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How to read the Bible: An Orthodox perspective

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Seperates
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Postby Seperates » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:02 pm

Tmutarakhan wrote:
Nordengrund wrote: How does a Christian live if they do not literally follow the Bible?

I don't know... how about you try loving God with all you have, and loving others as yourself? Somebody suggested that once, but... what did he know?

How does one "love" a malevolent, omnipresent, omnipotent being?
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:16 pm

Seperates wrote:
Tmutarakhan wrote:I don't know... how about you try loving God with all you have, and loving others as yourself? Somebody suggested that once, but... what did he know?

How does one "love" a malevolent, omnipresent, omnipotent being?

Like such: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be upon thy heart;
7 and thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thy hand, and they shall be for frontlets between thine eyes.
And thou shalt write them upon the door-posts of thy house, and upon thy gates.

Deuteronomy.
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Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Seperates
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Postby Seperates » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:32 pm

Menassa wrote:
Seperates wrote:How does one "love" a malevolent, omnipresent, omnipotent being?

Like such: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be upon thy heart;
7 and thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thy hand, and they shall be for frontlets between thine eyes.
And thou shalt write them upon the door-posts of thy house, and upon thy gates.

Deuteronomy.

So we are supposed to stroke the ego of an omnipotent being?
'
And also, it really doesn't explain how to "love" God. I mean, I don't love anybody that way, do you?
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:34 pm

Seperates wrote:
Menassa wrote:Like such: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be upon thy heart;
7 and thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thy hand, and they shall be for frontlets between thine eyes.
And thou shalt write them upon the door-posts of thy house, and upon thy gates.

Deuteronomy.

So we are supposed to stroke the ego of an omnipotent being?
'
And also, it really doesn't explain how to "love" God. I mean, I don't love anybody that way, do you?

I've never loved anybody ... ever

but god I assume wan'ts your raw love..... even though if he needed love he would be flawed....... Circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works.
-NS's one and only Tanna!
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
The NS Steam Thread
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Seperates
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Postby Seperates » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:54 pm

Menassa wrote:
Seperates wrote:So we are supposed to stroke the ego of an omnipotent being?
'
And also, it really doesn't explain how to "love" God. I mean, I don't love anybody that way, do you?

I've never loved anybody ... ever

but god I assume wan'ts your raw love..... even though if he needed love he would be flawed....... Circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works.

Circular reasoning is illogical. It doesn't work.

Why does God require to have his ego stroked?
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

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Not a pipe
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Postby Not a pipe » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:59 pm

Nordengrund wrote:What I mean is that as long as you accept Christ and live like a Christian, you are going to heaven.
I doubt it is that simple and I also don't care.

Enadail wrote:That shows you really didn't get my point, and I'd have to think willfully, as I'd like to think my statement was pretty clear.


So if I live my life "like a Christian" (which mind you, doesn't mean much, because while you can throw around 'No True Scotsman', there's plenty to show being Christian doesn't mean being good), but don't accept Christ, no matter how much good I do, you believe I am deserving of eternal punishment? That if I save an entire building of orphans from a bomb, give all my money to worthy charities, never lie, cheat, or steal, I deserve the same punishment as someone who thinks Jesus is the son of God but killed 3 people? You don't see how that's an insult at all? If not, there's not much more I can say.
I agree that being Christian doesn't necessarily mean being good (it only means being Christian); and if you save an entire building of orphans from a bomb, give all my money to worthy charities, never lie, cheat, or steal, then you are very good.

My belief is this: if there is a god and god is good and just, then god doesn't care if I believe or not and is more concerned with how I lead my life. If there is a god and god is not good and just, that god is not deserving of my praise, and I will lead a good life in spite of that god. If there is no god, I've lived a good life and there was no loss to it.
I agree. (Some may say that lead your life in good way is also a kind of indirect praise God (possibly even a better way); but you do not have to say that if you do not want to say that.)

If God exists and is more concerned with my belief that he put out a bunch of books that made no sense and contradicted each other then he is that I am a good person, why in the world would I want to praise him?
Exactly.....the Bible is consisting of collection of old documents. It may be called good to read, or whatever, but that is unimportant.

