Why "Planned Parenthood" is wrong.

[The Realm of God]

Ugh, I keep getting those two words mixed up. Which one means "capable of making moral decisions"? That's the one I meant.

Neither. Although despite this, bonobos are capable of making moral decisions. Rats, I'm not sure. So why give a fetus more rights than a bonobo?

And chimps can feel empathy. Which is why I sort of support the primate rights movement.

[Dyakovo]

Yes but an embryo when formed naturally in the womb has a near certainty of developing into a foetus and being born whereas a sperm cell only has the potential of developing into a child when it contacts an embryo and the genetic codes mix.

If by "near certainty" you mean about a 75% chance of.... then yes.

Possibly less, some estimates put the chances of miscarriage at 33%...

[Parchelon]

No i am trying to point out that there needs to be a balance between the mother and unborn child's rights.

And by removing the right from the mother to have an abortion, you're completely removing any rights of hers around the issue of choice, so that plainly isn't a balance.

Yes but abortion is not a balance either considering it is the killing of a human being because another human finds its existence inconvenient.

[Dyakovo]

Dafuq is the difference between a foetus and a fetus?

Which side of the pond you live on.

Edit: As in, British people usually write "foetus" and Americans are lazy so they miss a letter and put "fetus".

Not all of us yanks spell foetus incorrectly...

[Mavorpen]

And by removing the right from the mother to have an abortion, you're completely removing any rights of hers around the issue of choice, so that plainly isn't a balance.

Yes but abortion is not a balance either considering it is the killing of a human being because another human finds its existence inconvenient.

So fuck the balance argument and leave it to the mother. Problem solved.

[Parchelon]

regardless the point being in the eyes of the law you are either guilty or not.

Right, and the fetus is guilty.

you aren't listening to me, a foetus hasn't the capacity to be guilty!

[Mavorpen]

Right, and the fetus is guilty.

you aren't listening to me, a foetus hasn't the capacity to be guilty!

Yes, I'm not the one listening.

No I am simply saying that an unborn foetus is not a fully fledged moral agent and is unconscious regardless. It can no more choose to inhabit the womb than a rock can choose to fall. As to a foetus being as important as a rock that is just hogwash.

So, you're admitting that a fetus is no more sentient and important than a rock. But, I'm sick of you ignoring definitions. Let's look at some from the Oxford dictionary, shall we?

guilty Pronunciation: /ˈgɪlti/
Definition of guilty
adjective (guiltier, guiltiest)
culpable of or responsible for a specified wrongdoing:
he was found guilty of manslaughter
Williams pleaded guilty to three separate offences
justly chargeable with a particular fault or error:
she was guilty of a serious error of judgement
conscious of, affected by, or revealing a feeling of guilt:
he felt guilty about the way he had treated her
a guilty conscience
causing a feeling of guilt:
a guilty secret

responsible Pronunciation: /rɪˈspɒnsɪb(ə)l/
Definition of responsible
adjective
1 [predic.] having an obligation to do something, or having control over or care for someone, as part of one’s job or role:
the cabinet minister responsible for Education
(responsible to) having to report to (a superior) and be answerable to them for one’s actions:
the Prime Minister and cabinet are responsible to Parliament
2being the primary cause of something and so able to be blamed or credited for it:
Gooch was responsible for 198 of his side’s 542 runs
morally accountable for one’s behaviour:
the progressive emergence of the child as a responsible being
3(of a job or position) involving important duties, independent decision-making, or control over others:
she had risen rapidly to a high and responsible position in the civil service
capable of being trusted:
a responsible adult

Being guilty has little to do with choice. You're wrong, yet again. But I'm sure you'll ignore this and in 5 pages you'll say, "THE FETUS CAN'T CHOOSE!"

[The Little Harmonic Labyrinth]

No, it doesn't. It boils down to personhood and being a human being.

A human being means being sentiant. I think a foetus is self aware a few weeks before birth.

You're going to need a better reason for what you say than "I think". Source, please?

I'm pretty sure you won't find one, since it's not the case.

[Dyakovo]

Borderline flaming.

"Borderline"?

The poster had to this point a clean record, so while it is flaming it isn't actionable [/not a mod]

[Parchelon]

regardless the point being in the eyes of the law you are either guilty or not.

And not guilty doesn't mean innocent. It means there's no evidence to say they're guilty.

Exactly and if there is no evidence for their guilt and a heck of a lot of reason to believe that they can even form the mens rea then there cant be a conviction, no court in their right mind would convict someone with no evidence whatsoever of guilt and reasoning to the contrary.

[Natair]

Right, and the fetus is guilty.

you aren't listening to me, a foetus hasn't the capacity to be guilty!

Then they don't have the capacity to take priority over the would-be mother's wishes.

[Mavorpen]

you aren't listening to me, a foetus hasn't the capacity to be guilty!

Then they don't have the capacity to take priority over the would-be mother's wishes.

