Govt is corrupt, so why do liberals want bigger govt !?!?

[Blakk Metal]

There is no point in trying to say something Conservative in a NS forum without getting the standard blame America first, pro Marx/Communism/athiest/socialism/etc. bull. But before i go, Nobama, NRA ftw, Iraq=mission acomplished, no abortion, no gays, capitalism ftw, and Romney 2012

Obvious troll

Let's see...
Wamitoria holds economically conservative ideals...
There's that Secruss guy.
And there's a few more that I can't remember the name of...

Either they're good, or I just really suck at debating online. Hell, I have a hard time against that Mongolian Ikhanate guy sometimes...

There's also Occupied Deutschland and Capitalist Running Dogs. And doesn't Sibirsky still come over here once in a while?

You forgot CD and Nidaria.

And the alternative are large companies taking over the state much easier because now they don't need to pay more money to get majority votes and shit. Great idea.

dude, you and other big government types have never explained the mechanism of how these boogeyman corporations 'take' over the nation in the absence of government.

the only lame response I get to describe this mechanism is that they just do.

I dont want the end result of your fantasyland view ---- I want the process.

IN sum, your not thinking clearly, you just make things up as you go based on a flimsy leftwing framework that you were told existed by your teachers, pop culture, and the media.

start thinking for yourself

and for the 10th time I challenge you to describe the PROCESS of how a corporation gains power over the rest of society.

When/if you do this --- I can easily debunk and expose this nonsense. but apparently those on the Left cant even begin to intelligently and rationally describe the process --- they just say 'it happens" ??!!!

They buy natural monopolies and resources...

It's not that hard to understand.

[AuSable River]

Again young confused one, you are as brainwashed as all who watch fox news. When the governemnt spends money it does not simply disappear. Also the percentage of money that goes to special interest is relatively small (not counting wars or the people as special interest groups.)

And not rediculous... fact: NASA created digital technology
Fact: government funded research developed the internet into what we use today.
Fact: because of US aid, the percentage of people with AIds in Africa is ever lower.

And also, "most" is the wrong word. The correct word would be "one-fourth" I believe, referring to the borrowed money from the FED. Someone check me on the numbers.

Yes and millions more people would die each year in the US and abroad if the federal spending level was drastically reduced, don't forget that.== Acroticus

FED government has a role in dealing with external threats and acting as the legal arbiter of last resort -- however if virtually domestic spending was cut -- the states would fill the void as they were originally intended to do.

Hence your partisan hyperbole is tedious.

Without the money they would be as unable to build as they are unable to destroy.---acroticus

your obviously not ready to hear my arguments based on these juvenile partisan posts -- but I will try this last time.

1st money is a piece of paper with ink on it ---- it cant build or destroy anything. UNless, government prints too much ---this i s inflation.

2nd government TOOK the money by coercive means from the private sector --- government didnt earn it dude !!!!

without the private sector producing goods and services --- the government cant do diddling squat !!!!

Let's not forget; the government brought us the internet, digital technology, the cure for many diseases, and much more all as a result of government spending.--arctus

and my challenge to you is:

if the government was so incredible and all knowing --- then why do these clowns need other people's money in prodigous amounts taken at threat of a gun to fund their politically motivated schemes ??????

why dont politicians and bureaucrats simply open their own company, compete for customers without tax powers on a level playing field if they are so knowledgable and brilliant ????

ponder these points while considering that the internet, space travel, nancy pelosi's face lifts, joe bidens hair plugs, michelle obama's overseas junkets, and wall street CEO raises is ALL funded by free market firms and individuals.

IN sum, government doesnt fund anything ---- it takes.

and lastly, liberals fail to consider these points:

1) if these schemes are best managed by government --- why does government have to steal the money from the private sector them

2) if these schemes are so desired, why does government have to steal the money from the private sector to fund them

3) what would have happened to this wealth if it hadnt gone to politically motivated coercive schemes in government -- instead it would have went to free, voluntary and competitive uses in the private sector ???

hence you dont consider the extreme opportunity costs of this money being controlled by politicians and their cronies (big pharma, NASA, big unions, et al) instead of a free people in a free society.