I hope you take anything I said to heart. I'll say again, a literal interpretation of the bible is impossible, and any biblical scholar can tell you that. Taking the bible literally is really only a good way to alienate non-believers and any rationally minded person.
I agree.

Menassa wrote:Circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works.
No. Circular reasoning works because circular reasoning doesn't work. Therefore it doesn't work at all anyways.
Last edited by Not a pipe on Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:09 pm

Seperates wrote:
Menassa wrote:I've never loved anybody ... ever

but god I assume wan'ts your raw love..... even though if he needed love he would be flawed....... Circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works.

Circular reasoning is illogical. It doesn't work.

Why does God require to have his ego stroked?

If he is flawless he doesn't that's what being flawless is.... you don't require anything.
-NS's one and only Tanna!
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
The NS Steam Thread
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Seperates
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Postby Seperates » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:12 pm

Menassa wrote:
Seperates wrote:Circular reasoning is illogical. It doesn't work.

Why does God require to have his ego stroked?

If he is flawless he doesn't that's what being flawless is.... you don't require anything.

Exactly. So why should I worship God? Why should I believe in God, if he doesn't make himself apparent?

And now ask these questions for yourself.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:14 pm

Seperates wrote:
Menassa wrote:If he is flawless he doesn't that's what being flawless is.... you don't require anything.

Exactly. So why should I worship God? Why should I believe in God, if he doesn't make himself apparent?

And now ask these questions for yourself.

Exactly.... why should you?

We're agreeing.
-NS's one and only Tanna!
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
The NS Steam Thread
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Seperates
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Postby Seperates » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:19 pm

Menassa wrote:
Seperates wrote:Exactly. So why should I worship God? Why should I believe in God, if he doesn't make himself apparent?

And now ask these questions for yourself.

Exactly.... why should you?

We're agreeing.

Then why do you worship God?
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:32 pm

Seperates wrote:
Menassa wrote:Exactly.... why should you?

We're agreeing.

Then why do you worship God?

Well that's a good question.... seeing how I don't worship god....
-NS's one and only Tanna!
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
The NS Steam Thread
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Seperates
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Postby Seperates » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:37 pm

Menassa wrote:
Seperates wrote:Then why do you worship God?

Well that's a good question.... seeing how I don't worship god....

Ah, I apologize then. Seeing as you called yourself a rabbi in your sig, and you did say that circular logic worked, made you difficult to identify as irreligious.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:39 pm

Seperates wrote:
Menassa wrote:Well that's a good question.... seeing how I don't worship god....

Ah, I apologize then. Seeing as you called yourself a rabbi in your sig, and you did say that circular logic worked, made you difficult to identify as irreligious.

I should change that to 'unofficial' or 'not ordained'

The circular logic thing was a joke.
-NS's one and only Tanna!
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
The NS Steam Thread
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Seperates
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Postby Seperates » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:42 pm

Menassa wrote:
Seperates wrote:Ah, I apologize then. Seeing as you called yourself a rabbi in your sig, and you did say that circular logic worked, made you difficult to identify as irreligious.

I should change that to 'unofficial' or 'not ordained'

The circular logic thing was a joke.

Sarcasm meter is obviously not working today.

Probably should change it... or leave it out... not sure really, because in context it makes sense now. :p
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:43 pm

Seperates wrote:
Menassa wrote:I should change that to 'unofficial' or 'not ordained'

The circular logic thing was a joke.

Sarcasm meter is obviously not working today.

Probably should change it... or leave it out... not sure really, because in context it makes sense now. :p

You see here's were I'm at an impasse...... I know as much as a rabbi (or I'd like to thinks so) which is why I'm irreligious.
-NS's one and only Tanna!
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
The NS Steam Thread
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Seperates
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Postby Seperates » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:46 pm

Menassa wrote:
Seperates wrote:Sarcasm meter is obviously not working today.

Probably should change it... or leave it out... not sure really, because in context it makes sense now. :p

You see here's were I'm at an impasse...... I know as much as a rabbi (or I'd like to thinks so) which is why I'm irreligious.

