Govt is corrupt, so why do liberals want bigger govt !?!?

[Bottle]

I'd just like to make government large enough that it can't fit up my vagina, thanks.

[Priory Academy USSR]

The reason government is 'a market for corruption' while the private sector is perfect is because in the private sector, corruption is called a pay rise.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Communism 101: In a communist society, there is no government. Period. Stalin and the USSR were not communist. They were either state capitalist, fascist or socialist depending from where you look at them.

communism is a joke anyway

nobody is going to forego personal gain for some freeloader.

it defies human nature

Has anyone else noticed AuSable's arguments getting exponentially crappier throughout this thread?

[Priory Academy USSR]

communism is a joke anyway

nobody is going to forego personal gain for some freeloader.

it defies human nature

Has anyone else noticed AuSable's arguments getting exponentially crappier throughout this thread?

His grammar seems to be failing too. Obviously 'left wing educators' have been getting to him.

[Cameroi]

government is only corrupt, because corporate control of government corrupts it. no one wants government bigger just for the sake of it being bigger. what liberals, or this liberal anyway, wants, is for government to not get away with being useless to ordinary and low income people and the natural environment on which all life depends.

[Liriena]

YOU DISGUST US ALL

I am leaning towards agreeing with El Pescado Frio, because life isn't meant to be good. So, he doesn't disgust me.

Well, El Pescado Frio's cynicism disgusts me, and the nihilism that "life isn't meant to be good" oozes offends me.

[Wirbel]

I am leaning towards agreeing with El Pescado Frio, because life isn't meant to be good. So, he doesn't disgust me.

Well, El Pescado Frio's cynicism disgusts me, and the nihilism that "life isn't meant to be good" oozes offends me.

Are you an Atheist?

[AuSable River]

c)okay, I am calling you out ---- provide your source that government succeeds competing against free market enterprises on a level playing field without plundering the tax payer or preferential monopolistic protections

Why do you want the government to compete in a level playing field? That's why it's the government.

Because corrupt politicians and their cronies in the private and public sector give themselves preferential tax and regulatory policies at the expense of citizens who are not politically connected.

moreover, transferring societal resources from productive, sustainable, free, and competitive private entities to inefficient, unsustainable, coercive and monopolistic political entities ........


.......leads to societal collapse.

[Priory Academy USSR]

Why do you want the government to compete in a level playing field? That's why it's the government.

Because corrupt politicians and their cronies in the private and public sector give themselves preferential tax and regulatory policies at the expense of citizens who are not politically connected.

Unlike business people who always pay all of their taxes. *nods*

[Frisivisia]

The reason the government is corrupt is because of the private sector. The private sector is corrupt because it corrupts the public sector.

[The UK in Exile]

Because corrupt politicians and their cronies in the private and public sector give themselves preferential tax and regulatory policies at the expense of citizens who are not politically connected.

Unlike business people who always pay all of their taxes. *nods*

in AuSables world taxes are evil, businesses have every right not to pay for the government that they require to provide the legal structure in which they operate.

[AuSable River]

Allow me to explain what I would rather entrust to the Free Market, and what I would rather entrust to the State (provided the State's anti-corruption systems are efficient to deal with individual cases of corruption in the system).

Education? State.
Healthcare? State.
Transport? State.
Water supply? State.
Energy supply? State.
Basic housing, food, clothing and other such products for people utterly incapable of purchasing by themselves, and only provided temporarily until said people begin to prosper? State (BTW: the key word is "basic", basic as in "generic" and rather low-quality. For anything better, work is the solution)

Everything else? Free Market! Yay!

If I remember anything else, I'll let you know.

government management of these industries fails because you have bureaucrats and politicians managing a system in which they dont use their own money, they dont suffer the consequences of bad decisions, they represent a monopoly, when a problem is not solved they generally require more money, and they are frequently bribed by the very industry managers that they are supposed to oversee.

the results of government management are known to all and any who have waited in line at any government office. for example, try registering a complaint with a government official and see what happens.


For laughs, Please name a government agency or bureau that solved the problem they were created to address and close up shop a success.

[The UK in Exile]

Allow me to explain what I would rather entrust to the Free Market, and what I would rather entrust to the State (provided the State's anti-corruption systems are efficient to deal with individual cases of corruption in the system).

