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Govt is corrupt, so why do liberals want bigger govt !?!?

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Wirbel
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Postby Wirbel » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:02 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
AuSable River wrote:
I see that you agree that government is corrupt --- now how is it that the free market is corrupt?

Essentially I am going to debunk you since you dont know what the free market is based on your ignorant statement.

Capitalist systems are very corrupt; the large enterprises fund political campaigns and in return the politicians do whatever the company says.


But Marxist systems are also corrupt: The Soviet Union turned from Marxist to Stalinist within a one to two decades.
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Lancaster of Wessex
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Postby Lancaster of Wessex » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:02 pm

Okay, government is corrupt. You don't want to see it bigger.

So. What's your plan? To reduce it? By how much? How will you know when it's just big enough, and still not too big, or then too small?

And if government is too big and corrupt, why not massively curtail the biggest of departments - the Armed Forces?

Slash their budget, and the size of the army, and surely that'd cut down on massive waste and abuse?

EDIT: Op, you should change the title of this piece: HUMANITY is corrupt.

Period.
Last edited by Lancaster of Wessex on Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Transhuman Proteus
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Postby Transhuman Proteus » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:03 pm

AuSable River wrote:
Transhuman Proteus wrote:I am a "liberal". I was unaware I wanted a "bigger govt". Thank you for educating me.



I do like how you make try and effort to exclude conservatives so as to not have your argument, such as it is, fall to pieces (it doesn't work).



I include anyone in government -- government is a market for corruption, hence if someone labels themselves liberal, conservative, republican, democrat, et al

Are you happy now ?

can we proceed? since it is apparent that we all agree that government is corrupt irrespective of whether it is conservative or liberal.


I wouldn't say a government is corrupt without evidence of corruption (as in defined corruption - not "OMG the Government doesn't support my questionable thinking on taxes/morals/relgion/etc, it is CORRUPT!")

How exactly does making it smaller (in what sense?) deal with "corruption"?
Last edited by Transhuman Proteus on Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Death Metal
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Postby Death Metal » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:03 pm

AuSable River wrote:now how is it that the free market is corrupt?


Well...
Last edited by Death Metal on Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:04 pm

Transhuman Proteus wrote:
AuSable River wrote:

Do you have a logical, factual and empirically supported argument ?

because this last one is totally devoid of any intelligent or substantive rebut.


You don't seem to have provided much evidence of corruption...

AuSable River wrote:
If you actually read my post and understood it, it most definitely implies that any government actor is inherently corrupt irrespective of whether they are republican, democrat, conservative, liberal, et al.

I assume you agree with me that government is corrupt


So if you think government automatically corrupts any individual working in it, regardless of political leanings, why the "liberal" aspect to your... argument? Are you saying conservatives outside of the government want to change things? They talk about "small government" a lot, but rarely do anything about it.

'Small government' is a conservative way of saying: "we want the bourgeois to rule over us as overlords."
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AuSable River
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Postby AuSable River » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:04 pm

Wirbel wrote:
AuSable River wrote:Who knows?

Probably they are just following the indoctrination that they have received from leftwing educators, pop culture, and the main stream media who are all proponents of big government.

If I could deprogram leftists, I would enlighten them to the fact that government is a market for corruption.

Essentially, it is a place where special interests go to get something by coercive means that they couldn't get in a free, voluntary, and competitive society.

For example, the reckless and irresponsible financial institutions that engaged in questionable business practices prior to the 2008 crisis successfully went to Washington to get bailed out by Bush, RINO republicans and virtually every democrat in Congress (including obama).

Not surprisingly, these same banks contributed generously to both obama and bush in their respective elections. Moreover, the these same failed bankers have figured prominently in both the bush and obama cabinets.

Using the 'logic' of the Left -- obama, bush, and democrats in congress were required to divert scarce resources from productive sectors of the economy to bailout the very negligent and reckless firms and individuals who helped cause the crisis or in the very least were clueless on how to mitigate its impact.

