Why "Planned Parenthood" is wrong.

[Ifreann]

We all know the American Way is bassackwards.

Enough of this. I'm not American, but I use the form fetus because it is shorter, and does not conflict with any other word.

Heretic!




I don't think I will ever stop enjoying that gif.

[Tekania]

If by "near certainty" you mean about a 75% chance of.... then yes.

Less than that, if you take it from conception.

Until implantation, the woman has no physical symptoms which can be measured (eg pregnancy test). The blastocyst is "in the womb" before implantation and there is no way of measuring its mortality. Probably a majority of fertilized eggs (then blastocysts) die even before implantation, but that's just a guess.

Where this stupid idea of conception being the start of personhood came from I do not know. Catholic dogma perhaps. It certainly isn't in the Bible. It's not even in the later derivative work of Muhammad. Those writings speak of "quickening" ... well after the stage that modern medicine can detect a pregnancy.

Not sure where it comes from either. I think it's mostly just picking a moral idea and then using whatever may appear to support it while discarding the rest.

[Natair]

We all know the American Way is bassackwards.

Enough of this. I'm not American, but I use the form fetus because it is shorter, and does not conflict with any other word.

Hey, calm down, I'm American. But yeah, we should be on topic.

[Cogitation]

You're an idiot.

Borderline flaming.

You're a horrible person.

Borderline flaming.

Oh, you're a troll, too.

Then don't feed him.

Attack the argument, not the poster. If you think someone is trolling, then don't feed the trolls.

No Official Warning this time, but don't let this turn into a habit.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

[Risottia]

You're an idiot.

Borderline flaming.

"Borderline"?

[TheSurvived]

in china those late term abortions are forced by the government. they want her not to have that baby. there isnt going to be any funding of a Csection.

Source?

This happened very recently, it's a sad story. Proves to you just how far the Chinese government will go to prevent a second child from being born.
I'm not against abortion, but I don't think forcing a woman to abort her child is a nice thing to do. It's inhumane! And the baby was already 7 month old!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... reach.html (another source)

[Grinning Dragon]

Would now be a good time to inject the use of the morning after pill?

[Ifreann]

Would now be a good time to inject the use of the morning after pill?

Couldn't hurt.

[Grinning Dragon]

Would now be a good time to inject the use of the morning after pill?

Couldn't hurt.

I agree. Seems to be a more cost effective solution than going to a clinic.

[Zottistan]

Source?

This happened very recently, it's a sad story. Proves to you just how far the Chinese government will go to prevent a second child from being born.
I'm not against abortion, but I don't think forcing a woman to abort her child is a nice thing to do. It's inhumane! And the baby was already 7 month old!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... reach.html (another source)

Well, the one child policy in China is the law, and with good reason. You don't have a "right" to violate the law.

[The Little Harmonic Labyrinth]

Source?

This happened very recently, it's a sad story. Proves to you just how far the Chinese government will go to prevent a second child from being born.
I'm not against abortion, but I don't think forcing a woman to abort her child is a nice thing to do. It's inhumane! And the baby was already 7 month old!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... reach.html (another source)

First note: Fetus, not baby, remember. A seven-month-old baby would be one who had been born and was living and growing outside the womb; to "abort" a baby could be murder. A seven-month-old fetus (the term that the first article uses) hasn't been born.

Second note: The Daily Mail shouldn't ever be used as a source. It's a tabloid that loves shock stories and gossip.

Anyway, that's a horrible story, and abortions shouldn't ever be forced.

[Blakk Metal]

I don't 'instinctively know' that aborting a foetus is wrong. So there's that one down the drain.



How is this relevant? Just because black people, or lepers, or people with mental disabilities, or whoever else, have been defined as not being people in the past shouldn't mean we have to define semi-formed human foetuses as people...

1. Yes but we all know (i would hope) that murder is wrong, so establishing that abortion is murder would obviously mean that abortion is wrong.

But abortion is self-defense.

2. Yes but think about it, blacks were not persons because of their skin colour and whites could profit from it, women because they weren't men and that made men feel superior, Jews because people hated them and that made the so called Aryans feel superior to something, now we say that the first 9 months of every humans existence humans can be freely killed on a whim just because the unborn are exactly where they are supposed to be because sex worked the way it was supposed to when people didn't want it to.

I mean by what authority do we suddenly strip certain human beings of personhood (the unborn) and not others (the born)? Its an ambiguous distinction. The unborn should be in the womb, that is where they have to be or they die.

And in the past defining humans as not persons has resulted in massive abuses of human rights. Women beaten, blacks enslaved and treated like dogs, Jews treated like cockroaches and exterminated like sick cattle. Now we have the unborn humans being killed at a rate of more than 40 million a year world-wide. Source ->

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html

Certainly the courts have claimed the authority to define humans as not human but they have always done a stand up job have they not? Something like 14 million African natives died in the slave trade, no doubt dozens of women from beating, six million Jews in addition to many others like homosexuals and gypsies slaughtered. Should we really trust the courts or governments with the authority to strip humans of personhood by mere dint (or perception) of popular will?