Education? State.
Healthcare? State.
Transport? State.
Water supply? State.
Energy supply? State.
Basic housing, food, clothing and other such products for people utterly incapable of purchasing by themselves, and only provided temporarily until said people begin to prosper? State (BTW: the key word is "basic", basic as in "generic" and rather low-quality. For anything better, work is the solution)

Everything else? Free Market! Yay!

If I remember anything else, I'll let you know.

government management of these industries fails because you have bureaucrats and politicians managing a system in which they dont use their own money, they dont suffer the consequences of bad decisions, they represent a monopoly, when a problem is not solved they generally require more money, and they are frequently bribed by the very industry managers that they are supposed to oversee.

the results of government management are known to all and any who have waited in line at any government office. for example, try registering a complaint with a government official and see what happens.


For laughs, Please name a government agency or bureau that solved the problem they were created to address and close up shop a success.

Freedmen's Bureau

[Frans]

I'm a Moderate so I do believe our government shouldn't be made big or small - just medium

At least Liberals have good reasons, they want a big government to support people and help then fight things such as poverty. Sadly Welfare is ineffective yet Private Charity isn't reliable. Perhaps the government should cut welfare and help private charities...

[Priory Academy USSR]

Allow me to explain what I would rather entrust to the Free Market, and what I would rather entrust to the State (provided the State's anti-corruption systems are efficient to deal with individual cases of corruption in the system).

Education? State.
Healthcare? State.
Transport? State.
Water supply? State.
Energy supply? State.
Basic housing, food, clothing and other such products for people utterly incapable of purchasing by themselves, and only provided temporarily until said people begin to prosper? State (BTW: the key word is "basic", basic as in "generic" and rather low-quality. For anything better, work is the solution)

Everything else? Free Market! Yay!

If I remember anything else, I'll let you know.

government management of these industries fails because you have bureaucrats and politicians managing a system in which they dont use their own money, they dont suffer the consequences of bad decisions, they represent a monopoly, when a problem is not solved they generally require more money, and they are frequently bribed by the very industry managers that they are supposed to oversee.

the results of government management are known to all and any who have waited in line at any government office. for example, try registering a complaint with a government official and see what happens.


For laughs, Please name a government agency or bureau that solved the problem they were created to address and close up shop a success.

It appears the state has failed in educating you about punctuation and grammar. Also, have you ever tried complaining to a private company about af failed product? http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/series/bachelor-and-brignall-consumer-champions. Just a few of the many private sectors failures.

Oh, and Ministry of Information. Came along, gave out propaganda, and inspired people to win both World Wars. Then closed up again when no longer needed.

[AuSable River]

The solution is to allow the contributors to benefit and the ones who do not wish to contribute to miss out.

That wouldn't work. The wealthy don't use many public services, so they wouldn't have much to lose by not contributing, but those public services couldn't function without the wealthy.

In addition many of the people who do use public services are poor, and oftentimes don't pay taxes, because they cannot afford to.

we wouldnt need as much charity if a society was created to nurture and incentivise hard work rather than punish it.

indeed, since the Left gained control of the regulatory regime and purse strings in 2006 -- poverty is at near record levels -- despite the fact that welfare, food stamps, unemployment ins, et al have expanded significantly.

what statists dont understand is that if you subsidize unemployment, you get more of it --- and if you tax productive behaviors, you get less of it.

but more importantly, if you surrender your freedoms and entrust self-serving politicians to force egalitarian outcomes --- all you do is empower these politicians and their cronies to loot the national cookie jar with little long term improvement in income differences or poverty.

indeed, these power brokers prefer that the problem is not solved so they can justify increased power for themselves.

when has a polltician ever declined more tax payer plunder when poverty increases precisely because of their policies of rewarding unemployment ?

[Ridicularia]

I'd just like to make government large enough that it can't fit up my vagina, thanks.

I lol'ed. +10

For laughs, Please name a government agency or bureau that solved the problem they were created to address and close up shop a success.

You'll probably find a few in here.
My personal favorite is the Committee on Public Information.

[Priory Academy USSR]

For laughs, Please name a government agency or bureau that solved the problem they were created to address and close up shop a success.

I'd also like to add CAP, a European agency that was too successful.

[AuSable River]

government is a self-serving scheme that benefits politicians, bureaucrats, and their cronies in the private and public sector in a quid pro quo scheme of preferential tax and regulatory policy in exchange for special interest votes and campaign contributions.