They don't really know why --just that the same fools and crooks who caused the crisis must be bailed out AND the politicians and elites in finance told them that a bail out was necessary ??!! How 'surprising' and convenient for these same elitist politicians and bankers.

In reality, the purpose of government isn't to promote sustainable and beneficial economic policy -- it is for self-serving politicians and their corrupt cronies in the public and private sector to 'game' the system to their benefit at the expense of productive individuals and firms in the private sector (who by definition don't need government help).

This is the preamble of ECO 101 for progressives.

In sum, if any liberal/progressive/leftist thinks that government is not corrupt and coercive -- then you cant proceed further and we need to resolve this impasse.

Please ask questions.


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the problem is that GOvernment does not give a choice.

It chooses for us against our will.

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Wikkiwallana
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Postby Wikkiwallana » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:04 pm

You want a question? Here you go: Why do you think insulting your intended audience callously and repeatedly is going to get them to listen to you?
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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:05 pm

Arborlawn wrote:Most conservatives are for big government.

Gay marriage should not be allowed
Why should the government dictate what a marriage is? That sir, is big government.

Restrictions need to be put in place on Abortion
Why should the government dictate what a mother does with her unborn fetus? That sir, is big government.

School prayer should be reinstated
Why should the government dictate prayer between an individual and their God, or lack thereof? That sir, is big government.

It is a matter of state's rights
You are putting the rights of the state over the rights of the people. In addition, states do not have rights, except those granted by the people. That sir, is the biggest form of government extending its own power without consent.

We are a Christian nation
So we are a theocracy? No different than those theocracies you purport to have disdain for around the world. That sir, is big government.

The list goes on.

:clap:
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Maurepas
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Postby Maurepas » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:05 pm

The Government of the United States is primarily corrupted by private interests. While I want the Government to better provide for the general welfare, I also want to limit, and even eliminate the interests of private enterprise through being able to pump money into the system.

While wanting more Government Services(i.e. "Bigger Government"), but I also want to eliminate corruption within that government, by banning private donors to politicians.

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Death Metal
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Postby Death Metal » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:06 pm

AuSable River wrote:
the problem is that GOvernment does not give a choice.


It's called "voting".
Only here when I'm VERY VERY VERY bored now.
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34 arguments Libertarians (and sometimes AnCaps) make, and why they are wrong.

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Lancaster of Wessex
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Postby Lancaster of Wessex » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:06 pm

AuSable River wrote:the problem is that GOvernment does not give a choice.

It chooses for us against our will.


Incorrect. You put them in office, or rather, your fellow Americans did.

You don't like who's in office? Vote a third party in then who aligns with your ideals.
Last edited by Lancaster of Wessex on Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:06 pm

Maurepas wrote:The Government of the United States is primarily corrupted by private interests. While I want the Government to better provide for the general welfare, I also want to limit, and even eliminate the interests of private enterprise through being able to pump money into the system.

While wanting more Government Services(i.e. "Bigger Government"), but I also want to eliminate corruption within that government, by banning private donors to politicians.

Well said, Comrade!
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Natair
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Postby Natair » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:06 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
Arborlawn wrote:Most conservatives are for big government.

Gay marriage should not be allowed
Why should the government dictate what a marriage is? That sir, is big government.

Restrictions need to be put in place on Abortion
Why should the government dictate what a mother does with her unborn fetus? That sir, is big government.

School prayer should be reinstated
Why should the government dictate prayer between an individual and their God, or lack thereof? That sir, is big government.

It is a matter of state's rights
You are putting the rights of the state over the rights of the people. In addition, states do not have rights, except those granted by the people. That sir, is the biggest form of government extending its own power without consent.

We are a Christian nation
So we are a theocracy? No different than those theocracies you purport to have disdain for around the world. That sir, is big government.

The list goes on.

:clap:

Well done, thanks for making all my arguments for me.
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Wikkiwallana
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Postby Wikkiwallana » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:07 pm

AuSable River wrote:
Zevassa wrote:I stopped reading once I got to the word "indoctrination" -- I don't think that conservatives know what this word actually means.

When you stop using GOP sponsored buzz-words and think for yourself, let me know and I'll give it another read.