And thus they aren't more important than rocks or rats. So he's complaining over nothing. Unless he just has a weird fetish concerning fetuses.

[Alien Space Bats]

Can you find me the verse in the Bible where God says "Thou shalt not use contraception"?

"Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother."But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother.What he did was wicked in the lord's sight."

This is why I hate religious fundamentalism.

Context matters.

When Onan's brother Er died without giving Tamar a child, he left her without a future. First, if Tamar failed to produce a child, she would be sent back to her father's family rather than remain within Judah's, supported by Judah as the mother of one of his grandchildren. Second, the child Onan produced by Tamar would be entitled to inherit a share of Judah's property in Er's stead, whereas if there was no child, Onan would get it all. Finally, Tamar's son or daughter would be obligated to look after her when she grew old and weak; without such a child, Tamar would have no one to care for her.

Thus, by denying Tamar a child, Onan was greedily stealing his dead brother's rightful inheritance from him, as well as his sister-in-law's place in Judah's family and her sole means of support from her. It was this greedy act of self-aggrandizement that made Onan wicked - and that is why God slew him in revenge for his wickedness.

As for masturbation, I already said that you are the same sex as yourself. To achieve orgasm at your own hands shows at least some level of auto eroticism, which is homosexual.

Most heterosexual men think of a woman when they masturbate. I mean, how gay is that?!?

<winks>

[Samuraikoku]

Exactly and if there is no evidence for their guilt and a heck of a lot of reason to believe that they can even form the mens rea then there cant be a conviction, no court in their right mind would convict someone with no evidence whatsoever of guilt and reasoning to the contrary.

They're not people yet, so they don't fall under that scrutiny.

[Zottistan]

And not guilty doesn't mean innocent. It means there's no evidence to say they're guilty.

Exactly and if there is no evidence for their guilt and a heck of a lot of reason to believe that they can even form the mens rea then there cant be a conviction, no court in their right mind would convict someone with no evidence whatsoever of guilt and reasoning to the contrary.

What part of "not guilty doesn't mean innocent" didn't you understand?

[Dyakovo]

Contraceptives defy the will of God.¹ Abortion is murder.² Planned parenthood is fine, as long as you acheive it through abstinance and not the aformentioned blasphemies.

1: Prove your magic sky faerie exists and I might care what he has to say on the subject.
2: Been over this multiple times already.
Abortion is not murder, it fails to meet any of the necessary qualifications...
a) It is not illegal.
b) It lacks malice aforethought.
c) No person is killed.

[Dyakovo]

What if you wore a glove? Would that make you glovesexual?

That would be practicing safe sex. unless it is sparkly and white in and make hoot noises, in which case you're Jacksoning-off.

[Natair]

Then they don't have the capacity to take priority over the would-be mother's wishes.

And thus they aren't more important than rocks or rats. So he's complaining over nothing. Unless he just has a weird fetish concerning fetuses.

Great job, I didn't think of that one...

[Dyakovo]

So this debate boils down to one key philosophical question.

"What does it mean to be human?"

I don't consider myself qualified to answer this.

No, it doesn't. It boils down to personhood and being a human being.

Edit: Even then, it has no right to force the mother to house it.

Your edit added in the issue that is actually key to the discussion...
In the end it really doesn't matter whether the unborn are people or not as no living person has the right to use someone else's body against there will.

[The Little Harmonic Labyrinth]

As for masturbation, I already said that you are the same sex as yourself. To achieve orgasm at your own hands shows at least some level of auto eroticism, which is homosexual.

Someone's already said this, but I didn't see an answer from you. What about transgender people (who have not had SRS)? If they masturbate, they are touching genitals of a sex different to their own gender, so surely it can't be homosexual?

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

And by removing the right from the mother to have an abortion, you're completely removing any rights of hers around the issue of choice, so that plainly isn't a balance.

Yes but abortion is not a balance either considering it is the killing of a human being because another human finds its existence inconvenient.

You can't have a balanced solution, then, so grant the rights to the mother, given that she's an actual living human being and not just a potential human being.

[Natair]

Yes but abortion is not a balance either considering it is the killing of a human being because another human finds its existence inconvenient.

You can't have a balanced solution, then, so grant the rights to the mother, given that she's an actual living human being and not just a potential human being.

I second this decision, and unfortunately, it seems pro-life people are fighting a losing battle.

[Blakk Metal]

Why? One is committing a crime, one isn't. One is considered more sentient than a rat, one isn't. Why do you keep going around in circles ignoring everything we say?

I am not ignoring everything you say, but in order for there to be a crime you need an actus reus (guilty act) and a mens rea (guilty mind), the unborn foetus might very well be committing a guilty act, but certainly has no capacity to have the guilty mind. It is firstly it is unconsciousness and secondly is only just developing a mind with witch to make decisions. And unless you are found guilty in a court of law you are seen as innocent under the law. Considering that the unborn are legally hardly even regarded as persons under the current law it is impossible to say they are even so much as guilty of a crime. Even if they were persons however they still would not be able to form the mens rea to make the dwelling in the mother's womb without her consent a crime.

