Govt is corrupt, so why do liberals want bigger govt !?!?

[Choronzon]

Obvious GOP shill is obvious GOP shill. Notice how he refers only to "RINOs" but not other Republicans.

[Aethyopea]

So in order to prove that we're independent thinkers, we're supposed to do exactly what you say we should do and real world money for some book. Uh-huh.

no, it is just a short easy read that I recommend to balance a lifetime of fallacies that you were taught by govt. funded self-interested teachers in public education.

if you want to learn more about how government corrupts and destroys societal wealth to serve itself rather than the very people it claims to want to help--- check with some libertarians on what they recommend you read.

and dont hate the message -- just hate me.

Then why did you say "you have a shred of independence or objectivity in your thinking--- read 'how capitalism saved AMerica" by dilorenzo " That sounds like we aren't independent unless we read your book.
that's a pretty big problem: your message is so clouded in random insults, weird slogans, rants about "the liberal mind"/"tenured professors" and wierd orders like that that I don't even know what you're saying half the time.
in other words, half the time I don't even know what the message actually IS.

[AuSable River]

The legitimacy and power of said monopoly of force is derived from the people through the democratic process. We would have no such authority over cartels or monopolies in the private market.

Exactly this.

consumers are king in a free society because they are largely 100% satisfied every time they 'vote" moreover they get to choose from myriad suppliers in a decentralized, free and voluntary framework every single time they step out of the door.

in contrast, govt is coercive, it has no competition, you vote for the lesser of two evils once every 2,4,6 years, and when/if your choice gets in office --- he/she rejects responsible governance because he/she can but special interest votes and acquire campaign contributions in a quid pro quo scheme of preferential tax and regulatory policy for votes and bribes.

moreover, the government you fawn over has accumulated over $50-100 trillion in unfunded debt that represents a SURVIVAL level threat to the republic.

in contrast, when someone or something screws up in the free market --- it doesnt cost a dime of tax payers money.

hence, within capitalism if a firm fails = bankruptcy.

within your loving govt failure = more taxes, more power, and societal collapse somewhere down the line.

govt is the most oppressive, wasteful, corrupt, and unresponsive of all monopolies with all the guns, gavels, and legisilattive power and illogically you want to expand it and preserve it to protect us from a single cartel within the consumer market.

[AuSable River]

no, it is just a short easy read that I recommend to balance a lifetime of fallacies that you were taught by govt. funded self-interested teachers in public education.

if you want to learn more about how government corrupts and destroys societal wealth to serve itself rather than the very people it claims to want to help--- check with some libertarians on what they recommend you read.

and dont hate the message -- just hate me.

Then why did you say "you have a shred of independence or objectivity in your thinking--- read 'how capitalism saved AMerica" by dilorenzo " That sounds like we aren't independent unless we read your book.
that's a pretty big problem: your message is so clouded in random insults, weird slogans, rants about "the liberal mind"/"tenured professors" and wierd orders like that that I don't even know what you're saying half the time.
in other words, half the time I don't even know what the message actually IS.

get real dude, government isnt your friend --- it is playing you to serve itself.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/0 ... 69377.html

thoughtfully read some opposing capitalist views with an open mind and get back with me.

and take a break from michael moore (who by the way makes more money that all of us combined).

[Blakk Metal]

Exactly this.

consumers are king in a free society because they are largely 100% satisfied every time they 'vote" moreover they get to choose from myriad suppliers in a decentralized, free and voluntary framework every single time they step out of the door.

in contrast, govt is coercive, it has no competition, you vote for the lesser of two evils once every 2,4,6 years, and when/if your choice gets in office --- he/she rejects responsible governance because he/she can but special interest votes and acquire campaign contributions in a quid pro quo scheme of preferential tax and regulatory policy for votes and bribes.

moreover, the government you fawn over has accumulated over $50-100 trillion in unfunded debt that represents a SURVIVAL level threat to the republic.

in contrast, when someone or something screws up in the free market --- it doesnt cost a dime of tax payers money.

hence, within capitalism if a firm fails = bankruptcy.

within your loving govt failure = more taxes, more power, and societal collapse somewhere down the line.

govt is the most oppressive, wasteful, corrupt, and unresponsive of all monopolies with all the guns, gavels, and legisilattive power and illogically you want to expand it and preserve it to protect us from a single cartel within the consumer market.

