Why "Planned Parenthood" is wrong.

[Parchelon]

1. Yes but we all know (i would hope) that murder is wrong, so establishing that abortion is murder would obviously mean that abortion is wrong.

But abortion is self-defense.

2. Yes but think about it, blacks were not persons because of their skin colour and whites could profit from it, women because they weren't men and that made men feel superior, Jews because people hated them and that made the so called Aryans feel superior to something, now we say that the first 9 months of every humans existence humans can be freely killed on a whim just because the unborn are exactly where they are supposed to be because sex worked the way it was supposed to when people didn't want it to.

I mean by what authority do we suddenly strip certain human beings of personhood (the unborn) and not others (the born)? Its an ambiguous distinction. The unborn should be in the womb, that is where they have to be or they die.

And in the past defining humans as not persons has resulted in massive abuses of human rights. Women beaten, blacks enslaved and treated like dogs, Jews treated like cockroaches and exterminated like sick cattle. Now we have the unborn humans being killed at a rate of more than 40 million a year world-wide. Source ->

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html

Certainly the courts have claimed the authority to define humans as not human but they have always done a stand up job have they not? Something like 14 million African natives died in the slave trade, no doubt dozens of women from beating, six million Jews in addition to many others like homosexuals and gypsies slaughtered. Should we really trust the courts or governments with the authority to strip humans of personhood by mere dint (or perception) of popular will?

You aren't giving the fetus a higher status. You are enacting totalitarianism.

1. But self defence is viable only if the attacker is a criminal or a belligerent in a conflict, if that person is actually attacking you and if there is no other option but to kill. In the case of abortion none of these are true: the 'attacker' is not a moral agent and is incapable of the mens rea (guilty mind) necessary to commit a crime, they aren't deliberately attacking the mother but are rather simply trying to exist in the only way possible for them, and there are options other than killing to resolve the 'violation' of the mother's rights.
2. How the heck is trying to safeguard both human's rights in this case totalitarianism?

[The Equine Dominion]

Contraceptives defy the will of God.

So does doctors, vaccinations and the internet... and yet you're still here.

Medicines and most technologies (including the internet) don't defy the will of God. Where on Earth did you get that idea?

[The Realm of God]

But abortion is self-defense.

You aren't giving the fetus a higher status. You are enacting totalitarianism.

1. But self defence is viable only if the attacker is a criminal or a belligerent in a conflict, if that person is actually attacking you and if there is no other option but to kill. In the case of abortion none of these are true: the 'attacker' is not a moral agent and is incapable of the mens rea (guilty mind) necessary to commit a crime, they aren't deliberately attacking the mother but are rather simply trying to exist in the only way possible for them, and there are options other than killing to resolve the 'violation' of the mother's rights.
2. How the heck is trying to safeguard both human's rights in this case totalitarianism?

Your denying peoples right to bodily sovereignty.

[Farnhamia]

So does doctors, vaccinations and the internet... and yet you're still here.

Medicines and most technologies (including the internet) don't defy the will of God. Where on Earth did you get that idea?

Are they mentioned in the Bible?

[The Realm of God]

So does doctors, vaccinations and the internet... and yet you're still here.

Medicines and most technologies (including the internet) don't defy the will of God. Where on Earth did you get that idea?

They are not mentioned in the Bible so Evangelical Protestants should abstain from them.

[Zottistan]

Medicines and most technologies (including the internet) don't defy the will of God. Where on Earth did you get that idea?

Are they mentioned in the Bible?

"And so God spoke to Moses; "In a few thousand years, there'll be this thing called the internet. Don't go on it."

[The Realm of God]

Are they mentioned in the Bible?

"And so God spoke to Moses; "In a few thousand years, there'll be this thing called the internet. Don't go on it."

The Lord Spoketh.

"Time travel follows Terminator rules, therefore you can't take anything back in time with you,"

[The Equine Dominion]

Medicines and most technologies (including the internet) don't defy the will of God. Where on Earth did you get that idea?

They are not mentioned in the Bible so Evangelical Protestants should abstain from them.

I don't know about that. I'm a Roman Catholic.

[The Realm of God]

They are not mentioned in the Bible so Evangelical Protestants should abstain from them.

I don't know about that. I'm a Roman Catholic.

I apoligise I thought you took a fundie sola scripture line. Where the Bible is the only text you use for religious practise.

[Tekania]

So does doctors, vaccinations and the internet... and yet you're still here.

Medicines and most technologies (including the internet) don't defy the will of God. Where on Earth did you get that idea?

The same place you got yours from.

[The Equine Dominion]

I don't know about that. I'm a Roman Catholic.

I apoligise I thought you took a fundie sola scripture line. Where the Bible is the only text you use for religious practise.

If it's not mentioned in the Bible, God has no opinion on it, so there's no reason to abstain from it.