4) government didnt cure cancer, go to the moon, build the internet et al ---- it primarily contracted out these services to private industry which in turn found far more beneficial and profitable uses for this technology after government left the scene.

Indeed, the private sector just sent an space craft into orbit at costs considerably below that of NASA!

in sum, the private sector can do anything your fantasyland government can do --- and it does it by funding from voluntary sources, without a dime of taxpayer money at risk, and without a dime of corruption from political lobbying

but this is the last time I respond to your base posts --- go read "how capitalism saved America" by dilorenzo to get a framework to understand what I am trying to describe

then get back with me.

[AuSable River]

1. If there is a monopoly, especially if that monopoly covers an essential service, then it would not be voluntary as you would have no choice but to buy from that company

2. Boycotts are ineffective and boycotting the provider of an essential service, especially if there is a monopoly of said service, would for all practical purposes be impossible.

3. I would argue that that is what elections are for. If someone is failing at their job as a public official, they can be replaced.

4. In an authoritarian or otherwise oppressive government sure, but we don't have an authoritarian government. With some exceptions, civil liberties are generally respected.

5. Brute physical force is not the only source of power. Wealth is power.

Without government intervention in the economy, corporations would be free to trash the rights of their employees, produce unsafe products, and monopolies would almost certainly form due to the lack of antitrust laws.

So yes no one would try to buy our government anymore, but only because our government would be useless.

Aha, this guy.

if you have a shred of independence or objectivity in your thinking--- read 'how capitalism saved AMerica" by dilorenzo

it is for beginners, but you would benefit from it.

then get back with me -- without the inane trollish retorts devoid of fact, logic and empirical support.

hence, I wont waste anymore time trying to enlighten you.

[The United Soviet Socialist Republic]

Because Socialists, State Capitalists and Fascists understand that government is essential to the market. Nationalised industries provide a nice source of income for the government and then they can use that to increase the funding for the military or build new schools, government regulation keeps the private sector on the right track so it doesnt swerve and cause a reccession.

[Miss Defied]

Aha, this guy.

if you have a shred of independence or objectivity in your thinking--- read 'how capitalism saved AMerica" by dilorenzo

it is for beginners, but you would benefit from it.

then get back with me -- without the inane trollish retorts devoid of fact, logic and empirical support.

hence, I wont waste anymore time trying to enlighten you.

If big goverment is the problem, why is it only the liberal's fault?

[Yes Im Biop]

I wasn't aware i wanted a bigger one...

[Sibirsky]

The free market is more corrupt and more coercive.

[Sibirsky]

now how is it that the free market is corrupt?

Well...

Crony banksters have nothing to do with free markets.

[Sibirsky]

The OP is full of shit. Let's enlighten him.

(Image)

Another.

(Image)

Intentionally misleading chart is bullshit.

[AuSable River]

You want to hear the really funny (but sad and unfortunate ) thing about the nonsense from the Left.

It is that they always lament that a single corporation could take over a free society in the absence of government by:



when in fact that is what corrupt and self-serving governments have DONE !!!!

the illogic is that these deluding leftists advocate creating the very thing they most fear to protect them from something that doesnt exist and couldnt exist in a free society!!!!

and you folks wonder why I use phrases like drone, brainwashed, deluded, illogical, et al ...

The difference being that we have a say in how the government is run, whereas with corporations unless you own part of all of said corporation you do not have a say.

funny, you have a say????

what about the other 49% whose candidate didnt win ???

and what kind of say do you have when the lesser of two evils gets into office ???

did you have a say when the CEOs gave themselves bonus' after they were bailed out

did you have a say when the government spent billions fighting in iraq and afghanistan?

did you have a say when the government wasted billions giving money to solar energy firms

did you have a say as the government runs up over $100 trillion in unfunded debt due to entitlement programs


in sum, you DONT have much of a SAY .--- Nobody is happy with the govt does, and to make matters worse they have no competition, so you take it with little recourse.

In contrast, within the free market everytime you step out of the door, YOU HAVE A SAY, and you either are satisfied or the firm doesnt get your return business and possibly goes broke.

