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Govt is corrupt, so why do liberals want bigger govt !?!?

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The UK in Exile
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Posts: 12023
Founded: Jul 27, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby The UK in Exile » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:43 pm

AuSable River wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:Threaten them. Not illegal, no government.

No government, no prosecution.

No government, no prisons.


Well of course, because what you advocate is silly and unrealistic.



I agree, this is a one sided debate, with you not addressing any points. The government saved GM, so useless point there.


your wasting my time --- this is my last response to your ridiculous strawman arguments.

go back and find the post where I advocate zero government and get back with me.


yet according to your own post government is always coercive and corrupt.

so I guess the question is, why are you pro corruption?
"We fought for the public good and would have enfranchised the people and secured the welfare of the whole groaning creation, if the nation had not more delighted in servitude than in freedom"

"My actions are as noble as my thoughts, That never relish’d of a base descent.I came unto your court for honour’s cause, And not to be a rebel to her state; And he that otherwise accounts of me, This sword shall prove he’s honour’s enemy."

"Wählte Ungnade, wo Gehorsam nicht Ehre brachte."
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DEFCON 1 - at war "go to red alert!" "are you absolutely sure sir? it does mean changing the lightbulb."

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Mavorpen
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Founded: Dec 20, 2011
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Postby Mavorpen » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:44 pm

AuSable River wrote:
your wasting my time --- this is my last response to your ridiculous strawman arguments.

go back and find the post where I advocate zero government and get back with me.


My posts have highlighted the importance of government. There is no straw man. But it's nice you're admitting the government is important, thus a larger government is better.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Liriena
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Posts: 57155
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:44 pm

Wirbel wrote:
Liriena wrote:OP, why do you hate the children, the elderly, the poor, the hungry, the sick and the unemployed?

That's what the oh-so-despicable big government takes care off: those who are one way or the other incapable of participating in the Market to receive basic services which are recognized by most of the civilized world as human rights.


BTW: I'm not pro-big government, I'm fucking pro-big state. Learn the difference!


Children- Should be taken care of by their parents.
Elderly- Should have saved money for retirement (the government just steals it through MediCare and gives them almost nothing back).
Poor- Who could find jobs if the government didn't regulate the economy.
Unemployed- Refer to poor.


Your response is all fine and dandy...but it ignores one mayor problem:

A) The parents of many children are poor or their salaries are too low. Or there are just no parents.
B) I'll ignore the part between brackets and just respond to the first part: Sometimes people just CAN'T save money for retirement. For example, when your employers pay you barely enough to get buy, and have no labor laws that tells them to maybe do something more than paying the minimum.
C) Please explain to me why, despite record profits in this last period, companies still don't hire works. Sorry, my friend, but sometimes THERE JUST AREN'T ANY JOBS.
D) Look to (C)
be gay do crime


I am:
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Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
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For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
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AuSable River
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Founded: Jul 16, 2012
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Postby AuSable River » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:46 pm

Miss Defied wrote:
AuSable River wrote:source ??!!!

what is the source for 2+2 = 4 ???

Well that was proven a long time ago. Unlike your outlandish claims. Remember Austrian theory =/= fact

AuSable River wrote:indeed, are you aware that thousands, if not millions of free market firms fail yearly ?

Millions reall?. I mean thousands, I'll buy that. But millions? No. I'm beginning to suspect that you fail to understand that the words you use have actual meanings. And that, especialy with numbers, there are actual values that correlate to them.

AuSable River wrote:again for the 20th time, explain the process whereby a firm can crush competition without satisfying consumer preferences.

Apple
AuSable River wrote:until you answer this challenge --- dont bother with these inane strawman diversions.

Investment in a thesaurus may spruce up your rhetoric.

Edit: tags and typos


yes apple has a significant amount of market share.

and yes, everyone in the apple store is being screwed by the Ipad and Ipod.

and yes, everyone who bought these devices was coerced against their willl

and yes, apple is going to take over the world and deny its enemies food, water, and legal representation.


do you see how ridiculous your argument is ?

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Liriena
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Posts: 57155
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:48 pm

Wirbel wrote:Contradiction

If gov't owns everything- No Choice But To Use Their Services
If corporation gobbles up everyone else- No Choice But To Use Their Services


Yeah...nope.

I was thinking more about...you know...Mixed Market Economy. Not everything is black and white, despite what anti-left indoctrination during the Cold War might have made you believe. ;)
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
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Wirbel
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Founded: Jan 02, 2012
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Postby Wirbel » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:48 pm

AuSable River wrote:
Miss Defied wrote:Well that was proven a long time ago. Unlike your outlandish claims. Remember Austrian theory =/= fact


Millions reall?. I mean thousands, I'll buy that. But millions? No. I'm beginning to suspect that you fail to understand that the words you use have actual meanings. And that, especialy with numbers, there are actual values that correlate to them.


