Have I no right?

[Dyakovo]

Why can people abort at all? It's murder! Like I said, these are PEOPLE.

No, it's not murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent (or malice aforethought), and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide. It could arguably be homicide, but again that would require it to be unlawful; also it would require the killing of a person.

[Grave_n_idle]

I didn't say it was okay to kill humans.

I know, I know, you get around that by defining unborn children as non-human. It's okay. I dehumanized the people I had to kill too. I understand the process well. You have to believe it, or you couldn't live with yourself.

I didn't define unborn children as non-human, either.

Do you have an argument that isn't... well, for lack of a more delicate way of putting it... you, lying?

[WWII History Geeks]

Regardless, would it be okay for me to be murdered now if I had not been convicted of a crime? I think we'll all agree no. So would it have been perfectly fine to have killed me then?

You weren't alive you were nothing but a fetus

She (or he) had a heartbeat at 8 weeks. Specialized cells and a shape at 4. At 12, you can tell it's a human. At 20, the nervous system works.I think that constitutes ALIVE.

Being 'alive' doesn't make you a human life.

Cancers are 'alive'.

But do they have a heartbeat and organs?

So, a human life is determined by heartbeat and organs?

Most humans have them...

[Muravyets]

Well then how do you regulate it?

Exactly the same way you regulate every other medical procedure.

[Katganistan]

Am I the only person who thinks it's all bullshit? That it's all complex arguments extrapolated from appeals to emotion and instinct (on both sides)? And that in reality there is no way of determining whether governments should allow abortions or shouldn't?

No, I'm pretty much on board with you.

Mainly because I have nothing better to do, but the premises involved also help.

Of course it is. Because if he'd been aborted, he wouldn't be here to argue about it, nor would he even have been conscious of "self" or "other".

[Rhodmhire]

My mom had the right at the time, but didn't go through.

But I'd still like to know how people can think that they can kill babies and experiment with human embryos all willy-nilly! These are people, not objects, diseases, disorders or experiments!

I, as well as other children, have a right to live my life and enjoy it! Why is it that you can deny others that right?

Because at the time at which you would have been aborted, you were not yet a baby and would not have been able to articulate this wish nor even known that you existed.
How can people expect a woman to have and raise a baby she doesn't want, can't afford, and may hate as a visible symbol of the violence perpetrated against her?

I suppose she doesn't necessarily have to raise it.

But it varies greatly, it's all about circumstance really when you get to it, from what I've experienced.

[Grave_n_idle]

Regardless, would it be okay for me to be murdered now if I had not been convicted of a crime? I think we'll all agree no. So would it have been perfectly fine to have killed me then?

You weren't alive you were nothing but a fetus

She (or he) had a heartbeat at 8 weeks. Specialized cells and a shape at 4. At 12, you can tell it's a human. At 20, the nervous system works.I think that constitutes ALIVE.

Being 'alive' doesn't make you a human life.

Cancers are 'alive'.

But do they have a heartbeat and organs?

So, a human life is determined by heartbeat and organs?

Most humans have them...

That's not an answer.

You've evaded answering the question, throughout.

[WWII History Geeks]

Why can people abort at all? It's murder! Like I said, these are PEOPLE.

No, it's not murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent (or malice aforethought), and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide. It could arguably be homicide, but again that would require it to be unlawful; also it would require the killing of a person.

...what are fetuses if not humans? What is their species? And I don't mean parasite, just what are they? Cat, dog?

[CIB EMPIRE]

The land mass of earth is 148.94 million sq
> km. So what is the population of the human race? Estimate is currently at
> 6,525,170,264 (July 2006 est.).


> Now let us do some translations. For every 148 sq km you get 37,000 acres of
> land.


> 37,000 acre = 148 sq Km meaning that the world has about 3.68*10 to the 10th
> Acres of land. I will be using 37,000,000,000 acres for the math below. Now
> if you were to split that land up between all the people of the earth and
> gave each one a share each would get 5.67 acres of land.


> 37,000,000,000/ 6,525,170,286 = 5.67 acres per person


> That does not sound like a lot does it? Some may say "Much of the land is
> unliveable" and they are right so let look at a area where we could make it
> nearly totally liveable. The Great State of Texas. Texas has a surface area
> of 261,797 square miles.
> 1 square mile = 3,097,600 square yards = 640 acres
> 640 * 261,797 = 167,550,080 acres in Texas


> Now lets say we move all the people of the world to the state of Texas. They
> would each get only .02568 acres of land.
> 167,550,080 / 6,525,170,286 = .02568 acres per person


> That does not sound like alot. But wait how much is .02568 acres?
> 1 acre = 4,840 square yards
> 4,840 * .02568 = 124.29 square yards
> 1 square foot = 1/9 square yard
> 124.29 * 9 = 1,118.61 square feet


> Thusly if we moved every living human to Texas and the split the land amoung
> them they would each get 1,118.61 square feet. Now you may say that still
> does not sound like alot. But consider the average square footage of a
> house.

