Have I no right?

[Hiddenrun]

I didn't gloat about your ban. That's just one more slightly-less-than-honest claim to add to the already fairly extensive list.

And, I see you want to, once again, bring up the same argument I've told you I'm not going to have, and you're going to piggy back on my comments to Hydes to try to kickstart it. Unfortunately, I'm talking about you. Not to you.

I know! It's so unreasonable of me to ask you:

"WHAT DEFINITION OF 'PERSON' ARE YOU USING?"

I mean, trying to clarify your argument rather than assuming I know what your starting place is; well that's just unconscionable! Outrageous! How dare I! Clearly the only thing you can do is flat out refuse to answer such a ridiculously complicated question! Why, if you did that, people might know where you're making your argument from, and goodness me, we don't want that!

[The Rifle Brigade]

Thank you. Now I await the anti-choice defense about how none of this should be a big deal since we were "made" to do this.

You were made to give glory to God. The pains of child birth are your punishment for...not having enough oil for your lamps or something.

I don't know the Old Testament.

[Dyakovo]

Is this thread still going even?

Crazy...

So, who opposes pro-life and what art thou reasoning?

I don't oppose 'pro-life' - I oppose 'anti-choice'.

I, personally, do not favour abortion. I do, however, favour the right to choose.

Well, in any case, let me ask this...do you think that fetuses should have rights...former fetus?

Not GnI, but I'll answer anyways...
No, I don't, and I certainly don't think that they should have more rights than other people.

[Poliwanacraca]

Whee, I finally finished all 52 pages (NSG is so great for procrastinating...), so now I get to respond to at least a few specimens from this giant pile o' nonsense.

You actually read the whole thing?

You are seriously dedicated. Or really trying to avoid doing something else.

I am thoroughly, utterly sick of filling out job applications to the point where if someone asked me whether I would prefer to fill out another job application or hit myself over the head with a brick, I would have to give that question some very serious thought. Given that, 53 pages of abortion thread is almost like fun.

Poliwanacraca reads the entire thread, and in a stupor, fills out the following online job application, resulting in a human resources director receiving this:

Name: Abortion is Murder.
Age: No its not.
Date: Murder is a legal Term.
Address: No its not.
Position for which you are applying: If a woman has sex, she should pay the consequences.
Desired Rate of Pay: This is a case of rape, read the OP.
Special Skills: If you put sperm in a fish bowl of warm clean water, they grow like sea monkeys.
Software Training: A zygote is viable from conception.
Languages Spoken: Are you fucking retarded? Do you know what "viable" means?
Date you can begin: 3rd Trimester.
Please Tell Us Something Unique About Yourself: I have hair growing out of my nipples and hyperpigmentation on the strip leading to my vagina.

Result (Management only, do not write in this space): Offer of employment pending drug test.

You have no idea how tempted I am to do this on a job application I don't care about...

[Grave_n_idle]

Whee, I finally finished all 52 pages (NSG is so great for procrastinating...), so now I get to respond to at least a few specimens from this giant pile o' nonsense.

You actually read the whole thing?

You are seriously dedicated. Or really trying to avoid doing something else.

I am thoroughly, utterly sick of filling out job applications to the point where if someone asked me whether I would prefer to fill out another job application or hit myself over the head with a brick, I would have to give that question some very serious thought. Given that, 53 pages of abortion thread is almost like fun.

54 pages of "it's murder", "no, it's not murder, because round here, words have meanings", "oh. It's murder"... seems like fun?

You really are sick of job applications.

[Grave_n_idle]

Is this thread still going even?

Crazy...

So, who opposes pro-life and what art thou reasoning?

I don't oppose 'pro-life' - I oppose 'anti-choice'.

I, personally, do not favour abortion. I do, however, favour the right to choose.

Well, in any case, let me ask this...do you think that fetuses should have rights...former fetus?

No.

And if they did, they shouldn't have rights that TRUMP the rights of others.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

You were made to give glory to God. The pains of child birth are your punishment for...not having enough oil for your lamps or something.

I don't know the Old Testament.

Women suffer in childbirth because Eve ate from the magic tree, that or the human birth canal is poorly put together because the human skeleton is a shoddy revamping of an essentially quadrupedal model. Both are equally valid ideas, I can't tell which is correct.

Talking snake and magic biology changing fruit

or

Thousands of man-hours of evidence and scrutiny from the most intelligent minds around

I just can't decide!

[Muravyets]

Thank you. Now I await the anti-choice defense about how none of this should be a big deal since we were "made" to do this.

Personally, I just enjoy imaging what it would be like if there were a common condition that led to any and all of the above listed issues, but which only impacted sexually-active heterosexual males...and we then passed a law banning any treatment for said condition on the grounds that sexually active hetero boys shouldn't escape the consequences of their choices simply because they can't be bothered to endure a little discomfort.

That would be amusing, wouldn't it? I can imagine the speeches in Congress and on talk radio right now.

[Muravyets]

Thank you. Now I await the anti-choice defense about how none of this should be a big deal since we were "made" to do this.

You were made to give glory to God. The pains of child birth are your punishment for...not having enough oil for your lamps or something.