[Blakk Metal]

Because Socialists, State Capitalists and Fascists understand that government is essential to the market. Nationalised industries provide a nice source of income for the government and then they can use that to increase the funding for the military or build new schools, government regulation keeps the private sector on the right track so it doesnt swerve and cause a reccession.

All self-respecting socialists would say fuck those guys.

[Wu Wei Shan]

did you have a say as the government runs up over $100 trillion in unfunded debt due to entitlement programs

We don't have a say when trolls serve make shit up sundaes with a talking point on top either.

PS the internet was a government program

[The United Soviet Socialist Republic]

Because Socialists, State Capitalists and Fascists understand that government is essential to the market. Nationalised industries provide a nice source of income for the government and then they can use that to increase the funding for the military or build new schools, government regulation keeps the private sector on the right track so it doesnt swerve and cause a reccession.

All self-respecting socialists would say fuck those guys.

They all advocate big government.

[AuSable River]

ANd I debunked and retired your argument in short order --

I will do so again for your benefit.

an essential role for government --or rather a system of government -- is to promote life, liberty, and private property. Since it is corrupt and coercive, it cannot be trusted to do this --- government must intentionally be decentralized, balanced, limited, and made transparent.

Hence our constitutional federal republic.

Indeed, this system of government has been effective at promoting civil and political liberties among the states and people who practice some form of liberal democracy.

Essentially our founding fathers very nearly got it right --- except for some shortcomings both foreseen and unforeseen.

Among these was the ability of despots or those seeking power for political gain to usurp the constitution system via economic means or economic coercion.

Hence the need for an Economic Bill of Rights (balanced budget amendment, limit spending to a pre-established % of GDP, strengthen federalism, et al) to protect the citizenry from corruption and despotism by economic coercion.

so there you have it.

maybe you didnt understand my response -- however it is simple ---- indeed government cannot be trusted so we intentionally weaken it by decentalizing it.

Yet within a liberal democracy, this shortcoming is not fatal in the area of national defense because the economic, technological, civil and cultural strength and loyalties are more than enough to overcome the centrally controlled miilitariese of autocratic nations.

Moreover, I dont have a problem using government within a liberal democracy to undermine far more clear and present dangers that exist from expansionist global autocratic regimes.

so there you have it.

I advocate and 'trust' government when it is used to undermine itself -- hence create a political and miilitary framework where politicians and autocrats fight among themselves for the few political spoils we free people allow them to have.

it diverts them from negatively influencing our civil and economic life --- and it is fun to watch them trash each other in an ultimately futile attempt at gaining power.


you stand corrected, again.

Do you have a problem reading?

Here was his response; mine will (eventually) be forthcoming.

Kind of hard for you to correct me "again" why you haven't corrected me for the FIRST time.

then re-post it

I dont have time to go back and read every inane, fallacious and trollish post devoid of fact, logic, and emprical supporting evidence.

and for the 12th time, I challenged you to describe the process whereby a boogeyman corporation gains control over a free soceity in the absence of government collaboration.

and if you had a previous post that described this process, then kindly repost it. but please no more diversions

and no more of this nonsense "" the corporations mysteriously captures all of the resources "" ??!!!

this is not a process, this is the endgame -- hence this is crap.

[Miss Defied]

and what kind of say do you have when the lesser of two evils gets into office ???

How is this the liberal's fault?

did you have a say when the CEOs gave themselves bonus' after they were bailed out

How is this the liberal's fault?

did you have a say when the government spent billions fighting in iraq and afghanistan?

How is this the liberal's fault?

did you have a say when the government wasted billions giving money to solar energy firms

billions? lol no

did you have a say as the government runs up over $100 trillion in unfunded debt due to entitlement programs

$100 trillion on entitlement programs alone? Lol no.

Again, if big government is the problem, why it is just the liberal's fault?