Pretty much the same with me and Catholicism.

I know more about it than most priests I've met, barring knowing verse and chapter numbers by heart... which is exactly why I'm irreligious.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:48 pm

Seperates wrote:
Menassa wrote:You see here's were I'm at an impasse...... I know as much as a rabbi (or I'd like to thinks so) which is why I'm irreligious.

Pretty much the same with me and Catholicism.

I know more about it than most priests I've met, barring knowing verse and chapter numbers by heart... which is exactly why I'm irreligious.

Mhm... so I can 'educate' people but I don't beleive it myself.
-NS's one and only Tanna!
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
The NS Steam Thread
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Janeron
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Postby Janeron » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:48 pm

Cetacea wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:Apparently the Orthodox perspective (at least according to Dis) is that lay people aren't smart enough to read the bible themselves...


yep thats pretty much it


That's actually pretty much the reason why the Reformation happened in the first place.

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Seperates
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Postby Seperates » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:51 pm

Menassa wrote:
Seperates wrote:Pretty much the same with me and Catholicism.

I know more about it than most priests I've met, barring knowing verse and chapter numbers by heart... which is exactly why I'm irreligious.

Mhm... so I can 'educate' people but I don't beleive it myself.

I educate to help people become irreligious. :p
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:53 pm

Seperates wrote:
Menassa wrote:Mhm... so I can 'educate' people but I don't beleive it myself.

I educate to help people become irreligious. :p

I don't care to go out of my why to try and 'un-convert' people but I happen to be an expert at 'counter Missionary tactics' :)
-NS's one and only Tanna!
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
The NS Steam Thread
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Seperates
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Founded: Sep 03, 2009
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Postby Seperates » Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:01 am

Menassa wrote:
Seperates wrote:I educate to help people become irreligious. :p

I don't care to go out of my why to try and 'un-convert' people but I happen to be an expert at 'counter Missionary tactics' :)

I mostly correct the different misunderstandings that Catholics seem to have about their religion... if they still choose to believe after that, well, they can be illogical if they want.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:03 am

Seperates wrote:
Menassa wrote:I don't care to go out of my why to try and 'un-convert' people but I happen to be an expert at 'counter Missionary tactics' :)

I mostly correct the different misunderstandings that Catholics seem to have about their religion... if they still choose to believe after that, well, they can be illogical if they want.

Same hee'yah.
-NS's one and only Tanna!
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
The NS Steam Thread
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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The Theban Legion
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Founded: May 01, 2010
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Postby The Theban Legion » Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:03 am

Janeron wrote:
Cetacea wrote:
yep thats pretty much it


That's actually pretty much the reason why the Reformation happened in the first place.


Lets keep it chained to the pulpit and if they think they're ready to read it by themselves... Well, they're heretics and we all know that heretics have to burn, at least where Catholics can get ahold of them. Not saying I believe any other church to be better or freer of sin or inaccuracy in interpreting the verse. But seriously the Catholic Church does have one problem that no other churches do. They attempted to wipe out almost every other Christian denomination in existence. It possibly made at least one attempt on every single other denomination out there and more than half of those denominations did nothing and had plans to do nothing except flee as a response to such brutal and un-Christian violence. That's why the Catholic Church has lost all credibility, because of its silly acts of violence. That's why any over centralized system is eventually shunned and toppled to an extent. It begins to gobble people up and and literally kill them in large numbers if they slip up.

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Seperates
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Postby Seperates » Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:04 am

Menassa wrote:
Seperates wrote:I mostly correct the different misunderstandings that Catholics seem to have about their religion... if they still choose to believe after that, well, they can be illogical if they want.

Same hee'yah.

So I assume Judaism is fairly illogical as well?
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:05 am

Seperates wrote:
Menassa wrote:Same hee'yah.

So I assume Judaism is fairly illogical as well?

Super fairly illogical.... (most) all of the arguments against god work with Judaism.... and then there's the Talmud.... and the 'oral law'
-NS's one and only Tanna!
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
The NS Steam Thread
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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