for your sins.

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Postby Tim-Opolis » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:34 pm

The argument is founded on the belief that the Bible is truth.

Thus the argument is invalid.
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Postby Bluvil » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:34 pm

Nordengrund wrote:If someone asks you for proof that God is real, ask them for proof that God isn't real.


If you're going to try to prove the existence of the Christian God, then you have to disprove the existence of all other Gods first.
Good luck with that, there's a long list.
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Nordengrund
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Postby Nordengrund » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:35 pm

Ruridova wrote:You again?

How many times must we ask you to please stop trying to convert us?


Who? Me or the OP?
1 John 1:9

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:35 pm

Republic of Omar wrote:Logy can you stop, you really to a crappy job of spelling out Christian faith and doctrine and to be honest, you make all of us look retarded.

There's a fair chance that's what he wants to do.
He/Him

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Samuraikoku
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Postby Samuraikoku » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:35 pm

Tratvia wrote:Remember: King Kong died for your sins.


As did Sanguinius and Qui-Gon Jinn.

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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:35 pm

Antigorite wrote:atheists claim that the resurrection of christ is just a myth :lol2:

Well seeing as how it has no evidence to support it, yes, yes we do.

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Tim-Opolis
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Postby Tim-Opolis » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:35 pm

Nordengrund wrote:
Ruridova wrote:You again?

How many times must we ask you to please stop trying to convert us?


Who? Me or the OP?


I believe the OP. I don't think it's his first time visiting NSG.
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Typhlochactas
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Postby Typhlochactas » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:35 pm

Countless people have died for Jesus, absolutely certain that the resurrection of Christ is an historical fact. Tradition says ten of the original apostles died as martyrs for Christ, as did the Apostle Paul. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of early Christians died in the Roman arena and in prisons for their faith. Down through the centuries, thousands more have died for Jesus because they believed the resurrection is true. Even today, people suffer persecution because they have faith that Christ rose from the dead. An isolated group may give up their lives for a cult leader, but Christian martyrs have died in many lands, for nearly 2,000 years, believing Jesus conquered death to give them eternal life.


Now, from a scholar:

But let’s go back a step. In fact we do not know that the earliest preachers of Christianity were martyred for their faith. The New Testament does not tell us for sure. Acts 12:2 doesn’t tell us whether James had the chance to recant before being axed, and John 21:18 is so vague that verse 19 has to tell the reader that v. 18 somehow refers to Peter’s death, perhaps a reinterpretation. Our earliest “information” comes from unreliable second- and third century documents, starting with the anonymous but so-called First Epistle of Clement, which says, vaguely, that Peter and Paul “witnessed” to their faith in Rome (apparently implying their martyrdom) because of “jealousy.” This in turn seems to be a reference to the Apocryphal Acts of Paul, Peter, Andrew and others, which have the apostles martyred at the instigation of jealous pagan husbands whose wives, having been converted to Christianity, would no longer sleep with them. These Acts abound in legends, such as Paul baptizing a talking lion. Tertullian (late second century) says the Apostle John survived being boiled in oil. Thus we have no real reason to believe the earliest preachers, whoever they may have been, were martyred for their faith.

In fact, it is an open question among New Testament scholars whether the earliest Christian preaching even involved any resurrection. The early Q Document, apparently used by both Matthew and Luke, seems to have had no mention of either the saving death or the resurrection of Jesus. Maybe the resurrection, as I think (see my book Deconstructing Jesus), was a subsequent embellishment of the Jesus story.

Finally, while we are usually safe in assuming that your average martyr, heroically giving his or her life for a cause, sincerely believes in that cause, we still have to ask whether sincerity is the same thing as being right. Plenty of people are sincerely mistaken. rly 2,000 years, believing Jesus conquered death to give them eternal life.
Last edited by Typhlochactas on Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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