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by Sremski okrug » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:14 pm
by Beiluxia » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:16 pm
AuSable River wrote:Beiluxia wrote:What you seem to fail to realise in this regard is that all of the countries listed above have nationalised, "socialised", government-run healthcare except for the US. They seem to be spending a lot less per person than we are at the moment for healthcare. Many instances seems to contradict your claim that government intervention in healthcare will raise costs.
the best comparison is not nation to nation. That is like apples and oranges.
it is by looking at changes within a single nation and outcomes in the USA have not changed much since the 1960s when government began bankrupting the nation with health care spending run amok that is primarily wasted by
1) bureaucrats and politicians spending money more to get reelected and attract votes than to improve health care and reduce costs.
2) by patients using health care resources in an economically unsustainable manner because they dont pay for these services directly.
in sum, the system is doing everything possible to raise costs without accountability at either end of the exchange.
by Keronians » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:16 pm
Sremski okrug wrote:It's been proven before that a state-run economy can provide for the nations populace and not suffer from corruption. You'll also notice that private enterprise is ridiculously corrupt as well.
by Liriena » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:16 pm
by Keronians » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:17 pm
You-Gi-Owe wrote:Liriena wrote:
a) Free public education for everyone, funded by the state. Teachers get payed by the state the average wage in the private market or more. In the case of poor countries, tighly regulated foreign aid should fund that same public education.
b) Read (a). Change education for healthcare. Doctors get payed by the state the average wage in the private market or more.
c) Read (a). Change public education for food. Food is bought from private producers by the state, then cooked by state workers in state-owned venues and provided to the poor, no questions asked.
d) The state hires construction workers and architects, pays them the average wages they get in the private market or more. State buys the materials for construction. The homeless get the homes that are built, and start paying for them as soon as they get a job.
e) The state can make arrangements with private companies for the latter to hire workers in exchange for certain benefits...or the state can hire some unemployed to work for the state.
All of it, payed for through the taxes of all citizens, who are all entitled to the use of said services. If they don't want to use those services, they can go to the private market, but they still have their duty, as citizens, to pay their taxes to the state to, therefor, ensure the welfare of the nation as a whole.
When you decide to live in society, you are accepting to submitt to certain basic rules. You are accepting the state's authority over you to ensure your lifelong welfare and security.
Basic Thomas Hobbes.
All well and good, up to a point. Imagining a flat percentage tax on all citizens, what would be the likely percentage that they would have to pay? There is a point where people turn to crime or even revolution, when govt. taxes are too oppressive. Just for reference, I think the Bible calls anything over twenty percent, "slavery", but I don't know if that figures in tithing or not.
What do you do if the citizens resist paying for govt. spending? What do you do if the lower classes won't be motivated to improve their lot in life?
by Frisivisia » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:19 pm
Keronians wrote:You-Gi-Owe wrote:All well and good, up to a point. Imagining a flat percentage tax on all citizens, what would be the likely percentage that they would have to pay? There is a point where people turn to crime or even revolution, when govt. taxes are too oppressive. Just for reference, I think the Bible calls anything over twenty percent, "slavery", but I don't know if that figures in tithing or not.
What do you do if the citizens resist paying for govt. spending? What do you do if the lower classes won't be motivated to improve their lot in life?
YGO, what happens if the poor become disenfranchised, and turn to crime, and become stuck in a viscious cycle of poverty?
by Liriena » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:20 pm
You-Gi-Owe wrote:Liriena wrote:
a) Free public education for everyone, funded by the state. Teachers get payed by the state the average wage in the private market or more. In the case of poor countries, tighly regulated foreign aid should fund that same public education.
b) Read (a). Change education for healthcare. Doctors get payed by the state the average wage in the private market or more.
c) Read (a). Change public education for food. Food is bought from private producers by the state, then cooked by state workers in state-owned venues and provided to the poor, no questions asked.
d) The state hires construction workers and architects, pays them the average wages they get in the private market or more. State buys the materials for construction. The homeless get the homes that are built, and start paying for them as soon as they get a job.
e) The state can make arrangements with private companies for the latter to hire workers in exchange for certain benefits...or the state can hire some unemployed to work for the state.
