Have I no right?

[Grave_n_idle]

Is this thread still going even?

Crazy...

So, who opposes pro-life and what art thou reasoning?

I don't oppose 'pro-life' - I oppose 'anti-choice'.

I, personally, do not favour abortion. I do, however, favour the right to choose.

Well, in any case, let me ask this...do you think that fetuses should have rights...former fetus?

Not GnI, but I'll answer anyways...
No, I don't, and I certainly don't think that they should have more rights than other people.

And, indeed, the Force is strong with this one - since even the wording is pretty close.

LOL, I wasn't actually trying to answer for you, although I knew your answer would be close, we've participated in enough of these threads that I know we're in agreement on this issue.

It's almost to the point that I can retire. I can just post a smiley face and change my sig to "Dyakovo will answer that one for me".

[Kashindahar]

The context of the discussion tells us that we're talking about zygote's and forward that did implant, so this is kind of moot.

Exactly. You see that as the end of the logic, I see that as a flaw IN the logic.

Actually, it's a premise, not a conclusion.

The 'point is moot' because the damn thing is now a full-blown pregnancy, (specifically, in this case, an unwanted one), and we're taking AS OUR GROUND ZERO assumption, that the pregnancy deserves to continue.

Actually the point is moot because we're not talking about a pregnancy that spontaneously aborted, or one which never happened because implantation never occured, but, rather, one that, if there are no fuck-ups and no abortion, will result in babby. That's why it's a moot point, not because we're assuming that the right to life is inviolate. Fucking hell.

[Grave_n_idle]

...

Where is the relevance anymore?

His entire time on this thread has been trying to agitate GnI. What a troll.

To be honest, I'm somewhat sympathetic - I think most people concluded, long ago, that trying to agitate me is like stealing bananas - fruitless.

If someone is going to go for an impassioned response, I'm a pretty poor choice of target.

[Grave_n_idle]

The context of the discussion tells us that we're talking about zygote's and forward that did implant, so this is kind of moot.

Exactly. You see that as the end of the logic, I see that as a flaw IN the logic.

Actually, it's a premise, not a conclusion.

The 'point is moot' because the damn thing is now a full-blown pregnancy, (specifically, in this case, an unwanted one), and we're taking AS OUR GROUND ZERO assumption, that the pregnancy deserves to continue.

Actually the point is moot because we're not talking about a pregnancy that spontaneously aborted, or one which never happened because implantation never occured, but, rather, one that, if there are no fuck-ups and no abortion, will result in babby. That's why it's a moot point, not because we're assuming that the right to life is inviolate. Fucking hell.

Take a chill pill, man. You're twisting my mellow.

[The Rifle Brigade]

To be honest, I'm somewhat sympathetic - I think most people concluded, long ago, that trying to agitate me is like stealing bananas - fruitless.

If someone is going to go for an impassioned response, I'm a pretty poor choice of target.

If I may quote Kant, "He who gets worked up on the internet over nothing, loves nothing."

[Lunatic Goofballs]

Is this thread still going even?

Crazy...

So, who opposes pro-life and what art thou reasoning?

I don't oppose 'pro-life' - I oppose 'anti-choice'.

I, personally, do not favour abortion. I do, however, favour the right to choose.

Well, in any case, let me ask this...do you think that fetuses should have rights...former fetus?

Not GnI, but I'll answer anyways...
No, I don't, and I certainly don't think that they should have more rights than other people.

Why don't we all assume, for the sake of argument, that fetuses should get legal rights, and then give some thought to the various legal issues that need addressing.

Fetal voting rights: How can we ensure true enfranchisement of fetuses, if the mother is present in the voting booth with the fetus?

Fetal religious freedoms: If the fetus wants to keep kosher but the mother does not, what is she allowed to eat?

Fetal right to assembly: If a group of fetuses wish to peaceably assemble, how will we choose which woman's uterus to host the gathering?

Fetal gun ownership: Should gun manufacturers be required to install safety mechanisms that will ensure that the gun does not accidentally discharge during labor?