I don't know the Old Testament.

Quit trying to drag the Jews into this!!

[Grave_n_idle]

Removing it from the woman almost certainly counts as intervention, Bottle.

But a woman contributing the required conditions and supplying the required materials, doesn't?

Like I told Bottle, no. It's intervention when there's conscious direction of effort, not when it's 'natural', for lack of a better word.

Hmm - that seems conflicted. We often see the claim made that the woman NEEDS to accomodate an unwanted pregnancy, 'because she chose to have sex, so she has to deal with the consequences'... which suggests that INTERCOURSE is intervention on which all (or effectively all) pregnancies are contingent.

If there's no 'intervention', sperm end up in discharged waste, and eggs leave the body through the normal 'natural' mechanism.

While true, this is irrelevant to the context of the posts that you're quoting.

No, not really. The general contention is that fertilised egg = baby if there's no 'intervention'. That only holds true 40% of the time in practise IF all the assumptions are made that implantation (and indeed, insemination) doesn't count as 'intervention'. Which seems more like a semantic argument to ignore the contribution of the woman, rather than a really meaningful argument.

[Poliwanacraca]

Whee, I finally finished all 52 pages (NSG is so great for procrastinating...), so now I get to respond to at least a few specimens from this giant pile o' nonsense.

You actually read the whole thing?

You are seriously dedicated. Or really trying to avoid doing something else.

I am thoroughly, utterly sick of filling out job applications to the point where if someone asked me whether I would prefer to fill out another job application or hit myself over the head with a brick, I would have to give that question some very serious thought. Given that, 53 pages of abortion thread is almost like fun.

54 pages of "it's murder", "no, it's not murder, because round here, words have meanings", "oh. It's murder"... seems like fun?

You really are sick of job applications.

I really, really am. To be fair, though, you do have to remember that those 54 pages were also spiked with Python references, babies growing in fishbowls, the entire world completely failing to live in Texas, magical all-knowing bodies, and whatsherface's statement that she herself should be illegal, all of which make for a rather entertaining experience.

[Muravyets]

Poliwanacraca reads the entire thread, and in a stupor, fills out the following online job application, resulting in a human resources director receiving this:

Name: Abortion is Murder.
Age: No its not.
Date: Murder is a legal Term.
Address: No its not.
Position for which you are applying: If a woman has sex, she should pay the consequences.
Desired Rate of Pay: This is a case of rape, read the OP.
Special Skills: If you put sperm in a fish bowl of warm clean water, they grow like sea monkeys.
Software Training: A zygote is viable from conception.
Languages Spoken: Are you fucking retarded? Do you know what "viable" means?
Date you can begin: 3rd Trimester.
Please Tell Us Something Unique About Yourself: I have hair growing out of my nipples and hyperpigmentation on the strip leading to my vagina.

Result (Management only, do not write in this space): Offer of employment pending drug test.

Egads! It's like I just relived the whole thread!

[WWII History Geeks]

...

Where is the relevance anymore?

[Grave_n_idle]

Whee, I finally finished all 52 pages (NSG is so great for procrastinating...), so now I get to respond to at least a few specimens from this giant pile o' nonsense.

You actually read the whole thing?

You are seriously dedicated. Or really trying to avoid doing something else.

I am thoroughly, utterly sick of filling out job applications to the point where if someone asked me whether I would prefer to fill out another job application or hit myself over the head with a brick, I would have to give that question some very serious thought. Given that, 53 pages of abortion thread is almost like fun.

Poliwanacraca reads the entire thread, and in a stupor, fills out the following online job application, resulting in a human resources director receiving this:

Name: Abortion is Murder.
Age: No its not.
Date: Murder is a legal Term.
Address: No its not.
Position for which you are applying: If a woman has sex, she should pay the consequences.
Desired Rate of Pay: This is a case of rape, read the OP.
Special Skills: If you put sperm in a fish bowl of warm clean water, they grow like sea monkeys.
Software Training: A zygote is viable from conception.
Languages Spoken: Are you fucking retarded? Do you know what "viable" means?
Date you can begin: 3rd Trimester.
Please Tell Us Something Unique About Yourself: I have hair growing out of my nipples and hyperpigmentation on the strip leading to my vagina.

Result (Management only, do not write in this space): Offer of employment pending drug test.

I don't know about anyone else, but - when I was recruiting? I'd probably have hired on the basis of that app.

[Grave_n_idle]

The context of the discussion tells us that we're talking about zygote's and forward that did implant, so this is kind of moot.

Exactly. You see that as the end of the logic, I see that as a flaw IN the logic.

The 'point is moot' because the damn thing is now a full-blown pregnancy, (specifically, in this case, an unwanted one), and we're taking AS OUR GROUND ZERO assumption, that the pregnancy deserves to continue.

[Dyakovo]

Whee, I finally finished all 52 pages (NSG is so great for procrastinating...), so now I get to respond to at least a few specimens from this giant pile o' nonsense.

You actually read the whole thing?

You are seriously dedicated. Or really trying to avoid doing something else.