All of it, payed for through the taxes of all citizens, who are all entitled to the use of said services. If they don't want to use those services, they can go to the private market, but they still have their duty, as citizens, to pay their taxes to the state to, therefor, ensure the welfare of the nation as a whole.
When you decide to live in society, you are accepting to submitt to certain basic rules. You are accepting the state's authority over you to ensure your lifelong welfare and security.
Basic Thomas Hobbes.
All well and good, up to a point. Imagining a flat percentage tax on all citizens, what would be the likely percentage that they would have to pay? There is a point where people turn to crime or even revolution, when govt. taxes are too oppressive. Just for reference, I think the Bible calls anything over twenty percent, "slavery", but I don't know if that figures in tithing or not.
What do you do if the citizens resist paying for govt. spending? What do you do if the lower classes won't be motivated to improve their lot in life?
by Galloism » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:21 pm
AuSable River wrote:Liriena wrote:
Oh, now I finally see where you are coming from.
I bet you only started to be such a proud anti-government libertarian when Obama took office.
Actually honey, the movement got started when bush bailed out the banks.
essentially you have offered nothing but labeling people and invective.
similarly, the rest of the statists on this thread have just contributed trollish or inane retorts.
the only statists who tried to debunk my arguments with misinformation and illogical arguments have fled
yet none have refuted with any shred of logical, empirical and factual argument that :
1) government is corrupt
2) the bigger the government the more corrupt
3) the more corrupt, the more damagiing to society
case in point, our $50-100 trillion dollar unfunded liabilities thanks to big govt run amok.
which clueless liberals tried to defend with the ridiculous argument that 'govt cant go bankrupt' ???!!
but if it feels good to believe in a failed ideological system -- then nothing I can say can change that.
like the old saying goes;
if your young and a conservative, you have no heart ---- if your old and liberal, you have no brain.
by The Caldari Union » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:22 pm
by Tyhcoon » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:26 pm
AuSable River wrote:Who knows?
Probably they are just following the indoctrination that they have received from leftwing educators, pop culture, and the main stream media who are all proponents of big government.
If I could deprogram leftists, I would enlighten them to the fact that government is a market for corruption.
Essentially, it is a place where special interests go to get something by coercive means that they couldn't get in a free, voluntary, and competitive society.
For example, the reckless and irresponsible financial institutions that engaged in questionable business practices prior to the 2008 crisis successfully went to Washington to get bailed out by Bush, RINO republicans and virtually every democrat in Congress (including obama).
Not surprisingly, these same banks contributed generously to both obama and bush in their respective elections. Moreover, the these same failed bankers have figured prominently in both the bush and obama cabinets.
Using the 'logic' of the Left -- obama, bush, and democrats in congress were required to divert scarce resources from productive sectors of the economy to bailout the very negligent and reckless firms and individuals who helped cause the crisis or in the very least were clueless on how to mitigate its impact.
They don't really know why --just that the same fools and crooks who caused the crisis must be bailed out AND the politicians and elites in finance told them that a bail out was necessary ??!! How 'surprising' and convenient for these same elitist politicians and bankers.
In reality, the purpose of government isn't to promote sustainable and beneficial economic policy -- it is for self-serving politicians and their corrupt cronies in the public and private sector to 'game' the system to their benefit at the expense of productive individuals and firms in the private sector (who by definition don't need government help).
This is the preamble of ECO 101 for progressives.
In sum, if any liberal/progressive/leftist thinks that government is not corrupt and coercive -- then you cant proceed further and we need to resolve this impasse.
Please ask questions.
Unity under Troy, unity is advancement.
The Unified Democratic Republic of Tyhcoon
by Sremski okrug » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:27 pm
by Chulainan » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:27 pm
The Caldari Union wrote:Any Government is better than sub-human anarchy.
i would rather live in Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia than chaos.
by The Caldari Union » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:28 pm
by AuSable River » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:15 pm
Tyhcoon wrote:AuSable River wrote:Who knows?