If a fetus wants out immediately and isn't allowed out for another three months, is it kidnapping?

[Hairless Kitten II]

If a fetus wants out immediately and isn't allowed out for another three months, is it kidnapping?

Only if the mother is demanding a ransom.

[The True Hell]

Ignoring for the moment the brain-breaking concept of a "pre-conception fetus"....did you seriously just set yourself up with an argument that boils down to "a fetus is no more or less alive than an egg or sperm cell," in an attempt to oppose abortion?

Given the fact that the abortion argument has been made a "when does life begin?" argument ever since it first began to be debated years ago? . . . . . then yes

Do you actually support criminalizing menstruation and masturbation, then?

you menstruate without government sanction!?
to the stockade with you!!!

Oddly enough, most people think a woman is slightly more than an "environment." If you, as an adult human, could not survive without climbing into my uterus, I'm still pretty damn sure no one would consider me to have murdered you by denying you permission to enter my uterus. You're welcome to try walking up to random women, demanding access to their wombs, and threatening to charge them with murder if they don't comply, if you don't believe me. Ideally, you could also film this and put in on YouTube, because something tells me I would find the results entertaining.

I'm pretty sure if for some reason if i came down with some sort of condition rendering the only way i could survive was being placed into a uterus again that there would be some medical treatment they could possibly apply making me have to ask women unnecessary . . . . oh wait we have this invention called "life support" with machines that breath for me and perform all other bodily functions as well,but then again in that situation i'd probably be in a very bad coma.

If you think babies typically "leave on there [sic] own," I invite you to say that to any woman who has experienced labor. Do feel free to post the video of those results on YouTube, too.

Oh.I'm sorry,i didn't realize it was the woman who chose when her water breaks or what the child does in that situation. I could have sworn that the child flips itself over to face the vaginal canal and begin it's descent

Please read Bottle's helpful list.

I would have but 1.It's not a list about differences between tape worms and babys and 2.I didn't know it was there since i didn't feel like sifting through 50+pages on the off chance that bottle made some sort of list

As you see it, women are simply "environments," labor doesn't actually occur, every sperm really is sacred, and pregnancy is just an "inconvenience." Your ability to see appears to be more than a little questionable.

A uterus IS an environment. It has a PH balance and everything.
Oh you said "Woman",not "uterus",my apologies,Yes. All people are "environments" we're bipedal, locomotive bio-domes.
I really enjoy our chats poli and i can't wait to see what you have to say about this

[Grave_n_idle]

To be honest, I'm somewhat sympathetic - I think most people concluded, long ago, that trying to agitate me is like stealing bananas - fruitless.

If someone is going to go for an impassioned response, I'm a pretty poor choice of target.

If I may quote Kant, "He who gets worked up on the internet over nothing, loves nothing."

Ah, but wan't it Confucius who said: "Tequila. A little lime. A friend of the devil is a friend of mine"?

[Grave_n_idle]

Is this thread still going even?

Crazy...

So, who opposes pro-life and what art thou reasoning?

I don't oppose 'pro-life' - I oppose 'anti-choice'.

I, personally, do not favour abortion. I do, however, favour the right to choose.

Well, in any case, let me ask this...do you think that fetuses should have rights...former fetus?

Not GnI, but I'll answer anyways...
No, I don't, and I certainly don't think that they should have more rights than other people.

Why don't we all assume, for the sake of argument, that fetuses should get legal rights, and then give some thought to the various legal issues that need addressing.

Fetal voting rights: How can we ensure true enfranchisement of fetuses, if the mother is present in the voting booth with the fetus?

Fetal religious freedoms: If the fetus wants to keep kosher but the mother does not, what is she allowed to eat?

Fetal right to assembly: If a group of fetuses wish to peaceably assemble, how will we choose which woman's uterus to host the gathering?

Fetal gun ownership: Should gun manufacturers be required to install safety mechanisms that will ensure that the gun does not accidentally discharge during labor?