[Araraukar]

But according to you, the eagles arnt alive until they are born!

Hatched, dearie. Eagles come from hard-shelled eggs. And the eggs can be removed from their mother as soon as they've been laid, and external heat applied, and you can end up with healthy eagle hatchlings. If you can do that with a human fetus, then I'm all for letting them live outside the female's body. But, to my knowledge, it doesn't quite work like that for the human species.

You guys do realize that none of us would be alive today had our mothers had an abortion!

Well, I know for sure that my mother wasn't raped. I doubt the OP's was either, when it comes to that, but I'm protecting the woman's say in what goes on with her body. I wouldn't prevent a male human from having a non-cancerous growth cut out either, whether or not I thought it necessary myself.

youll protect a lifeless clump of cells inside a bird egg before you protect a baby inside a mothers womb!
(I use the term lifeless clump of cells because isnt that what you pro choicers see it as?)

Never said it was lifeless. Tapeworm isn't lifeless either, and yet it couldn't survive outside its host body for long. Parasite is the word I'm using, both for tapeworm and unwanted human embryo.

[WWII History Geeks]

Regardless, would it be okay for me to be murdered now if I had not been convicted of a crime? I think we'll all agree no. So would it have been perfectly fine to have killed me then?

You weren't alive you were nothing but a fetus

She (or he) had a heartbeat at 8 weeks. Specialized cells and a shape at 4. At 12, you can tell it's a human. At 20, the nervous system works.I think that constitutes ALIVE.

Being 'alive' doesn't make you a human life.

Cancers are 'alive'.

But do they have a heartbeat and organs?

So, a human life is determined by heartbeat and organs?

Most humans have them...

That's not an answer.

You've evaded answering the question, throughout.

That was an answer. Most humans have organs and a heartbeat, so yeah, I guess that does define human life.

[Muravyets]

Why can people abort at all? It's murder! Like I said, these are PEOPLE.

No, it's not murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent (or malice aforethought), and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide. It could arguably be homicide, but again that would require it to be unlawful; also it would require the killing of a person.

...what are fetuses if not humans? What is their species? And I don't mean parasite, just what are they? Cat, dog?

What is abortion, if not legal? If it's legal, then it ain't murder.

[Dyakovo]

Good thing your mother didn't have an abortion. It should only be allowed if the mothers life is in danger.

Thank you. That's the right thing to do. Anyways, I feel sorry for you Quotation Marks. I know you're not trying to have a pity party or anything, but life must've been tough.

And really people, why aren't they considered people? And why do we protect Eagle eggs better than HUMANS?

Because there are like 12 eagles.

We're hardly on the brink of extinction.

So its ok to kill unborn babies cause we aren't endangered?

Among other reasons, yes.

[Grave_n_idle]

Why can people abort at all? It's murder! Like I said, these are PEOPLE.

No, it's not murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent (or malice aforethought), and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide. It could arguably be homicide, but again that would require it to be unlawful; also it would require the killing of a person.

...what are fetuses if not humans? What is their species? And I don't mean parasite, just what are they? Cat, dog?

Human tissue =/= a human life.

Excrement contains human tissue. That doesn't make it a person.

[Rhodmhire]

Am I the only person who thinks it's all bullshit? That it's all complex arguments extrapolated from appeals to emotion and instinct (on both sides)? And that in reality there is no way of determining whether governments should allow abortions or shouldn't?

No, I'm pretty much on board with you.

Mainly because I have nothing better to do, but the premises involved also help.

Of course it is. Because if he'd been aborted, he wouldn't be here to argue about it, nor would he even have been conscious of "self" or "other".

Your deep, intricate thoughts hurt my brain.

This whole intricate discussion hurts my brain, come to think of it.

[The Tofu Islands]

I have to go to bed pretty soon, so I may not respond until the morning (if the thread is still around then).

Now, for all you people out there who are "pro-women's choice," have I no right to life?

You have a right to life. You do not, however, have a right to use the body of someone else against their will.

I could've died and you'd just assume that my life for my mother's comfort was a more than fair trade.

Nope. Because it your life wouldn't've ended. You wouldn't have died. You'd have just never lived.

I am very successful today and would like to know why in the United States eagle eggs are better protected than our children

Eagles are an endangered species, humans are not.
I'm not being serious here, of course.

I would like to know how you think it's okay to kill something that has a heartbeat, a hand, a face, and is LIVING and GROWING inside of someone? This is MURDER.

I don't think it's okay to kill a fetus. I think it's okay for someone to stop a parasite from using their body. Unfortunately, before the fetus is viable, removal requires killing.
Also, refer to the end of my post about murder.

Why is this trade considered so equal? A life and comfort are NOT EQUAL!

It would be more accurate to say "something that could potentially become a life, if given enough time and access to a woman's womb" instead of "life". But that might harm your argument...

But I'd still like to know how people can think that they can kill babies and experiment with human embryos all willy-nilly! These are people, not objects, diseases, disorders or experiments!