Try blaming the government for Microsoft and neo-AT&T.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Then why did you say "you have a shred of independence or objectivity in your thinking--- read 'how capitalism saved AMerica" by dilorenzo " That sounds like we aren't independent unless we read your book.
that's a pretty big problem: your message is so clouded in random insults, weird slogans, rants about "the liberal mind"/"tenured professors" and wierd orders like that that I don't even know what you're saying half the time.
in other words, half the time I don't even know what the message actually IS.

get real dude, government isnt your friend --- it is playing you to serve itself.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/0 ... 69377.html

thoughtfully read some opposing capitalist views with an open mind and get back with me.

and take a break from michael moore (who by the way makes more money that all of us combined).

Not one word of that is an actual response to what was said to you - do you actually take in what people say, or are your comments on some kind of loop?

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

in contrast, when someone or something screws up in the free market --- it doesnt cost a dime of tax payers money.

Bank failure.

[Blakk Metal]

in contrast, when someone or something screws up in the free market --- it doesnt cost a dime of tax payers money.

Bank failure.

Don't associate me with AuSB.

[Acroticus]

Then why did you say "you have a shred of independence or objectivity in your thinking--- read 'how capitalism saved AMerica" by dilorenzo " That sounds like we aren't independent unless we read your book.
that's a pretty big problem: your message is so clouded in random insults, weird slogans, rants about "the liberal mind"/"tenured professors" and wierd orders like that that I don't even know what you're saying half the time.
in other words, half the time I don't even know what the message actually IS.

get real dude, government isnt your friend --- it is playing you to serve itself.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/0 ... 69377.html

thoughtfully read some opposing capitalist views with an open mind and get back with me.

and take a break from michael moore (who by the way makes more money that all of us combined).

Have you ever thoughtfully read any Marxist writings?

Besides, government IS there to serve you. Government is not a human and does not have one mind; it can't have this master plan to play people in order to get more power. There is no conspiracy; government is not only your friend, but it is literally you. Anyone who votes is basically a part of the government. Anyone can run for government office with very few exceptions, and so everyone has the power to change government.

Government is a place where people come together and try to make the world better for everyone. In a democracy, government is not to be feared.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Bank failure.

Don't associate me with that fuckwit.

I'm sorry, I thought when I'd written it "There's no way you could have written something that stupid". I've changed it.

[Aethyopea]

Then why did you say "you have a shred of independence or objectivity in your thinking--- read 'how capitalism saved AMerica" by dilorenzo " That sounds like we aren't independent unless we read your book.
that's a pretty big problem: your message is so clouded in random insults, weird slogans, rants about "the liberal mind"/"tenured professors" and wierd orders like that that I don't even know what you're saying half the time.
in other words, half the time I don't even know what the message actually IS.

get real dude, government isnt your friend --- it is playing you to serve itself.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/0 ... 69377.html

thoughtfully read some opposing capitalist views with an open mind and get back with me.

and take a break from michael moore (who by the way makes more money that all of us combined).

I haven't supported government in any of my posts on this thread and I have never actually watched Michael Moore (I have no idea why you even think I would. There are places other than America you know). My argument was about how your message is garbled and had nothing to do with the government.
This might seem OOC at first, but it's really hard for me to discuss the government if I don't understand the person I'm discussing it with.

[Acroticus]

Bank failure.

Don't associate me with that fuckwit.

Also not true. The stock market now affects everyone. Even if you don't own any stocks if the free market fucks up the stock market everyone loses money. That is why government must regulate the free market.

[Des-Bal]

Wait a minute... yep. Your post gave me hepatitis.

[Blakk Metal]

Don't associate me with that fuckwit.