Denial, that is expected.

In sum, if you dont have the intellectual courage or wherewithal to challenge my assertion that government is a market for coercive corruption than

dont let the screen door hit you on the way out.

Why should we challenge your assertion until you support it?
Proud Scalawag and Statist!

Please don't confuse my country for my politics; my country is being run as a parody, my posts aren't.
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Halt!
Just because these people are stupid, wrong and highly dangerous does not mean you have the right to make them feel sad.
Xenohumanity wrote:
Nulono wrote:Snip
I'm a pro-lifer who runs a nation of dragon-men...
And even I think that's stupid.
Avenio wrote:Just so you know, the use of the term 'sheep' 'sheeple' or any other herd animal-based terminology in conjunction with an exhortation to 'think outside the box' or stop going along with groupthink generally indicates that the speaker is actually more closed-minded on the subject than the people that he/she is addressing. At least, in my experience at least.

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AuSable River
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Postby AuSable River » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:07 pm

Arborlawn wrote:Most conservatives are for big government.

Gay marriage should not be allowed
Why should the government dictate what a marriage is? That sir, is big government.

Restrictions need to be put in place on Abortion
Why should the government dictate what a mother does with her unborn fetus? That sir, is big government.

School prayer should be reinstated
Why should the government dictate prayer between an individual and their God, or lack thereof? That sir, is big government.

It is a matter of state's rights
You are putting the rights of the state over the rights of the people. In addition, states do not have rights, except those granted by the people. That sir, is the biggest form of government extending its own power without consent.

We are a Christian nation
So we are a theocracy? No different than those theocracies you purport to have disdain for around the world. That sir, is big government.

The list goes on.


Add this one.

We are an socialist nation
Why should government plunder the wealth of private citizens and give it to special interests.

but it appears you agree that government is corrupt, or you are a hypocrite who believes that YOUR government is okay and your neighbor's is not.
Last edited by AuSable River on Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:08 pm

Natair wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote: :clap:

Well done, thanks for making all my arguments for me.
WE ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION! WE HAVE NO OFFICIAL RELIGION FOR A REASON!

We weren't saying that it was.
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An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
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Wirbel
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Postby Wirbel » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:08 pm

Maurepas wrote:The Government of the United States is primarily corrupted by private interests. While I want the Government to better provide for the general welfare, I also want to limit, and even eliminate the interests of private enterprise through being able to pump money into the system.

While wanting more Government Services(i.e. "Bigger Government"), but I also want to eliminate corruption within that government, by banning private donors to politicians.


I prefer the corporation over the individual. A lot of the corrupt private interests are personal rather than business related. I wish to minimize bureaucracy and maximize productivity.
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Nah, they'll probably end up in one of the gulags rehabilitation facilities in Siberia.

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New Rogernomics
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Postby New Rogernomics » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:08 pm

For example, the reckless and irresponsible financial institutions that engaged in questionable business practices prior to the 2008 crisis successfully went to Washington to get bailed out by Bush, RINO republicans and virtually every democrat in Congress (including obama).
Eh? Most Republicans voted for the bailout, Bush advocated the bailout; Republicans and Democrats alike voted for the elimination of financial regulations for several decades, even today's head of the Federal Reserve (to paraphrase) argues that 'the US is still in a bad shape because there is too much regulation'. You haven't learned anything since 08-09 have you? :p

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Death Metal
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Postby Death Metal » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:08 pm

AuSable River wrote:We are an socialist nation
Why should government plunder the wealth of private citizens and give it to special interests.


You have no idea what socialism means or is.
Only here when I'm VERY VERY VERY bored now.
(Trump is Reagan 2.0: A nationalistic bimbo who will ruin America.)
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Pro: Civil Equality, Scaled Income Taxes, Centralized Govtt, Moderate Business Regulations, Heavy Metal
Con: Censorship in any medium, Sales Tax, Flat Tax, Small Govt, Overly Large Govt, Laissez Faire, AutoTuner.

I support Obama. And so would FA Hayek.