If a fetus wants out immediately and isn't allowed out for another three months, is it kidnapping?

This leads to all kinds of confusing and distressing images about holding hostages, and ensuring they have enough to eat. There are some things no one ever wants to see happen to a twinkie.

[Ryadn]

Indeed. If his mother had gotten an abortion, or even better, not been raped in the first place, perhaps she would have chosen to have a child later under better circumstances anyway. Something to think about.

It wouldn't have been the OP, though, so I'm not sure what your point is.

No, it would have been someone else, and both they and the mother might have lived better lives. The point is that arguments like "if my mother had an abortion I wouldn't be here!" are silly appeals to emotion. I can just as easily say, "If my mother HADN'T had an abortion I wouldn't be here!", because it's true. Some other, much older person would be here and his/her life and my mom's life would be totally different---and considering the circumstances, probably not happier.

[Poliwanacraca]

Ignoring for the moment the brain-breaking concept of a "pre-conception fetus"....did you seriously just set yourself up with an argument that boils down to "a fetus is no more or less alive than an egg or sperm cell," in an attempt to oppose abortion?

Given the fact that the abortion argument has been made a "when does life begin?" argument ever since it first began to be debated years ago? . . . . . then yes

Do you actually support criminalizing menstruation and masturbation, then?

you menstruate without government sanction!?
to the stockade with you!!!

Yes, ha ha, very funny. If you do NOT support criminalizing menstruation and male masturbation, could you explain how a fetus being as much alive as an egg or sperm cell in any way supports your argument?

Oddly enough, most people think a woman is slightly more than an "environment." If you, as an adult human, could not survive without climbing into my uterus, I'm still pretty damn sure no one would consider me to have murdered you by denying you permission to enter my uterus. You're welcome to try walking up to random women, demanding access to their wombs, and threatening to charge them with murder if they don't comply, if you don't believe me. Ideally, you could also film this and put in on YouTube, because something tells me I would find the results entertaining.

I'm pretty sure if for some reason if i came down with some sort of condition rendering the only way i could survive was being placed into a uterus again that there would be some medical treatment they could possibly apply making me have to ask women unnecessary . . . . oh wait we have this invention called "life support" with machines that breath for me and perform all other bodily functions as well,but then again in that situation i'd probably be in a very bad coma.

Dodging the point does not actually make it disappear. You are welcome to hook embryos up to life-support machines, just as you are welcome to have yourself hooked up to them. You are not welcome to demand a woman use her uterus to support that embryo, just as you are not welcome to demand she use it to support you.

If you think babies typically "leave on there [sic] own," I invite you to say that to any woman who has experienced labor. Do feel free to post the video of those results on YouTube, too.

Oh.I'm sorry,i didn't realize it was the woman who chose when her water breaks or what the child does in that situation. I could have sworn that the child flips itself over to face the vaginal canal and begin it's descent

And, again, if you think that is all of what getting the child out of the woman's body entails, you should absolutely say that to women who have experienced labor. I continue to suspect that the results would entertain many of us.

Please read Bottle's helpful list.

I would have but 1.It's not a list about differences between tape worms and babys and 2.I didn't know it was there since i didn't feel like sifting through 50+pages on the off chance that bottle made some sort of list

It is quoted on the same page as your post. It is, in fact, quoted directly above the post of mine you're responding to here. I do not know if it is humanly possible to be so lazy that you couldn't glance up one post.

As you see it, women are simply "environments," labor doesn't actually occur, every sperm really is sacred, and pregnancy is just an "inconvenience." Your ability to see appears to be more than a little questionable.

A uterus IS an environment. It has a PH balance and everything.
Oh you said "Woman",not "uterus",my apologies,Yes.

Oh, what a wit you are. Ha. Ha.

All people are "environments" we're bipedal, locomotive bio-domes.