[Wu Wei Shan]

and for the 12th time, I challenged you to describe the process whereby a boogeyman corporation gains control over a free soceity in the absence of government collaboration.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/12251 ... ng-scandal

also

In March 2011, a coalition of family farmers, consumers and other critics of corporate agriculture held a town meeting to protest what they see as unfair consolidation of the nation's food system into the hands of a few multinationals. They contend that global biotech seed leader Monsanto controls the U.S. commercial seed market using unfair, and in some cases illegal, practices. They argue that Monsanto, which develops, licenses and markets genetically altered corn, soybeans and other crops, manipulates the seed market by buying up independent seed companies, patenting seed products, and then spiking prices. The group hopes to re-establish farmer rights to save seed from their harvested crops and replant it.

[Blakk Metal]

All self-respecting socialists would say fuck those guys.

They all advocate big government.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

All self-respecting socialists would say fuck those guys.

They all advocate big government.

Worker control of the means of production isn't big government. STATE socialists advocate big government.

[AuSable River]

You mean where the government pays private industry to develop all its weapons and vehicles? And how its actually these businesses that control the government by being those few groups that can produce these supplies, thus making the government simply an employer/consumer of a private industry?--endadial

friggin duh!

and without government as the buyer -- what would happen to these corrupt crony corporations ????

Also, I don't think you have ANY idea what a free market is. First, its non-existent and can't exist, as its a theory. its the perfect market that cannot exist, because it requires both the consumer and producer to have perfect knowledge of economic conditions.--endaidal

nobody has perfect knowledge, most especially government politicians and bureaucrats -- so what ???

99% of free market firms fail, so what????

the difference is that capital, resources, and wealth continually move to investors, individuals, consumers, firms, industries, et al that most efficiently use these resources at a given time in history.

more important, the free market (WHILE NOT PERFECT) has a mechanism to constantly and instantly reallocate resources from less productive uses to more productive uses.

More importantly, it does all this largely by free, competitive and VOLUNTARY MEANS.

in contrast you beloved government is equally unknowing --- yet this is destructive because when it fails and fails and fails and .......

it doesnt go out of business --- it RAISES TAXES and ACQUIRES MORE POWER.

more importantly, government is a political animal ---not an economic actor --- hence all of its actions are based on politics which is proven in many cases to extremely economically unsustainable and wasteful.

Lastly, government is coercive and that is immoral to take somebody else's money by force (taxation) and give it to your lobbyist buddy so you can get reelected with special interest votes or campaign contributions (bribes)

In sum, a free market is impossible, and even attempting a free market in the real world, where emotion, information, and human faults come into play, only create a corrupt system.--endial

big time strawman dude.

nobody is advocating anarchy dude.

go back and read my posts.

[The Theban Legion]

typically your post is an ad hominem devoid of fact, logic and empirical evidence.

but that is expected.

You know posting the same thing over and over doesn't make you correct only annoying.

The problem here is he IS correct. Now just do the right thing ad add in an actual anti-thesis to his posted thesis. It should be pretty simple. I mean standard logic dictates the more claims you make the more you're bound to slip up somewhere so why don't you guys quit being lazy and get to it!

[AuSable River]

and what kind of say do you have when the lesser of two evils gets into office ???

How is this the liberal's fault?

did you have a say when the CEOs gave themselves bonus' after they were bailed out

How is this the liberal's fault?

did you have a say when the government spent billions fighting in iraq and afghanistan?

How is this the liberal's fault?

did you have a say when the government wasted billions giving money to solar energy firms

billions? lol no

did you have a say as the government runs up over $100 trillion in unfunded debt due to entitlement programs

$100 trillion on entitlement programs alone? Lol no.

Again, if big government is the problem, why it is just the liberal's fault?

unbelievable!

typical nonsense

go back and read my posts, I have criticized republican, democrat, conservative, liberal, et al.

in sum, I am always amused when liberals justify their waste, corruption, and inefficiency by pointing out that republicans and conservative government is equally wasteful.

that isnt an argument honey --- it is an excuse and a bad one at that.

go back and read my posts --- I have consistently attack big government of all strips.

it just so happens that the overwhelming majority of posters are liberals, leftists, progressive --- or whatever you like to call yourself.

[Silent Majority]

what about the other 49% whose candidate didnt win ???

They still have a right to vote.

and what kind of say do you have when the lesser of two evils gets into office ???

A flaw of plurality voting, not of "big government".

did you have a say when the CEOs gave themselves bonus' after they were bailed out

No. Which is exactly my point.

did you have a say when the government spent billions fighting in iraq and afghanistan?