[The Realm of God]

I apoligise I thought you took a fundie sola scripture line. Where the Bible is the only text you use for religious practise.

If it's not mentioned in the Bible, God has no opinion on it, so there's no reason to abstain from it.

Right then, so I suppose you can explain to me why masterbation is a sin then?

HINT. It's not in the Bible.

[The Equine Dominion]

If it's not mentioned in the Bible, God has no opinion on it, so there's no reason to abstain from it.

Right then, so I suppose you can explain to me why masterbation is a sin then?

Masturbation is homosexual. Assuming, that is, that you are the same sex as yourself. The Bible stands against homosexuality.

[TheSurvived]

Contraceptives defy the will of God. Abortion is murder. Planned parenthood is fine, as long as you acheive it through abstinance and not the aformentioned blasphemies.

I agree that the woman did violate the law by having a second child. HOWEVER, forcing a woman to have an abortion with a SEVEN-MONTH fetus is simply INHUMANE. Honestly, forcing her to have an abortion simply because she couldn't pay the fine is out of touch. Does that mean money is greater than the law?? Moreover, abortion at an early stage is damaging enough to the woman's body, let alone with a 7-month fetus. It's outrageous! >:O

(excuse me if I'm going over the edge. While I'm not against abortion, a forced one is outrageous enough to drive me nuts.)

That's how fines work. If you don't pay them, for whatever reason, you get punished. If you can't pay your debt to society with money, you will do it with time, or, depending on where you are, blood. This woman has nobody to blame for this but herself.

Is killing her fetus necessary? A quick note to this story, the woman's husband or her relative was preparing the fine. They were almost ready but the officials said they couldn't wait anymore and basically force her to abort her child. Moreover, even if they couldn't get the money that day, they can always pay by months or year until all the fines have been paid off. I don't see aborting her child as a must here. It's a purely inhumane act.

[The Realm of God]

Right then, so I suppose you can explain to me why masterbation is a sin then?

Masturbation is homosexual. Assuming, that is, that you are the same sex as yourself. The Bible stands against homosexuality.

no.

The Vatican follows the line of the philosopher Plato. Plato said that matter was evil and that the mind, the spirit and The Good are good. Masterbation is a sin because it uses the mind, which is good to please the matter which is evil. Thus it's ignoring Jesus' teaching that minds must be pure and you must not sin even in your mind.

"For he who looks lustfully at a women has commited adultary against her,"

Litergical Christianity uses various sources, now lets.

[Natair]

This happened very recently, it's a sad story. Proves to you just how far the Chinese government will go to prevent a second child from being born.
I'm not against abortion, but I don't think forcing a woman to abort her child is a nice thing to do. It's inhumane! And the baby was already 7 month old!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... reach.html (another source)

Of course forcing an abortion on a woman is inhumane, that's why we're pro-choice.

But those pro-forced-abortion bastards... They're just pure evil!

[Parchelon]

Yes but an embryo when formed naturally in the womb has a near certainty of developing into a foetus and being born ...

This is true only if you consider less than a 50% chance to be the same thing as "near certainty".

Determining the prevalence of spontaneous abortions is difficult. Many happen very early in the pregnancy, before a woman may know she is pregnant. Treatment of women without hospitalization means medical statistics misses many cases. Prospective studies using very sensitive early pregnancy tests have found that 25% of pregnancies abort by the sixth week LMP (since the woman's last menstrual period), however, other reports suggest higher rates. One fact sheet from the University of Ottawa states, "The incidence of spontaneous abortion is estimated to be 50% of all pregnancies, based on the assumption that many pregnancies abort spontaneously with no clinical recognition." The NIH reports, "It is estimated that up to half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among those women who know they are pregnant, the miscarriage rate is about 15–20%." Clinical abortions (those occurring after the sixth week LMP) occur in 8% of pregnancies.

The risk of aborting decreases sharply after the 10th week LMP, i.e., when the fetal stage begins. The loss rate between 8.5 weeks LMP and birth is about two percent; loss is “virtually complete by the end of the embryonic period."

The prevalence increases considerably with age of the parents. One study found that pregnancies from men younger than 25 years are 40% less likely to end in spontaneous abortion than pregnancies from men 25–29 years. The same study found that pregnancies from men older than 40 years are 60% more likely to end in spontaneous abortion than the 25–29-year age group. Another study found that the increased risk in pregnancies from older men is mainly seen in the first trimester. Yet another study found an increased risk in women, by the age of 45, on the order of 800% (compared to the 20–24 age group in that study), 75% of pregnancies ended in spontaneous abortion.

- Wikipedia Article on "MIscarriage"

All of which raises a moral question: Should all persons over the age of 30 be forcibly sterilized, in the grounds that any pregnancy they produce has a better than even chance of resulting in the tragic death of an innocent baby?

And - in a similar vein - if a woman miscarries, should she be charged with manslaughter and - given that the viability of her partner's sperm is a factor in the odds of miscarriage - shouldn't the man who got her pregnant be charged as a conspirator in the crime as well?