Apple

Investment in a thesaurus may spruce up your rhetoric.

Edit: tags and typos


yes apple has a significant amount of market share.

and yes, everyone in the apple store is being screwed by the Ipad and Ipod.

and yes, everyone who bought these devices was coerced against their willl

and yes, apple is going to take over the world and deny its enemies food, water, and legal representation.


do you see how ridiculous your argument is ?


Don't we all love these technologies? If the gov't gets to big, we won't have them.
Costa Fiero wrote:
Soviet Russia Republic wrote:Yes, they could. They'll likely not get seven years.


Nah, they'll probably end up in one of the gulags rehabilitation facilities in Siberia.

Mikoyan-Guryevich wrote:Don't RP that your naval strike force has just launched 1000 fighter jets, this is just pure shit.
Preferred Type of Gov't:
Insane Evil Fascist Tyranny

Religion:
Science
I roleplay Steampunk and Dieselpunk.

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Simon Cowell of the RR
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Posts: 2038
Founded: May 18, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Simon Cowell of the RR » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:48 pm

SaintB wrote:
Simon Cowell of the RR wrote:I love how Americans say government is corrupt. Go to any country not in Western Europe and see what happens. Ever been to India? In the course of obtaining the paperwork to own a food stand, the average person has to give 10 bribes.

Western Corruption is more efficient because it takes place in the form of siphoning off people's tax money.

Fascinating. You do realize America has some of the lowest taxes in the first world?
Yes, I might be trolling. No, not like the guy who created the thread about towel heads.
I troll by making even the most outlandish opinions sound reasonable. The question is, am I doing that here?

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Mavorpen
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Founded: Dec 20, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Mavorpen » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:49 pm

Wirbel wrote:Don't we all love these technologies? If the gov't gets to big, we won't have them.


Source?
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Samuraikoku
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Founded: May 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Samuraikoku » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:49 pm

AuSable River wrote:yes apple has a significant amount of market share.

and yes, everyone in the apple store is being screwed by the Ipad and Ipod.

and yes, everyone who bought these devices was coerced against their willl

and yes, apple is going to take over the world and deny its enemies food, water, and legal representation.


do you see how ridiculous your argument is ?


Apple doesn't let me use iTunes to manufacture nuclear weapons.

FASCISTS!

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Forster Keys
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Posts: 19584
Founded: Mar 08, 2010
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Postby Forster Keys » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:49 pm

AuSable River wrote:
Miss Defied wrote:Well that was proven a long time ago. Unlike your outlandish claims. Remember Austrian theory =/= fact


Millions reall?. I mean thousands, I'll buy that. But millions? No. I'm beginning to suspect that you fail to understand that the words you use have actual meanings. And that, especialy with numbers, there are actual values that correlate to them.


Apple

Investment in a thesaurus may spruce up your rhetoric.

Edit: tags and typos


yes apple has a significant amount of market share.

and yes, everyone in the apple store is being screwed by the Ipad and Ipod.

and yes, everyone who bought these devices was coerced against their willl

and yes, apple is going to take over the world and deny its enemies food, water, and legal representation.


do you see how ridiculous your argument is ?


You cherry pick one answer to one particular question, ignoring the rest of response, and then use to it to go on a blind, baseless barely related rant. Then you call the argument of the person you quoted ridiculous? Class.
The blue sky above beckons us to take our freedom, to paint our path across its vastness. Across a million blades of grass, through the roars of our elation and a thousand thundering hooves, we begin our reply.

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Forster Keys
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Founded: Mar 08, 2010
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Postby Forster Keys » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:50 pm

Mavorpen wrote:
Wirbel wrote:Don't we all love these technologies? If the gov't gets to big, we won't have them.


Source?


No important technology has ever been created or produced by the government!
The blue sky above beckons us to take our freedom, to paint our path across its vastness. Across a million blades of grass, through the roars of our elation and a thousand thundering hooves, we begin our reply.

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Liriena
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Posts: 57155
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:51 pm

Wirbel wrote:
AuSable River wrote:
yes apple has a significant amount of market share.

and yes, everyone in the apple store is being screwed by the Ipad and Ipod.

and yes, everyone who bought these devices was coerced against their willl

and yes, apple is going to take over the world and deny its enemies food, water, and legal representation.


do you see how ridiculous your argument is ?

Don't we all love these technologies? If the gov't gets to big, we won't have them.


Dare I ask? Why, yes, I do!