Also not true. The stock market now affects everyone. Even if you don't own any stocks if the free market fucks up the stock market everyone loses money. That is why government must regulate the free market.

I AM NOT AuSB!

[Silent Majority]

Exactly this.

consumers are king in a free society because they are largely 100% satisfied every time they 'vote" moreover they get to choose from myriad suppliers in a decentralized, free and voluntary framework every single time they step out of the door.

I again repeat, liberals are not against capitalism.

in contrast, govt is coercive, it has no competition, you vote for the lesser of two evils once every 2,4,6 years, and when/if your choice gets in office --- he/she rejects responsible governance because he/she can but special interest votes and acquire campaign contributions in a quid pro quo scheme of preferential tax and regulatory policy for votes and bribes.

Which is why we have campaign finance reform, and electoral reform.

I ultimately agree with you that the tax and regulatory codes are a mess, and that this is a symptom of our campaign finance system. I maintain that it is fixable.

moreover, the government you fawn over has accumulated over $50-100 trillion in unfunded debt that represents a SURVIVAL level threat to the republic.

Largely due to tax cuts, and measures that were taken to prevent to collapse of the economy. Short term debt isn't a big issue, but yes in the long term we need to eliminate it.

in contrast, when someone or something screws up in the free market --- it doesnt cost a dime of tax payers money.

hence, within capitalism if a firm fails = bankruptcy.

within your loving govt failure = more taxes, more power, and societal collapse somewhere down the line.

govt is the most oppressive, wasteful, corrupt, and unresponsive of all monopolies with all the guns, gavels, and legisilattive power and illogically you want to expand it and preserve it to protect us from a single cartel within the consumer market.

The government is not inherently oppressive,wasteful,corrupt, or unresponsive. Those factors are all determined by how it is set up.

You have admitted that you are not an anarchist, so you agree that government intervention in society, even if only limited, is necessary for the stability of our society. I ask of you, what makes the economy any different? It is part of our society, it is ultimately determined by the actions of people. How is the government taking action to keep people from killing each other any different than preventing firms from harming consumers?

[Patriqvinia]

microsoft aint that bad. and I use it voluntarily.

jeez the version I am using is free with my $150 computer and it works pretty good.

and last time I checked, microsoft wasnt banging down my door or taking money out of my paycheck without accountability.

if you dont like it or you can do better.--- use linux or form your own operating system

WOW, we are all slaves to the evil microsoft corporation.

wwooooooooo woooooooooooooooooo

help me government, i give you all my liberties so that you can save me from the boogeyman bill gates and his evil microsoft military machine.

save us !!!!

Microsoft has yet to go out of business, even though its servers, operation systems, internet services, and pretty much everything else suck. According to you, it should've.

Now fail to knock down my other points.

if your independent thinking, rational, and objective

peruse this and get back with me:

http://mises.org/daily/5266/

Explain the new AT&T for me.

i think this debunks your wiki-centric wisdom:

http://mises.org/daily/5266/

nonetheless, it is supremely illogical that the liberal mind believes in the lunacy of creating the mother of all monopolies -- the federal government with all the guns, gavels, legislative power -- to protect us from a hypothetical single cartel in consumer based industries.

Bizarre if you ask me.

and you cannot reconcile this irrational stance.

AT&T. Your point is invalid.

You realize AT&T and Microsoft are, and have always been a patent trolls, right?

[Acroticus]

consumers are king in a free society because they are largely 100% satisfied every time they 'vote" moreover they get to choose from myriad suppliers in a decentralized, free and voluntary framework every single time they step out of the door.

I again repeat, liberals are not against capitalism.

in contrast, govt is coercive, it has no competition, you vote for the lesser of two evils once every 2,4,6 years, and when/if your choice gets in office --- he/she rejects responsible governance because he/she can but special interest votes and acquire campaign contributions in a quid pro quo scheme of preferential tax and regulatory policy for votes and bribes.

Which is why we have campaign finance reform, and electoral reform.