None of those are inherent to any government, it is possible for a government to exist without corruption, the influence of special interest groups can be limited, and while politicians often rely on campaign contributions from various groups, it is the people who decide if they stay in office or not, and I think people are more intelligent than you give them credit.

hence the large number of lobbyists in washington.

do you seriously think they are lobbying washington with hundreds of billions of dollars in order to help society ????!!!!

I imagine many of them believe they are, and some of them do legitimately advocate for causes that benefit society although those lobbyists don't tend to be as well funded.

naive = statist on the outside.

corrupt = statist on the inside

poor = statist on the outside

privledged = statist on the inside.

You yourself have said that you are not an anarchist, which by definition means you are a statist.

you dont understand the main point I am making -- namely that when society creates a system in which politicians decide where societal wealth is distributed rarely does this turn out positive:

1) these politicians are rational self-serving actors (like all societal actors), hence they always act in their own self-interest, not societies.

2) however, these self-serving actors are not using their own money , hence they never exercise the due diligence in spending it that those that earn money would exercise when investing their own money.

3) these actors dont directly suffer the consequences for mismanagement -- indeed, this is frequently an excuse for more plunder.

4) they can be bought by lobbyists who cannot achieve their goals in a free society, hence they use government to get what they couldnt get by voluntary means.

most importantly, when money and scarce resources are distributed based on which politician you know and for political motives --- society will eventually collapse.

we are headed there within our lifetime.

[Occupied Deutschland]

I'd just like to make government large enough that it can't fit up my vagina, thanks.

I lol'ed. +10

For laughs, Please name a government agency or bureau that solved the problem they were created to address and close up shop a success.

You'll probably find a few in here.
My personal favorite is the Committee on Public Information.

I'm seeing a lot of 'replaced' and 'renamed' in that list.

The one I do see that WAS abolished is the 'Board of tea appeals' which apparently was so vital it could not fall under the FDA when we created THAT agency until we'd had the FDA for 90 years.
Hurray for the Department of Redundancy Department!

[United Marxist Nations]

I see what AuSable is saying, but I think he is attacking the wrong actor in the association of gov't corruption.

[Ridicularia]

I'm seeing a lot of 'replaced' and 'renamed' in that list.

The one I do see that WAS abolished is the 'Board of tea appeals' which apparently was so vital it could not fall under the FDA when we created THAT agency until we'd had the FDA for 90 years.
Hurray for the Department of Redundancy Department!

That's because tea is the most sacred and important of American traditions.

Also, yeah, there's a lot that have been replaced by others. In combining with others, some of their mandates were ended. A few just ended outright, though.

[United Marxist Nations]

Well, El Pescado Frio's cynicism disgusts me, and the nihilism that "life isn't meant to be good" oozes offends me.

Are you an Atheist?

What would it matter if he was?

[AuSable River]

Poor people can contribute. Some of them are only poor because they don't wish to contribute.

First: Of course, I must ask for a source.

Second: That's pretty fucking illogical, especially in your ideal world with no welfare.

you dont seem to understand the obvious fact that if you pay someone not to work --- you will have more people not working.

when you legislate minimum wage laws --- you will see low wage workers on the margins lose their jobs.

when you tax productive firms and individuals --- you will see capital flight and declining growth and standards of living.


essentially, like all statists, you have put emotions and your egalitarian goals ahead of logic, rational thinking and economic reality.

there is a path to greater equality of outcome --- but entrusting a group of ambitious and self-serving politicians will not get you there.

Indeed, there are more lobbyists in washington then ever before spending more money then ever before, and corporate interests closely tied to washington are making more money then ever before --- all while poverty levels are approaching record levels not seen since the 1960's

[Frisivisia]

First: Of course, I must ask for a source.

Second: That's pretty fucking illogical, especially in your ideal world with no welfare.

you dont seem to understand the obvious fact that if you pay someone not to work --- you will have more people not working.

when you legislate minimum wage laws --- you will see low wage workers on the margins lose their jobs.

when you tax productive firms and individuals --- you will see capital flight and declining growth and standards of living.


essentially, like all statists, you have put emotions and your egalitarian goals ahead of logic, rational thinking and economic reality.

there is a path to greater equality of outcome --- but entrusting a group of ambitious and self-serving politicians will not get you there.

Indeed, there are more lobbyists in washington then ever before spending more money then ever before, and corporate interests closely tied to washington are making more money then ever before --- all while poverty levels are approaching record levels not seen since the 1960's

I like your theory that unemployed people are lazy. It's funny, because they aren't.