You aren't giving the fetus a higher status. You are enacting totalitarianism.

Source.

Anyway, many people miscarry/have stillbirths. You're demonstrably incorrect.

It's "common sense" ... ie, completely unscientific, ideological wishful thinking.

But you'll probably get provided a "source" anyway, to waste fifteen minutes of your time with the debunking. It must suck for Parchelon to be ganged up on so. I must suck to be so wrong. Being wrong fifteen minutes in the future (a page or two later) is better than being wrong right now.

If by "near certainty" you mean about a 75% chance of.... then yes.

Less than that, if you take it from conception.

Until implantation, the woman has no physical symptoms which can be measured (eg pregnancy test). The blastocyst is "in the womb" before implantation and there is no way of measuring its mortality. Probably a majority of fertilized eggs (then blastocysts) die even before implantation, but that's just a guess.

Where this stupid idea of conception being the start of personhood came from I do not know. Catholic dogma perhaps. It certainly isn't in the Bible. It's not even in the later derivative work of Muhammad. Those writings speak of "quickening" ... well after the stage that modern medicine can detect a pregnancy.

According to Carl Sagan, the AMA did.

[Beiluxia]

You do realise that the majority of what Planned Parenthood does has little to do with abortions alone? They also, you know, help parents plan their parenthood with educational classes, give contraceptives and prevention methods, among other things.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Source?

This happened very recently, it's a sad story. Proves to you just how far the Chinese government will go to prevent a second child from being born.
I'm not against abortion, but I don't think forcing a woman to abort her child is a nice thing to do. It's inhumane! And the baby was already 7 month old!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... reach.html (another source)

Of course forcing an abortion on a woman is inhumane, that's why we're pro-choice.

[Tekania]

Would now be a good time to inject the use of the morning after pill?

Sure, but it's usually taken orally.

[Corporate Jesusland]

Yes but an embryo when formed naturally in the womb has a near certainty of developing into a foetus and being born ...

This is true only if you consider less than a 50% chance to be the same thing as "near certainty".

Determining the prevalence of spontaneous abortions is difficult. Many happen very early in the pregnancy, before a woman may know she is pregnant. Treatment of women without hospitalization means medical statistics misses many cases. Prospective studies using very sensitive early pregnancy tests have found that 25% of pregnancies abort by the sixth week LMP (since the woman's last menstrual period), however, other reports suggest higher rates. One fact sheet from the University of Ottawa states, "The incidence of spontaneous abortion is estimated to be 50% of all pregnancies, based on the assumption that many pregnancies abort spontaneously with no clinical recognition." The NIH reports, "It is estimated that up to half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among those women who know they are pregnant, the miscarriage rate is about 15–20%." Clinical abortions (those occurring after the sixth week LMP) occur in 8% of pregnancies.

The risk of aborting decreases sharply after the 10th week LMP, i.e., when the fetal stage begins. The loss rate between 8.5 weeks LMP and birth is about two percent; loss is “virtually complete by the end of the embryonic period."

The prevalence increases considerably with age of the parents. One study found that pregnancies from men younger than 25 years are 40% less likely to end in spontaneous abortion than pregnancies from men 25–29 years. The same study found that pregnancies from men older than 40 years are 60% more likely to end in spontaneous abortion than the 25–29-year age group. Another study found that the increased risk in pregnancies from older men is mainly seen in the first trimester. Yet another study found an increased risk in women, by the age of 45, on the order of 800% (compared to the 20–24 age group in that study), 75% of pregnancies ended in spontaneous abortion.

- Wikipedia Article on "MIscarriage"

All of which raises a moral question: Should all persons over the age of 30 be forcibly sterilized, in the grounds that any pregnancy they produce has a better than even chance of resulting in the tragic death of an innocent baby?

And - in a similar vein - if a woman miscarries, should she be charged with manslaughter and - given that the viability of her partner's sperm is a factor in the odds of miscarriage - shouldn't the man who got her pregnant be charged as a conspirator in the crime as well?

It seems to me that this is the only moral path forward: If we criminalize sexual activity, we will certainly render all this wasteful talk of abortion and birth control utterly moot.

[AiliailiA]

And there you go, with the fallacy of disambiguation.

Being human does not make a fetus a person. You proceed from this point onward to consider the fetus a person and moral agent.

The fetus is incapable of moral action, therefore it is not innocent or guilty any more than a chicken is innocent or guilty.



Or a chicken. Or a pig or ox.



And the same error. Begin talking about "unborn children" then make it "kill a child".



Killing in war is a very awkward example for you. By signing up, a soldier has mens rea? Or at least, is there by choice.