I ultimately agree with you that the tax and regulatory codes are a mess, and that this is a symptom of our campaign finance system. I maintain that it is fixable.

moreover, the government you fawn over has accumulated over $50-100 trillion in unfunded debt that represents a SURVIVAL level threat to the republic.

Largely due to tax cuts, and measures that were taken to prevent to collapse of the economy. Short term debt isn't a big issue, but yes in the long term we need to eliminate it.

in contrast, when someone or something screws up in the free market --- it doesnt cost a dime of tax payers money.

hence, within capitalism if a firm fails = bankruptcy.

within your loving govt failure = more taxes, more power, and societal collapse somewhere down the line.

govt is the most oppressive, wasteful, corrupt, and unresponsive of all monopolies with all the guns, gavels, and legisilattive power and illogically you want to expand it and preserve it to protect us from a single cartel within the consumer market.

The government is not inherently oppressive,wasteful,corrupt, or unresponsive. Those factors are all determined by how it is set up.

You have admitted that you are not an anarchist, so you agree that government intervention in society, even if only limited, is necessary for the stability of our society. I ask of you, what makes the economy any different? It is part of our society, it is ultimately determined by the actions of people. How is the government taking action to keep people from killing each other any different than preventing firms from harming consumers?

I'll say it again: This Guy! He deserves a response

[Blakk Metal]

Delete this post

[Patriqvinia]

You realize AT&T is, and has always been a patent troll, right?

STOP MISTAKING ME WITH THAT DIPSHIT!

What are you talking about? You're making the claim that AT&T and Microsoft have monopolies "because free market" right?

[Blakk Metal]

What are you talking about? You're making the claim that AT&T and Microsoft have monopolies "because free market" right?

I'm saying that even if the government were to fuck off, and there was still capitalism, neo-AT&T and Microsoft would still be total fucks, and have monopolies in their respective areas.

[Miss Defied]

1) the government still has most of the guns honey.

But you weren't speaking of the present, you were referring to your magical "free and voluntary society" of the future. Why would there be no guns? I'm just trying to get a handle on how this unicorns and rainbows free-market fantasy-land will function.

And why do you continue to attempt to demean me personally by using the term "honey" when I've asked you not to refer to me using that term?

2) I  love how liberals cant answer this question.     again, for the 10th time --  in a free society --- what if someone who holds  a valued resource doesnt want to sell it to an aspiring cartel ????

Last time it was the 16th time, so this time would be the 17th would it not?
Also, i'm not a liberal nor am I arguing whatever point it is you are attempting to put down by tossing around a bunch of hypotheticals. So, I'll pass.

and no, crime isnt legal and unenforceable within a free society because you still have government and you still have government courts.

-snip irrelevant ramblings-

-snip irrelevant ramblings-

Oh so there's still a government in this world? How is it, and the courts funded? Through charitable donations?

3)if it is revisionist history than debunk it.

I don't have to. It fails to present a proper argument in and of itself. There is nothing to debunk except a few people's opinion that Standard Oil was treated unfairly and misunderstood from the very beginning. 

you just cant debunk an argument by labeling it without any substantive logic, facts, or empirical evidence.

That's just rich, coming from you.

[Patriqvinia]

What are you talking about? You're making the claim that AT&T and Microsoft have monopolies "because free market" right?

I'm saying that even if the government were to fuck off, and there was still capitalism, neo-AT&T and Microsoft would still be total fucks, and have monopolies in their respective areas.

Despite the fact that they depend on patents for support of said monopolies market shares?

[Rhinostan]

If you want a corrupt Government, then go to Mexico, because the US Government is nothing compared to how corrupt Mexico's is.

[Avenio]

I'm saying that even if the government were to fuck off, and there was still capitalism, neo-AT&T and Microsoft would still be total fucks, and have monopolies in their respective areas.

Despite the fact that they depend on patents for support of said monopolies market shares?

Why wouldn't patents be enforced by private courts?

[Trotskylvania]

Well...

Crony banksters have nothing to do with free markets.

The same way real world victims have nothing to do with unicorns.

Unicorns might be cool, but they don't exist.