SOURCE?
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

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Wirbel
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Founded: Jan 02, 2012
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Postby Wirbel » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:51 pm

You know my answer to those questions- and that's why you disagree with me.
Costa Fiero wrote:
Soviet Russia Republic wrote:Yes, they could. They'll likely not get seven years.


Nah, they'll probably end up in one of the gulags rehabilitation facilities in Siberia.

Mikoyan-Guryevich wrote:Don't RP that your naval strike force has just launched 1000 fighter jets, this is just pure shit.
Preferred Type of Gov't:
Insane Evil Fascist Tyranny

Religion:
Science
I roleplay Steampunk and Dieselpunk.

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Wirbel
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Founded: Jan 02, 2012
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Postby Wirbel » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:51 pm

Liriena wrote:
Wirbel wrote:

Don't we all love these technologies? If the gov't gets to big, we won't have them.


Dare I ask? Why, yes, I do!

SOURCE?


I can't source this. But just see what happens if you destroy the private sector... You'll just have to see.
Costa Fiero wrote:
Soviet Russia Republic wrote:Yes, they could. They'll likely not get seven years.


Nah, they'll probably end up in one of the gulags rehabilitation facilities in Siberia.

Mikoyan-Guryevich wrote:Don't RP that your naval strike force has just launched 1000 fighter jets, this is just pure shit.
Preferred Type of Gov't:
Insane Evil Fascist Tyranny

Religion:
Science
I roleplay Steampunk and Dieselpunk.

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Mavorpen
Khan of Spam
 
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Founded: Dec 20, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Mavorpen » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:52 pm

Wirbel wrote:You know my answer to those questions- and that's why you disagree with me.


Why yes, I know your answer will be, "No, I don't have a source!" That's a good reason to disagree.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Samuraikoku
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Founded: May 13, 2011
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Postby Samuraikoku » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:52 pm

Forster Keys wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:
Source?


No important technology has ever been created or produced by the government!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIAC

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Mavorpen
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Posts: 63266
Founded: Dec 20, 2011
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Postby Mavorpen » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:52 pm

Wirbel wrote:
Liriena wrote:
Dare I ask? Why, yes, I do!

SOURCE?


I can't source this. But just see what happens if you destroy the private sector... You'll just have to see.


So, no source. In other words, your post was a joke.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Miss Defied
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Posts: 2258
Founded: Mar 21, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Miss Defied » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:52 pm

AuSable River wrote:
Miss Defied wrote:Well that was proven a long time ago. Unlike your outlandish claims. Remember Austrian theory =/= fact


Millions reall?. I mean thousands, I'll buy that. But millions? No. I'm beginning to suspect that you fail to understand that the words you use have actual meanings. And that, especialy with numbers, there are actual values that correlate to them.


Apple

Investment in a thesaurus may spruce up your rhetoric.

Edit: tags and typos


yes apple has a significant amount of market share.

and yes, everyone in the apple store is being screwed by the Ipad and Ipod.

and yes, everyone who bought these devices was coerced against their willl

and yes, apple is going to take over the world and deny its enemies food, water, and legal representation.


do you see how ridiculous your argument is ?

No I don't because I wasn't arguing that Apple was going to take over the world.
"You know you're like the A-bomb. Everybody's laughing, having a good time. Then you show up -BOOM- everything's dead." - Master Shake

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AuSable River
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Founded: Jul 16, 2012
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Postby AuSable River » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:53 pm

Liriena wrote:
Wirbel wrote:
Children- Should be taken care of by their parents.
Elderly- Should have saved money for retirement (the government just steals it through MediCare and gives them almost nothing back).
Poor- Who could find jobs if the government didn't regulate the economy.
Unemployed- Refer to poor.


Your response is all fine and dandy...but it ignores one mayor problem:

A) The parents of many children are poor or their salaries are too low. Or there are just no parents.
B) I'll ignore the part between brackets and just respond to the first part: Sometimes people just CAN'T save money for retirement. For example, when your employers pay you barely enough to get buy, and have no labor laws that tells them to maybe do something more than paying the minimum.
C) Please explain to me why, despite record profits in this last period, companies still don't hire works. Sorry, my friend, but sometimes THERE JUST AREN'T ANY JOBS.
D) Look to (C)



Your response is fine and dandy -- but it ignores one mayor (sic) problem:


1) government operatives and their cronies gain power by claiming to address a need or acting as an advocate for the poor.

2) government operative use this need as an excuse to gain power and control over other people's wealth against their will

3) government uses this power to dole out crumbs to the very people that are suffering, while the bulk of favors and wealth go to their special interests and campaign contributors.