34 arguments Libertarians (and sometimes AnCaps) make, and why they are wrong.

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Transhuman Proteus
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Postby Transhuman Proteus » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:09 pm

AuSable River wrote:
Wirbel wrote:
Liberal =/= Leftist
Conservative =/= Rightist
Liberal =/= Socialist
Conservative =/= Capitalist
Liberal =/= Libertarian
Conservative =/= Authoritarian
Liberalism does not make you free and conservatism does not lock you up in a cage. It really just depends on what you'd prefer to live with.



the problem is that GOvernment does not give a choice.

It chooses for us against our will.


Isn't the "voting" part intended to serve as our expression of choice?

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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:09 pm

AuSable River wrote:
Arborlawn wrote:Most conservatives are for big government.

Gay marriage should not be allowed
Why should the government dictate what a marriage is? That sir, is big government.

Restrictions need to be put in place on Abortion
Why should the government dictate what a mother does with her unborn fetus? That sir, is big government.

School prayer should be reinstated
Why should the government dictate prayer between an individual and their God, or lack thereof? That sir, is big government.

It is a matter of state's rights
You are putting the rights of the state over the rights of the people. In addition, states do not have rights, except those granted by the people. That sir, is the biggest form of government extending its own power without consent.

We are a Christian nation
So we are a theocracy? No different than those theocracies you purport to have disdain for around the world. That sir, is big government.

The list goes on.


Add this one.

We are an socialist nation
Why should government plunder the wealth of private citizens and give it to special interests.

That isn't socialism, in fact, it sounds more like what many private companies do.
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.

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An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:09 pm

The OP is full of shit. Let's enlighten him.

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Another.

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Norstal
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Postby Norstal » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:09 pm

Wikkiwallana wrote:You want a question? Here you go: Why do you think insulting your intended audience callously and repeatedly is going to get them to listen to you?

I like how the O.P just completely ignores this post.
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Lancaster of Wessex
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Postby Lancaster of Wessex » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:10 pm

Norstal wrote:
Wikkiwallana wrote:You want a question? Here you go: Why do you think insulting your intended audience callously and repeatedly is going to get them to listen to you?

I like how the O.P just completely ignores this post.


My queries have been ignored as well. Le sigh.
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The Most High, Potent, and Noble Prince, Lancaster, By the Grace of God, Duke of Wessex, Protector of the Enclaved Pious Estates of The Church of Wessex, Lord of Saint Aldhelm Islands, Prince and Great Steward of Celtic Wessex, Keeper of the Great Seal of the Duchy and House of Lancaster of Wessex, Sovereign of the Most Ancient and Illustrious Order of the Gold Gryphon, etc.

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Death Metal
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Postby Death Metal » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:10 pm

Wirbel wrote:
Maurepas wrote:The Government of the United States is primarily corrupted by private interests. While I want the Government to better provide for the general welfare, I also want to limit, and even eliminate the interests of private enterprise through being able to pump money into the system.

While wanting more Government Services(i.e. "Bigger Government"), but I also want to eliminate corruption within that government, by banning private donors to politicians.


I prefer the corporation over the individual. A lot of the corrupt private interests are personal rather than business related. I wish to minimize bureaucracy and maximize productivity.


Same link I used before, but FUCK corporations.
Only here when I'm VERY VERY VERY bored now.
(Trump is Reagan 2.0: A nationalistic bimbo who will ruin America.)
Death Metal: A nation founded on the most powerful force in the world: METAL! \m/
A non-idealist centre-leftist

Alts: Ronpaulatia, Bisonopolis, Iga, Gygaxia, The Children of Skyrim, Tinfoil Fedoras

Pro: Civil Equality, Scaled Income Taxes, Centralized Govtt, Moderate Business Regulations, Heavy Metal
Con: Censorship in any medium, Sales Tax, Flat Tax, Small Govt, Overly Large Govt, Laissez Faire, AutoTuner.

I support Obama. And so would FA Hayek.

34 arguments Libertarians (and sometimes AnCaps) make, and why they are wrong.

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