SELF-DEFENSE IS NOT JUSTICE

You seem to think that self-defense is justice. It ain't.

You seem to have fallen into a common trap: Believing that life itself is a right. It is not. That is an illusion and is merely a result of bodily possession.

SELF DEFENSE IS NOT JUSTICE. GET THAT ITG BULLSHIT OUT OF YOUR HEAD.

1. self defence is a right in certain circumstances.

And abortion is self defense.

2. We have the right not to be murdered or otherwise killed unjustly. Though this response is confusing to me to say the least.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights
(I am unwilling to copy and paste it here due to that unmentionables legal row with this game) articles number 2 and 3 are what I would have cited, particularly about no discrimination for reasons of birth and the right to life. Many nations including the USA, Canada and the UK have adopted this resolution

Arguments from authority mean nothing.

[Natair]

I am not ignoring everything you say, but in order for there to be a crime you need an actus reus (guilty act) and a mens rea (guilty mind), the unborn foetus might very well be committing a guilty act, but certainly has no capacity to have the guilty mind. It is firstly it is unconsciousness and secondly is only just developing a mind with witch to make decisions. And unless you are found guilty in a court of law you are seen as innocent under the law. Considering that the unborn are legally hardly even regarded as persons under the current law it is impossible to say they are even so much as guilty of a crime. Even if they were persons however they still would not be able to form the mens rea to make the dwelling in the mother's womb without her consent a crime.

SELF-DEFENSE IS NOT JUSTICE

1. self defence is a right in certain circumstances.

And abortion is self defense.

2. We have the right not to be murdered or otherwise killed unjustly. Though this response is confusing to me to say the least.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights
(I am unwilling to copy and paste it here due to that unmentionables legal row with this game) articles number 2 and 3 are what I would have cited, particularly about no discrimination for reasons of birth and the right to life. Many nations including the USA, Canada and the UK have adopted this resolution

Arguments from authority mean nothing.

SELF DEFENSE IS JUST SELF DEFENSE, WE'VE ESTABLISHED THIS ALREADY!
I will avoid breaking the "garish post' rule and leave that uncolored.

[Parchelon]

No I am simply saying that an unborn foetus is not a fully fledged moral agent and is unconscious regardless. It can no more choose to inhabit the womb than a rock can choose to fall. As to a foetus being as important as a rock that is just hogwash.

So, you're admitting that a fetus is no more sentient and important than a rock. But, I'm sick of you ignoring definitions. Let's look at some from the Oxford dictionary, shall we?

guilty Pronunciation: /ˈgɪlti/
Definition of guilty
adjective (guiltier, guiltiest)
culpable of or responsible for a specified wrongdoing:
he was found guilty of manslaughter
Williams pleaded guilty to three separate offences
justly chargeable with a particular fault or error:
she was guilty of a serious error of judgement
conscious of, affected by, or revealing a feeling of guilt:
he felt guilty about the way he had treated her
a guilty conscience
causing a feeling of guilt:
a guilty secret

responsible Pronunciation: /rɪˈspɒnsɪb(ə)l/
Definition of responsible
adjective
1 [predic.] having an obligation to do something, or having control over or care for someone, as part of one’s job or role:
the cabinet minister responsible for Education
(responsible to) having to report to (a superior) and be answerable to them for one’s actions:
the Prime Minister and cabinet are responsible to Parliament
2being the primary cause of something and so able to be blamed or credited for it:
Gooch was responsible for 198 of his side’s 542 runs
morally accountable for one’s behaviour:
the progressive emergence of the child as a responsible being
3(of a job or position) involving important duties, independent decision-making, or control over others:
she had risen rapidly to a high and responsible position in the civil service
capable of being trusted:
a responsible adult

Being guilty has little to do with choice. You're wrong, yet again. But I'm sure you'll ignore this and in 5 pages you'll say, "THE FETUS CAN'T CHOOSE!"

This is high school law 101, our teacher drilled it into us, in order for there to be a crime you must establish that there was an illegal act committed and that the person in question willingly chose to commit the act. A Pilot of an air-plane is responsible for the people on board, but if by no fault of his own an engine explodes and 20 people die he is not at fault because even though he was responsible for their deaths he did not commission the crime.

Willingness to commit a crime is usually assumed and so the primary job of prosecutors is to prove that someone actually committed the criminal act, but again if someone is driving a car and having just past inspection the steering fails and the person careens into another car the driver of the first car wouldn't be guilty of reckless driving now would he? It was not his fault that the incident occurred, in this instance it was probably the inspector being an idiot, but with the airplane above it could just have easily been extreme weather that iced up the engines in a way never before seen that led to the engine just ripping itself apart.

So again back to the unborn, they have no capacity with which to form a guilty mind, much less the mental awareness to make any choices whatsoever and cannot therefore be guilty of a crime.