All people are also significantly more than just environments, which would be what I actually said. Otherwise, you would have no cause to object if someone decided to raise a culture of, say, Yersinia pestis in your lungs. Somehow I suspect that you see yourself as more than simply an environment, and would very strongly support your right not to support a plague colony against your will.

I really enjoy our chats poli and i can't wait to see what you have to say about this

Um...that's nice, I guess?

[The Rifle Brigade]

Fetal gun ownership: Should gun manufacturers be required to install safety mechanisms that will ensure that the gun does not accidentally discharge during labor?

You Americans have already solved this with your innovative esprit de corps!

Colt makes a single action revolver chambered in .45 LC with a contraction resistant trigger guard.

[Xsyne]

Btw a tapeworm will deteriorate your health over time till you die no matter how good it was before it arrived.

Tapeworms very rarely kill the host. Why would they? They would gain no advantage by doing so, because they're not very good at moving.

Also tapeworms never leave on there own.

Yes, they do. They routinely shed large numbers of body segments (which are organisms in and of themselves) that are expelled in the host's feces. As I recall, tapeworms will also leave when faced with severe environmental stress.

[Muravyets]

Btw a tapeworm will deteriorate your health over time till you die no matter how good it was before it arrived.

Tapeworms very rarely kill the host. Why would they? They would gain no advantage by doing so, because they're not very good at moving.

Also tapeworms never leave on there own.

Yes, they do. They routinely shed large numbers of body segments (which are organisms in and of themselves) that are expelled in the host's feces. As I recall, tapeworms will also leave when faced with severe environmental stress.

Apparently, pregnancy is not the only thing a person has to be completely ignorant of in order to make an anti-choice argument.

[Darshannon]

tl;dr

Why would 'Quotation Marks' care if he was aborted? It's not like a fetus in the first trimester can think, feel pain or anything.

Oh, and if his mother wasn't raped at all he wouldn't exist either. Does it mean we have to fuck like wild rabbits so sperm won't go to waste?

[The Rifle Brigade]

Apparently, pregnancy is not the only thing a person has to be completely ignorant of in order to make an anti-choice argument.

I take it you're a woman, since you try to twist the argument calling the pro-lifers "anti-choice".

Please reserve that label for the people who deserve it, like people who are against gay marriage, against separation of church and state, and in favor of putting the ten commandments up in schools.





Wait...

[The True Hell]

Yes, ha ha, very funny. If you do NOT support criminalizing menstruation and male masturbation, could you explain how a fetus being as much alive as an egg or sperm cell in any way supports your argument?

Firstly and i could be wrong i thought it was stated somewhere in a medical journal that there was really no medical reason for a woman to really have to menstruate ever but could still have a proper pregnancy.
Secondly,how would you go about setting up a government organization for the purpose of checking to see if a guy has masturbated? If we had such a system and it was accurate then sure,why not criminalize masturbation? We could also write up Nocturnal Emission's as Mass Suicides

all of what getting the child out of the woman's body entailsDodging the point does not actually make it disappear. You are welcome to hook embryos up to life-support machines, just as you are welcome to have yourself hooked up to them. You are not welcome to demand a woman use her uterus to support that embryo, just as you are not welcome to demand she use it to support you.

I never dodged it,i simply stated that if i was in that bad of health i'd be in a coma or at least in a position where i couldn't speak seeing as the ventilator tube is shoved down my throat,plus having that medical option afforded to a sick human with fully mature organs renders the question of needing a uterus to stay alive let alone needing to look for one pointless.

And, again, if you think that is all of what getting the child out of the woman's body entails, you should absolutely say that to women who have experienced labor. I continue to suspect that the results would entertain many of us.

I never said that it was "all of what getting the child out of the woman's body entails" i said "it's not the woman who decides when her baby is developed enough and should leave the womb"

It is quoted on the same page as your post. It is, in fact, quoted directly above the post of mine you're responding to here. I do not know if it is humanly possible to be so lazy that you couldn't glance up one post.

like i said "i didn't feel like sifting through 50+pages on the off chance that bottle made some sort of list" that and the fact that the person i was replying to or "quoting" was on the first page means i didn't read as far as his post.