Probably they are just following the indoctrination that they have received from leftwing educators, pop culture, and the main stream media who are all proponents of big government.
If I could deprogram leftists, I would enlighten them to the fact that government is a market for corruption.
Essentially, it is a place where special interests go to get something by coercive means that they couldn't get in a free, voluntary, and competitive society.
For example, the reckless and irresponsible financial institutions that engaged in questionable business practices prior to the 2008 crisis successfully went to Washington to get bailed out by Bush, RINO republicans and virtually every democrat in Congress (including obama).
Not surprisingly, these same banks contributed generously to both obama and bush in their respective elections. Moreover, the these same failed bankers have figured prominently in both the bush and obama cabinets.
Using the 'logic' of the Left -- obama, bush, and democrats in congress were required to divert scarce resources from productive sectors of the economy to bailout the very negligent and reckless firms and individuals who helped cause the crisis or in the very least were clueless on how to mitigate its impact.
They don't really know why --just that the same fools and crooks who caused the crisis must be bailed out AND the politicians and elites in finance told them that a bail out was necessary ??!! How 'surprising' and convenient for these same elitist politicians and bankers.
In reality, the purpose of government isn't to promote sustainable and beneficial economic policy -- it is for self-serving politicians and their corrupt cronies in the public and private sector to 'game' the system to their benefit at the expense of productive individuals and firms in the private sector (who by definition don't need government help).
This is the preamble of ECO 101 for progressives.
In sum, if any liberal/progressive/leftist thinks that government is not corrupt and coercive -- then you cant proceed further and we need to resolve this impasse.
Please ask questions.
Would you like an anarchy then?
by The Gadsden Patriots » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:16 pm
AuSable River wrote:I oppose anarchy, both right and left.
by Miss Defied » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:30 pm
by Miss Defied » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:43 pm
AuSable River wrote:essentially you have offered nothing but labeling people and invective.
by AuSable River » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:20 pm
Miss Defied wrote:AuSable River wrote:essentially you have offered nothing but labeling people and invective.
What's this now?
And that's just the first 20 or so pages.
Yeah, you aren't here to pick a fight. Not at all.
But do go on with your enlightenment and tell me moar about how "corrupt, inefficient and wasteful corporations will fail" and "the duopoly of government protections in the form of preferential tax and regulatory regimes bought and paid for in a quid pro quo scheme of campaign contributions" and "facts logic and empirical evidence" and any other catch phrases you lifed off a pamphlet you got at a Ron Paul rally last summer.
by The Gadsden Patriots » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:30 pm
AuSable River wrote:This is ECO101, but only to rational, objective, and independent thinking citizens who are not blinded by bankrupt partisan ideological beliefs.
by Acroticus » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:34 pm
AuSable River wrote:Miss Defied wrote:
What's this now?
And that's just the first 20 or so pages.
Yeah, you aren't here to pick a fight. Not at all.
But do go on with your enlightenment and tell me moar about how "corrupt, inefficient and wasteful corporations will fail" and "the duopoly of government protections in the form of preferential tax and regulatory regimes bought and paid for in a quid pro quo scheme of campaign contributions" and "facts logic and empirical evidence" and any other catch phrases you lifed off a pamphlet you got at a Ron Paul rally last summer.
the empirical data is irrefutable:
the federal government has accumulated tens of trillions is unfunded debt that even progressives acknowledge is a survival level threat to the republic -- even obama recognizes this threat hence he formed the simpson-bowles commission which not surprisingly he has ignored.
do you dispute this fact?
the mechanism by which this debt as accumulated is that politicians have (1) made promises that they cant keep in order to get re-electeed and (2) they have made promises that they can keep that are destructive to a prosperous and free society.
with respect to promise (1) --- politicians have passed economically unsustainable medicare and social security spending programs in a quid pro quo scheme to buy votes.
with respect to promise (2) ---- politicians have passed preferential tax and regulatory policies to their cronies in the public and private sector in a quid pro quo scheme to get campaign dollars in order to get re-elected.