The fetus has no capacity for choice. It's not a moral agent so any comparison with a soldier or a criminal simply makes no sense.

1. Yes but according to the definition of murder provided the personhood of the unborn was not necessary to prove, just their humanity. Establishing that the foetus was incapable of moral action was something I did to show that it could not be guilty of willingly violating its mother's rights, thus making it innocent

NO. This is why I mentioned chickens and pigs and oxen. Maybe I should have dumbed it down even more for you, and talked about trees. Or rocks.

Because something is not capable of being guilty does not mean it is innocent. That is a false dualism. There is a null state as well: not innocent, not guilty: NEITHER, by reason of being incapable of either.

of any crime in the situation. If it is human and innocent then it is merely an additional unwilling participant in the situation.

As a tree is a participant in the "situation" of a tree felling. As a rock is a participant in the "situation" of someone sitting on it.

(I use the quote marks not to mock you, but to indicate that I am unsure of the meaning of "situation" and am trying to use it in the sense you seem to be using it. I'm wary of the term, since it's modern usage is mostly to refer to social structures: an immediate social environment involving people.)

[TheSurvived]

This happened very recently, it's a sad story. Proves to you just how far the Chinese government will go to prevent a second child from being born.
I'm not against abortion, but I don't think forcing a woman to abort her child is a nice thing to do. It's inhumane! And the baby was already 7 month old!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... reach.html (another source)

First note: Fetus, not baby, remember. A seven-month-old baby would be one who had been born and was living and growing outside the womb; to "abort" a baby could be murder. A seven-month-old fetus (the term that the first article uses) hasn't been born.

Second note: The Daily Mail shouldn't ever be used as a source. It's a tabloid that loves shock stories and gossip.


Anyway, that's a horrible story, and abortions shouldn't ever be forced.

Ah thanks on the note about word usages.
Anyhow, thisis a more reliable source. It's from ABC. I hope you fine this one a bit more reliable.

[The Equine Dominion]

Contraceptives defy the will of God. Abortion is murder. Planned parenthood is fine, as long as you acheive it through abstinance and not the aformentioned blasphemies.

[TheSurvived]

This happened very recently, it's a sad story. Proves to you just how far the Chinese government will go to prevent a second child from being born.
I'm not against abortion, but I don't think forcing a woman to abort her child is a nice thing to do. It's inhumane! And the baby was already 7 month old!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... reach.html (another source)

Well, the one child policy in China is the law, and with good reason. You don't have a "right" to violate the law.

I agree that the woman did violate the law by having a second child. HOWEVER, forcing a woman to have an abortion with a SEVEN-MONTH fetus is simply INHUMANE. Honestly, forcing her to have an abortion simply because she couldn't pay the fine is out of touch. Does that mean money is greater than the law?? Moreover, abortion at an early stage is damaging enough to the woman's body, let alone with a 7-month fetus. It's outrageous! >:O

(excuse me if I'm going over the edge. While I'm not against abortion, a forced one is outrageous enough to drive me nuts.)

[The Realm of God]

Contraceptives defy the will of God. Abortion is murder. Planned parenthood is fine, as long as you acheive it through abstinance and not the aformentioned blasphemies.

Jesus, I hope your jokeing.

[TheSurvived]

This happened very recently, it's a sad story. Proves to you just how far the Chinese government will go to prevent a second child from being born.
I'm not against abortion, but I don't think forcing a woman to abort her child is a nice thing to do. It's inhumane! And the baby was already 7 month old!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... reach.html (another source)

Of course forcing an abortion on a woman is inhumane, that's why we're pro-choice.

I second that.

[Farnhamia]

Contraceptives defy the will of God. Abortion is murder. Planned parenthood is fine, as long as you acheive it through abstinance and not the aformentioned blasphemies.

The 8th century called, they want to know when you're coming home.

[Zottistan]

Contraceptives defy the will of God. Abortion is murder. Planned parenthood is fine, as long as you acheive it through abstinance and not the aformentioned blasphemies.

Well, the one child policy in China is the law, and with good reason. You don't have a "right" to violate the law.

I agree that the woman did violate the law by having a second child. HOWEVER, forcing a woman to have an abortion with a SEVEN-MONTH fetus is simply INHUMANE. Honestly, forcing her to have an abortion simply because she couldn't pay the fine is out of touch. Does that mean money is greater than the law?? Moreover, abortion at an early stage is damaging enough to the woman's body, let alone with a 7-month fetus. It's outrageous! >:O

(excuse me if I'm going over the edge. While I'm not against abortion, a forced one is outrageous enough to drive me nuts.)

That's how fines work. If you don't pay them, for whatever reason, you get punished. If you can't pay your debt to society with money, you will do it with time, or, depending on where you are, blood. This woman has nobody to blame for this but herself.

[Tekania]

Contraceptives defy the will of God.

So does doctors, vaccinations and the internet... and yet you're still here.