I am thoroughly, utterly sick of filling out job applications to the point where if someone asked me whether I would prefer to fill out another job application or hit myself over the head with a brick, I would have to give that question some very serious thought. Given that, 53 pages of abortion thread is almost like fun.

54 pages of "it's murder", "no, it's not murder, because round here, words have meanings", "oh. It's murder"... seems like fun?

You really are sick of job applications.

I've been having fun. I take great pleasure in pointing out stupidity.

[Bottle]

Is this thread still going even?

Crazy...

So, who opposes pro-life and what art thou reasoning?

I don't oppose 'pro-life' - I oppose 'anti-choice'.

I, personally, do not favour abortion. I do, however, favour the right to choose.

Well, in any case, let me ask this...do you think that fetuses should have rights...former fetus?

Not GnI, but I'll answer anyways...
No, I don't, and I certainly don't think that they should have more rights than other people.

Why don't we all assume, for the sake of argument, that fetuses should get legal rights, and then give some thought to the various legal issues that need addressing.

Fetal voting rights: How can we ensure true enfranchisement of fetuses, if the mother is present in the voting booth with the fetus?

Fetal religious freedoms: If the fetus wants to keep kosher but the mother does not, what is she allowed to eat?

Fetal right to assembly: If a group of fetuses wish to peaceably assemble, how will we choose which woman's uterus to host the gathering?

Fetal gun ownership: Should gun manufacturers be required to install safety mechanisms that will ensure that the gun does not accidentally discharge during labor?

[Grave_n_idle]

I know! It's so unreasonable of me to ask you:

"WHAT DEFINITION OF 'PERSON' ARE YOU USING?"

Sweet sugarcoated Jesusdicks.

I wasn't the one who invoked personhood. I was the one asking someone ELSE to defend it.

Stop trying to shift the burden.

[Dyakovo]

...

Where is the relevance anymore?

[Grave_n_idle]

Is this thread still going even?

Crazy...

So, who opposes pro-life and what art thou reasoning?

I don't oppose 'pro-life' - I oppose 'anti-choice'.

I, personally, do not favour abortion. I do, however, favour the right to choose.

Well, in any case, let me ask this...do you think that fetuses should have rights...former fetus?

Not GnI, but I'll answer anyways...
No, I don't, and I certainly don't think that they should have more rights than other people.

And, indeed, the Force is strong with this one - since even the wording is pretty close.

[Kashindahar]

No, not really. The general contention is that fertilised egg = baby if there's no 'intervention'. That only holds true 40% of the time in practise IF all the assumptions are made that implantation (and indeed, insemination) doesn't count as 'intervention'. Which seems more like a semantic argument to ignore the contribution of the woman, rather than a really meaningful argument.

My original post was saying that the religious right wasn't going to care about Bottle's argument because shit and cheek cells can't turn into babby if nobody intervenes, while zygote and so forth can turn into babby if nobody intervenes. I was using a specific definition of intervene which is, in fact, a valid definition.

Saying 'Oh, intervention also means this therefore you actually mean this' is not actually a valid method of argument; it is in truth a strawman.

[Muravyets]

...

Where is the relevance anymore?

He's the second anti-choicer to try to claim the thread is pointless or dead after 50+ pages of having their asses handed to them. I think it's a standard "sour grapes" response to losing a debate.

[Dyakovo]

Is this thread still going even?

Crazy...

So, who opposes pro-life and what art thou reasoning?

I don't oppose 'pro-life' - I oppose 'anti-choice'.

I, personally, do not favour abortion. I do, however, favour the right to choose.

Well, in any case, let me ask this...do you think that fetuses should have rights...former fetus?

Not GnI, but I'll answer anyways...
No, I don't, and I certainly don't think that they should have more rights than other people.

And, indeed, the Force is strong with this one - since even the wording is pretty close.

LOL, I wasn't actually trying to answer for you, although I knew your answer would be close, we've participated in enough of these threads that I know we're in agreement on this issue.

[Grave_n_idle]

Whee, I finally finished all 52 pages (NSG is so great for procrastinating...), so now I get to respond to at least a few specimens from this giant pile o' nonsense.

You actually read the whole thing?

You are seriously dedicated. Or really trying to avoid doing something else.

I am thoroughly, utterly sick of filling out job applications to the point where if someone asked me whether I would prefer to fill out another job application or hit myself over the head with a brick, I would have to give that question some very serious thought. Given that, 53 pages of abortion thread is almost like fun.

54 pages of "it's murder", "no, it's not murder, because round here, words have meanings", "oh. It's murder"... seems like fun?

You really are sick of job applications.

I really, really am. To be fair, though, you do have to remember that those 54 pages were also spiked with Python references, babies growing in fishbowls, the entire world completely failing to live in Texas, magical all-knowing bodies, and whatsherface's statement that she herself should be illegal, all of which make for a rather entertaining experience.

True. The diversion into eating foetuses was worth a look, also. I come for the debate, I stay for the food.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0472458/#Scene_1

[Anticommunist States]

...

Where is the relevance anymore?

His entire time on this thread has been trying to agitate GnI. What a troll.