All people are also significantly more than just environments, which would be what I actually said. Otherwise, you would have no cause to object if someone decided to raise a culture of, say, Yersinia pestis in your lungs. Somehow I suspect that you see yourself as more than simply an environment, and would very strongly support your right not to support a plague colony against your will.

First of all when did children become a "plague"?
Secondly if it was done without my knowledge and i had no idea what was being done nor understood the consequences,then how could i object? A baby doesn't have any of that so it can't, but if it could understand do you think it'd be okay with it's own termination? Are you okay with the thought of your own termination?

[Treznor]

All people are also significantly more than just environments, which would be what I actually said. Otherwise, you would have no cause to object if someone decided to raise a culture of, say, Yersinia pestis in your lungs. Somehow I suspect that you see yourself as more than simply an environment, and would very strongly support your right not to support a plague colony against your will.

First of all when did children become a "plague"?

When a pregnancy is unwanted, "plague" is a polite phrase. Especially when you're the one expected to carry it to term.

Secondly if it was done without my knowledge and i had no idea what was being done nor understood the consequences,then how could i object? A baby doesn't have any of that so it can't, but if it could understand do you think it'd be okay with it's own termination? Are you okay with the thought of your own termination?

If it could understand, then it wouldn't be an issue, would it? But it doesn't understand, and it has no way to understand for years after it develops the physical ability to begin to comprehend the concept. By the time abortion is ruled out, a fetus doesn't even have the capability to manage its own body functions, let alone engage in higher cognitive reasoning. That kicks in a few years after birth, not a few weeks after conception.

[New Kereptica]

Holy shit! 10 pages since I went to sleep last night?

[New Kereptica]

Yes, ha ha, very funny. If you do NOT support criminalizing menstruation and male masturbation, could you explain how a fetus being as much alive as an egg or sperm cell in any way supports your argument?

Firstly and i could be wrong i thought it was stated somewhere in a medical journal that there was really no medical reason for a woman to really have to menstruate ever but could still have a proper pregnancy.
Secondly,how would you go about setting up a government organization for the purpose of checking to see if a guy has masturbated? If we had such a system and it was accurate then sure,why not criminalize masturbation? We could also write up Nocturnal Emission's as Mass Suicides

You are wrong. If women didn't menstruate, the sperm would have to come in contact with the egg inside the ovaries themselves, resulting in millions of eggs getting fertilised at once.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

You are wrong. If women didn't menstruate, the sperm would have to come in contact with the egg inside the ovaries themselves, resulting in millions of eggs getting fertilised at once.

A woman doesn't have millions of eggs.

[New Kereptica]

You are wrong. If women didn't menstruate, the sperm would have to come in contact with the egg inside the ovaries themselves, resulting in millions of eggs getting fertilised at once.

A woman doesn't have millions of eggs.

Yahoo Answers lied to me!

Anyway, several hundred thousand, if the other site I looked at is to be trusted.

[Ryadn]

You are wrong. If women didn't menstruate, the sperm would have to come in contact with the egg inside the ovaries themselves, resulting in millions of eggs getting fertilised at once.

A woman doesn't have millions of eggs.

Yahoo Answers lied to me!

Anyway, several hundred thousand, if the other site I looked at is to be trusted.

About 40,000, allowing for natural variation.

As for ova being fertilized in the ovary, it does happen. It's called an ectopic pregnancy, it's very painful and dangerous, and the embryo doesn't usually survive.

[Tunizcha]

You are wrong. If women didn't menstruate, the sperm would have to come in contact with the egg inside the ovaries themselves, resulting in millions of eggs getting fertilised at once.

A woman doesn't have millions of eggs.

Yahoo Answers lied to me!

Anyway, several hundred thousand, if the other site I looked at is to be trusted.

It that were true, a woman would never go into menopause in her 40-50, since she would never run out of eggs. It's more like 400.