Indirectly

did you have a say when the government wasted billions giving money to solar energy firms

Indirectly. IIRC Investing in green energy was part of Obama's platform.

did you have a say as the government runs up over $100 trillion in unfunded debt due to entitlement programs

Indirectly

in sum, you DONT have much of a SAY .

I have far more say than in places like North Korea, and enough say that people in power have to listen to their constituents in order to stay in power. If a politician did something wildly unpopular I doubt they would be reelected.

--- Nobody is happy with the govt does,

I, like most others, like some of what it does and dislike some of what it does. This is what happens when to live in a society where people have different opinions about things, which is true of any society.

and to make matters worse they have no competition, so you take it with little recourse.

So you want... competing governments?

In contrast, within the free market everytime you step out of the door, YOU HAVE A SAY, and you either are satisfied or the firm doesnt get your return business and possibly goes broke.

We have that power now. If you think liberals are against capitalism you really don't understand what a liberal is.

[The Theban Legion]

Then again corruption at all levels keeps True Communism from existing and the fact is most people are driven not by morals but by greed and that's the only reason the semi-free market capitalist system has worked. What we need is people at the top less easily corrupted by big corporate cronies.

[Blakk Metal]

Then again corruption at all levels keeps True Communism from existing and the fact is most people are driven not by morals but by greed and that's the only reason the semi-free market capitalist system has worked. What we need is people at the top less easily corrupted by big corporate cronies.

Communism = Stateless

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

You mean where the government pays private industry to develop all its weapons and vehicles? And how its actually these businesses that control the government by being those few groups that can produce these supplies, thus making the government simply an employer/consumer of a private industry?--endadial

friggin duh!

and without government as the buyer -- what would happen to these corrupt crony corporations ????

They form cartels. It's what happens when you privatise areas of government, and it's what will happen if you remove government altogether without destroying capitalism first. It's not difficult economics.

Also, I don't think you have ANY idea what a free market is. First, its non-existent and can't exist, as its a theory. its the perfect market that cannot exist, because it requires both the consumer and producer to have perfect knowledge of economic conditions.--endaidal

nobody has perfect knowledge, most especially government politicians and bureaucrats -- so what ???

And the owners of corporations are any wiser?

99% of free market firms fail, so what????

Driving things towards monopolies, hence creating corporate hegemony.

the difference is that capital, resources, and wealth continually move to investors, individuals, consumers, firms, industries, et al that most efficiently use these resources at a given time in history.

Source.

more important, the free market (WHILE NOT PERFECT) has a mechanism to constantly and instantly reallocate resources from less productive uses to more productive uses.

Please, do explain that particular helping of bullshit.

More importantly, it does all this largely by free, competitive and VOLUNTARY MEANS.

Nah, a small clique do things through voluntary means, everyone else is compelled to do so.

in contrast you beloved government is equally unknowing --- yet this is destructive because when it fails and fails and fails and .......

it doesnt go out of business --- it RAISES TAXES and ACQUIRES MORE POWER.

Blah blah blah blah blah ebil government blah blah blah blah.

more importantly, government is a political animal ---not an economic actor --- hence all of its actions are based on politics which is proven in many cases to extremely economically unsustainable and wasteful.

And the alternative to government in a capitalist society is the sole existence of corporations, which would in time become political animals in themselves - or are people randomly going to set up their own utilities and healthcare?

Lastly, government is coercive and that is immoral to take somebody else's money by force (taxation) and give it to your lobbyist buddy so you can get reelected with special interest votes or campaign contributions (bribes)

Bullshit, a large proportion of taxation is used to fund things like public healthcare. here in the UK it is, at any rate, and in the good ol' US of A you actually spend more per capita on healthcare than we , with our universal healthcare, do. I call that a victory for socialism.

In sum, a free market is impossible, and even attempting a free market in the real world, where emotion, information, and human faults come into play, only create a corrupt system.--endial

big time strawman dude.

nobody is advocating anarchy dude.

go back and read my posts.

Ohohoho, I think you are, you're advocating completely doing away with government.