4) predictably the problem doesnt improve, hence government requires MORE power and money to 'solve' it.

5) the poor are worse off then before, society is more unequal, and politicians and their cronies richer.


Indeed, under obama lobbyists have skyrocketed, banks are making record profits, and not surprisingly poverty and permanent unemployment is at record levels.

User avatar
Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57155
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:53 pm

Wirbel wrote:
Liriena wrote:
Dare I ask? Why, yes, I do!

SOURCE?


I can't source this. But just see what happens if you destroy the private sector... You'll just have to see.


:rofl:

Please, tell me where you got your magic ball to gaze into such a dreadful future!
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

User avatar
Forster Keys
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19584
Founded: Mar 08, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Forster Keys » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:54 pm

Samuraikoku wrote:
Forster Keys wrote:
No important technology has ever been created or produced by the government!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIAC


Wikipedia is funded by the State. Your argument is invalided evil leftist.
The blue sky above beckons us to take our freedom, to paint our path across its vastness. Across a million blades of grass, through the roars of our elation and a thousand thundering hooves, we begin our reply.

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AuSable River
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Posts: 1038
Founded: Jul 16, 2012
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Postby AuSable River » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:55 pm

Miss Defied wrote:
AuSable River wrote:
yes apple has a significant amount of market share.

and yes, everyone in the apple store is being screwed by the Ipad and Ipod.

and yes, everyone who bought these devices was coerced against their willl

and yes, apple is going to take over the world and deny its enemies food, water, and legal representation.


do you see how ridiculous your argument is ?

No I don't because I wasn't arguing that Apple was going to take over the world.


my point was that apple was very effectively satisfying consumer preferences -- thats why they have market share.

but rest assured that if someone came up with a better 'mouse trap' or if apple slacked off for a second --- the free market would ruin them.

in contrast, the more government fails -- the more taxes it requires and the richer the politicians and their cronies get.


I'll take limited govt. and the free market thank you.

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Wirbel
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Posts: 1613
Founded: Jan 02, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Wirbel » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:55 pm

Mavorpen wrote:
Wirbel wrote:You know my answer to those questions- and that's why you disagree with me.


Why yes, I know your answer will be, "No, I don't have a source!" That's a good reason to disagree.


The Soviet government once got to big. It had the power to provide everything to it's citizens. But it used that power to take it all away.
Costa Fiero wrote:
Soviet Russia Republic wrote:Yes, they could. They'll likely not get seven years.


Nah, they'll probably end up in one of the gulags rehabilitation facilities in Siberia.

Mikoyan-Guryevich wrote:Don't RP that your naval strike force has just launched 1000 fighter jets, this is just pure shit.
Preferred Type of Gov't:
Insane Evil Fascist Tyranny

Religion:
Science
I roleplay Steampunk and Dieselpunk.

User avatar
Mavorpen
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 63266
Founded: Dec 20, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Mavorpen » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:56 pm

AuSable River wrote:
Your response is fine and dandy -- but it ignores one mayor (sic) problem:


1) government operatives and their cronies gain power by claiming to address a need or acting as an advocate for the poor.

And they do.
AuSable River wrote:2) government operative use this need as an excuse to gain power and control over other people's wealth against their will

Lolololololol Social Contract.
AuSable River wrote:3) government uses this power to dole out crumbs to the very people that are suffering, while the bulk of favors and wealth go to their special interests and campaign contributors.

Which is due to the free market producing greedy people.
AuSable River wrote:4) predictably the problem doesnt improve, hence government requires MORE power and money to 'solve' it.

Well yes, that's what taxes are for.
AuSable River wrote:5) the poor are worse off then before, society is more unequal, and politicians and their cronies richer.

All due to capitalism.

AuSable River wrote:Indeed, under obama lobbyists have skyrocketed, banks are making record profits, and not surprisingly poverty and permanent unemployment is at record levels.


Yes, under Obama. He's not the cause. Try again,
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Wirbel
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Posts: 1613
Founded: Jan 02, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Wirbel » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:56 pm

Forster Keys wrote:


Wikipedia is funded by the State. Your argument is invalided evil leftist.


Yes, yes. It floats on donations from the people.
Costa Fiero wrote:
Soviet Russia Republic wrote:Yes, they could. They'll likely not get seven years.


Nah, they'll probably end up in one of the gulags rehabilitation facilities in Siberia.

Mikoyan-Guryevich wrote:Don't RP that your naval strike force has just launched 1000 fighter jets, this is just pure shit.
Preferred Type of Gov't:
Insane Evil Fascist Tyranny

Religion:
Science
I roleplay Steampunk and Dieselpunk.

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