I don't think it's okay to kill babies. I think killing babies is horrible, and I'm glad that it's illegal.
FYI: a baby is only a baby after ey's born, before that ey's a fetus.
As for embryos, I don't have any problems with experiments being practiced upon them. It's better then using animals.

I, as well as other children, have a right to live my life and enjoy it! Why is it that you can deny others that right?

I don't seek to deny anyone the right to life. But at the same time I don't seek to give anyone the right to annex part of another person's body.

Why can people abort at all? It's murder! Like I said, these are PEOPLE.

Murder is the unlawful killing of a person, so in places where abortion is legal, it is by definition not murder.
And person would usually not refer to a fetus or embryo.

[WWII History Geeks]

Why can people abort at all? It's murder! Like I said, these are PEOPLE.

No, it's not murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent (or malice aforethought), and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide. It could arguably be homicide, but again that would require it to be unlawful; also it would require the killing of a person.

...what are fetuses if not humans? What is their species? And I don't mean parasite, just what are they? Cat, dog?

Human tissue =/= a human life.

Excrement contains human tissue. That doesn't make it a person.

"You evaded my question throughout."

[Grave_n_idle]

That was an answer. Most humans have organs and a heartbeat, so yeah, I guess that does define human life.

So, up until the 8th week, there no argument - it's not a human life?

What about someone who is born with a faulty organ? Are they less human?

If your heart stops beating, you stop being a human life?


Your definition sucks. If we take your definition, a dog is a human life, but someone who has just had a heart attack isn't.

[Dyakovo]

[You guys do realize that none of us would be alive today had our mothers had an abortion!

So?

[Lunatic Goofballs]

I am the child of a rape victim. Yeah, the child of the rapist and my mom. I would have been aborted if my mom would've had access to that.

Now, for all you people out there who are "pro-women's choice," have I no right to life? I could've died and you'd just assume that my life for my mother's comfort was a more than fair trade. I am very successful today and would like to know why in the United States eagle eggs are better protected than our children. I would like to know how you think it's okay to kill something that has a heartbeat, a hand, a face, and is LIVING and GROWING inside of someone? This is MURDER.

Have I no right to life?

Why is this trade considered so equal? A life and comfort are NOT EQUAL!

If you got aborted, you might have come out someone else's vagina. Maybe somebody better. God recycles.

[Hydesland]

Of course it is. Because if he'd been aborted, he wouldn't be here to argue about it, nor would he even have been conscious of "self" or "other".

I'm not sure how this applies to what I said.


Anyway, I'm annoyed at the sheer arrogance in believing that merely saying "fetus' don't have rights because they aren't human beings" even resembles an argument, as both rights and human beings in this case have circular definitions. Of course fetus' are human beings using actual etymologically sound definitions: human meaning part of the human species, being meaning existing.

[Grave_n_idle]

Why can people abort at all? It's murder! Like I said, these are PEOPLE.

No, it's not murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent (or malice aforethought), and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide. It could arguably be homicide, but again that would require it to be unlawful; also it would require the killing of a person.

...what are fetuses if not humans? What is their species? And I don't mean parasite, just what are they? Cat, dog?

Human tissue =/= a human life.

Excrement contains human tissue. That doesn't make it a person.

"You evaded my question throughout."

I didn't evade. An embryo is human tissue - that doesn't make it 'a human life'.

[Rhodmhire]

*snip*

I smell numbers, lots of them. And math problems.

Who brought math into this?

Anyways, I suppose you bring up an interesting point, but there are probably so many problems with that "solution" if that's what you intend to call it (I'm not trying to make a point, I seriously don't know if you mean to call it a solution or not for sure) that I can't even think of off of the top of my head, mainly concerning the vast, differing mindsets of the people who would be living in that "small" area as some would picture it.

[Araraukar]

You bastard! Do you know what you're saying?! That's so low I'm getting sick. Do you people even value the human life? Go to f***ing war or see someone close to you die and think about it, kiddies. Life is a valuable and precious thing. View it as such or someday you might lose it when you don't want to.

I place no intrinsic value on human life. I've also had a very dear person die within the last 6 months. And I still think this way. I have as much right to stand behind my opinion as the OP. Besides, how do you know I'm not a depressed person who's tried suicide before? Wouldn't that (if it were true - in the Internet you can't know if it is or not) mean I truly place no value on human life, not even my own?

[Grave_n_idle]

I am the child of a rape victim. Yeah, the child of the rapist and my mom. I would have been aborted if my mom would've had access to that.

Now, for all you people out there who are "pro-women's choice," have I no right to life? I could've died and you'd just assume that my life for my mother's comfort was a more than fair trade. I am very successful today and would like to know why in the United States eagle eggs are better protected than our children. I would like to know how you think it's okay to kill something that has a heartbeat, a hand, a face, and is LIVING and GROWING inside of someone? This is MURDER.

Have I no right to life?

Why is this trade considered so equal? A life and comfort are NOT EQUAL!

If you got aborted, you might have come out someone else's vagina. Maybe somebody better. God recycles.

LG wins for including the words 'vagina' and 'God' in the same response.