It seems to me that this is the only moral path forward: If we criminalize sexual activity, we will certainly render all this wasteful talk of abortion and birth control utterly moot.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Right then, so I suppose you can explain to me why masterbation is a sin then?

Masturbation is homosexual. Assuming, that is, that you are the same sex as yourself. The Bible stands against homosexuality.

Can you find me the verse in the Bible where God says "Thou shalt not use contraception"?

Also, how is masturbation homosexual? Homosexuality is being sexually attracted to members of the same sex as oneself. Masturbation is the stimulation of your own genitals, not someone else's of the same gender.

But yes, rather than talking about choice Christian Fundie 'arguments', let's move on.

If it's not mentioned in the Bible, God has no opinion on it, so there's no reason to abstain from it.

Contraceptives defy the will of God.

[Ifreann]

Right then, so I suppose you can explain to me why masterbation is a sin then?

Masturbation is homosexual. Assuming, that is, that you are the same sex as yourself. The Bible stands against homosexuality.

You have a poor understanding of your own religion.

[The Realm of God]

Masturbation is homosexual. Assuming, that is, that you are the same sex as yourself. The Bible stands against homosexuality.

Can you find me the verse in the Bible where God says "Thou shalt not use contraception"?

Also, how is masturbation homosexual? Homosexuality is being sexually attracted to members of the same sex as oneself. Masturbation is the stimulation of your own genitals, not someone else's of the same gender.

But yes, rather than talking about choice Christian Fundie 'arguments', let's move on.

If it's not mentioned in the Bible, God has no opinion on it, so there's no reason to abstain from it.

Yes well, I consider it a semi duty to correct religious ignorance, i.e trying to stop fundementalists using religion to oppress people.

I apoligize.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Can you find me the verse in the Bible where God says "Thou shalt not use contraception"?

Also, how is masturbation homosexual? Homosexuality is being sexually attracted to members of the same sex as oneself. Masturbation is the stimulation of your own genitals, not someone else's of the same gender.

But yes, rather than talking about choice Christian Fundie 'arguments', let's move on.

Yes well, I consider it a semi duty to correct religious ignorance, i.e using religion to oppress people.

I apoligize.

?

[The Realm of God]

Yes well, I consider it a semi duty to correct religious ignorance, i.e using religion to oppress people.

I apoligize.

?

I am just saying that he had a poor understanding of his own faith and that he was trying to force his poor understanding of religion onto people.

So I corrected him and thus went of topic.

[Parchelon]

1. Yes but according to the definition of murder provided the personhood of the unborn was not necessary to prove, just their humanity. Establishing that the foetus was incapable of moral action was something I did to show that it could not be guilty of willingly violating its mother's rights, thus making it innocent

NO. This is why I mentioned chickens and pigs and oxen. Maybe I should have dumbed it down even more for you, and talked about trees. Or rocks.

Because something is not capable of being guilty does not mean it is innocent. That is a false dualism. There is a null state as well: not innocent, not guilty: NEITHER, by reason of being incapable of either.

of any crime in the situation. If it is human and innocent then it is merely an additional unwilling participant in the situation.

As a tree is a participant in the "situation" of a tree felling. As a rock is a participant in the "situation" of someone sitting on it.

(I use the quote marks not to mock you, but to indicate that I am unsure of the meaning of "situation" and am trying to use it in the sense you seem to be using it. I'm wary of the term, since it's modern usage is mostly to refer to social structures: an immediate social environment involving people.)

1. In the normal run of criminal justice systems courts must rule on weather someone is found guilty (beyond reasonable doubt) of a crime in order to be sentenced to jail time or whatever for a crime. Someone is either found guilty and sentenced or is declared innocent.

2. Yes but if a rock falls on someone you hardly would declare it anything other than innocent in the injury since it cannot chose to fall. Thus the unborn are just as innocent of the violation of their mother's rights because they simply cannot chose to do anything in the situation.

[Grinning Dragon]

Right then, so I suppose you can explain to me why masterbation is a sin then?

Masturbation is homosexual. Assuming, that is, that you are the same sex as yourself. The Bible stands against homosexuality.

Wow just wow.

Tell me something. Before religion was founded and the Bible was written, all of those people before such a time that engaged in winding the magic sun dial in a fast and furious self gratifying manner, were all condemned to hell? How would such people know of their supposed sin, if they didn't know about it?
This is one of the problems I have with religious teachings that force such a moral upon its followers.
There is nothing sinful about masturbation.

[The Equine Dominion]

Can you find me the verse in the Bible where God says "Thou shalt not use contraception"?

"Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother."But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother.What he did was wicked in the lord's sight."

As for masturbation, I already said that you are the same sex as yourself. To achieve orgasm at your own hands shows at least some level of auto eroticism, which is homosexual.