This is ECO101, but only to rational, objective, and independent thinking citizens who are not blinded by bankrupt partisan ideological beliefs.
by Miss Defied » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:36 pm
AuSable River wrote:-snip irrelevant bullshit-
the empirical data is irrefutable:
the federal government has accumulated tens of trillions is unfunded debt that even progressives acknowledge is a survival level threat to the republic -- even obama recognizes this threat hence he formed the simpson-bowles commission which not surprisingly he has ignored.
do you dispute this fact?
Miss Defied wrote:AuSable River wrote:
Actually honey, the movement got started when bush bailed out the banks.
Actually snookums, the movement got started way before that. Just because you are so late to the party doesn't mean it hasn't been going on for quite some time now. You think you are some kind of oracle who had broken through the veil to discover the depraved corruption of the federal government? Please, it's no fucking secret. it hasn't been. Ever. So you can let go of the delusion that only you see the truth. The are plently of people who see it even clearer than you do.
The reason you are having such a hard time here is that you have no desire whatsoever to actually discuss solutions. The entire point of this thread has been to bash "leftists" and "liberals" which you laughably and ignorantly assume to be the same thing.
by Yuktova » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:46 pm
AuSable River wrote:Yuktova wrote:Really? There's simple technical solutions to all of this. I'm thinking that those untrained in technology, and science (mainly conservatives) really don't know what to do.
1.The poor can get public education if they wish, and there's also Khan Academy. http://www.khanacademy.org/
2. Proper medical care could be provided by a mobile hospital, have you heard of the train that gives out medicine to the poor in South Africa?
3. We can educate people about proper diets, like we do today.
4. We can build sophisticated apartment buildings, like these for those who want it. Individual housing is much a "bitch" anyway, it uses too many resources, and is rather inefficient. Proper social apartments are much better.
5. We increase the incentive to do a "non dignified" job. For example, before we can make robots which can mine the mines, we would instill and promote people become miners, give them good pay, and most importantly, lower the working hours tremendously. That, alone, increases incentive to become a miner.
1. Khan academy is private and free --- good answer
2. charitable organizations can do this effectively without the tremendous overhead of paying for a government middle man.
3. public school lunches are among the worse ---- french fries everyday, pizza, chicken nuggets (heavily breaded), sugar drinks, et al.
moreover, no self-respecting kid buys or eats the vegetables -- they buy the chips.
4. you wouldnt have to implement this plan, if govt didnt waste trillions on infrastructure that subsidizes rich people living in rural areas and commuting to cities. Indeed, the sad fact of this boondoggle is that politicians justify mass transit and interstate roads because they claim they will reduce congestion --- yet nobody rides mass transit, it almost always goes broke.
5. good luck paying $500 a month electricity bills due to the cost of artificially higher govt mandated wages.
by Yuktova » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:51 pm
AuSable River wrote:Miss Defied wrote:
What's this now?
And that's just the first 20 or so pages.
Yeah, you aren't here to pick a fight. Not at all.
But do go on with your enlightenment and tell me moar about how "corrupt, inefficient and wasteful corporations will fail" and "the duopoly of government protections in the form of preferential tax and regulatory regimes bought and paid for in a quid pro quo scheme of campaign contributions" and "facts logic and empirical evidence" and any other catch phrases you lifed off a pamphlet you got at a Ron Paul rally last summer.
the empirical data is irrefutable:
the federal government has accumulated tens of trillions is unfunded debt that even progressives acknowledge is a survival level threat to the republic -- even obama recognizes this threat hence he formed the simpson-bowles commission which not surprisingly he has ignored.
do you dispute this fact?
the mechanism by which this debt as accumulated is that politicians have (1) made promises that they cant keep in order to get re-electeed and (2) they have made promises that they can keep that are destructive to a prosperous and free society.
with respect to promise (1) --- politicians have passed economically unsustainable medicare and social security spending programs in a quid pro quo scheme to buy votes.
with respect to promise (2) ---- politicians have passed preferential tax and regulatory policies to their cronies in the public and private sector in a quid pro quo scheme to get campaign dollars in order to get re-elected.
This is ECO101, but only to rational, objective, and independent thinking citizens who are not blinded by bankrupt partisan ideological beliefs.
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