Stance on Abortion?

[Northern Dominus]

...do we have to use tongues?

If you do, can I watch?

Nope, you have to participate.

And? Why should it matter? In both cases you were attacked against your will. Why should anyone help you? It's obviously your own fault.

Because removing a bullet will not result in the destruction of another human life.

I suppose it's futile to ask for a source on that one...

[Mavorpen]

And? Why should it matter? In both cases you were attacked against your will. Why should anyone help you? It's obviously your own fault.

Because removing a bullet will not result in the destruction of another human life.

The fetus is committing a crime by going against the mother's bodily sovereignty. Explain why it's no worse than the bullet.

[Raeyh]

If you do, can I watch?

Nope, you have to participate.

Because removing a bullet will not result in the destruction of another human life.

I suppose it's futile to ask for a source on that one...

It would be easier to provide the source of bullet operation that did result in the loss of another human life. Which I don't think ever happened, anyway.

The fetus is committing a crime by going against the mother's bodily sovereignty. Explain why it's no worse than the bullet.

Bullets can exist outside of the body. The fetus will be destroyed if it is removed.

[Episarta]

Pro-choice. The only time I don't think a woman should have the right to choose is when the foetus is completely defective (i.e. has almost no chance of survival)

Why bother wasting time, money, and resources on something that can't even grow to help itself or the rest of society. Seems like a big drain and large waste.

But other than that situation, I feel a woman should pretty much always have the right to choose.

[New Emperica]

Though I'm a 'liberal', bordering on 'socialist' on nearly every other front, abortion is where I break away - I'm pro-life, unless the mother's life is in danger.

[Oibrithe (Ancient)]

Because removing a bullet will not result in the destruction of another human life.

The fetus is committing a crime by going against the mother's bodily sovereignty. Explain why it's no worse than the bullet.

Well, only human beings can commit crimes, which a fetus is, so I'm glad we can agree there. Obviously, if someone is committing a crime, they should be brought to trial by jury and prosecuted, not killed by a vigilante doctor.

Though I suppose there might be some age restrictions on who can commit crimes.

[Northern Dominus]

Nope, you have to participate.

I suppose it's futile to ask for a source on that one...

It would be easier to provide the source of bullet operation that did result in the loss of another human life. Which I don't think ever happened, anyway.

Except you were the one that made the claim first, stating that surgical abortion is tantamount to surgical murder.

Where's the source of this wisdom that you hold exactly?

[Raeyh]

It would be easier to provide the source of bullet operation that did result in the loss of another human life. Which I don't think ever happened, anyway.

Except you were the one that made the claim first, stating that surgical abortion is tantamount to surgical murder.

Where's the source of this wisdom that you hold exactly?

The purpose of abortion is to end the life of a child. It's the whole point of the surgery. Why else would someone have an abortion?

[Northern Dominus]

Except you were the one that made the claim first, stating that surgical abortion is tantamount to surgical murder.

Where's the source of this wisdom that you hold exactly?

The purpose of abortion is to end the life of a child. It's the whole point of the surgery. Why else would someone have an abortion?

When exactly did a collection of cells dependent on a woman's body become a child? By your parallel then cancerous tumors count as children.

[Raeyh]

The purpose of abortion is to end the life of a child. It's the whole point of the surgery. Why else would someone have an abortion?

When exactly did a collection of cells dependent on a woman's body become a child? By your parallel then cancerous tumors count as children.

But cancerous tumors aren't children. Nobody gave birth to a baby which turned out to be cancerous tumor when it was in her body.

[Oibrithe (Ancient)]

The purpose of abortion is to end the life of a child. It's the whole point of the surgery. Why else would someone have an abortion?

When exactly did a collection of cells dependent on a woman's body become a child? By your parallel then cancerous tumors count as children.

Well, "child" is just a developmental term for a human that has not reached adulthood (or adolescence, depending upon the definition). Any lifeform is just "a collection of cells." Scientifically, a human being is a distinct lifeform with the DNA of Homo Sapiens. The embryo/fetus (just more developmental terms) is a distinct lifeform with its own human DNA, unlike a tumor (the same DNA as the host, not a distinct and developing human), so the comparison is false.

[Samuraikoku]

But cancerous tumors aren't children. Nobody gave birth to a baby which turned out to be cancerous tumor when it was in her body.

You may consider foetuses as babies, but embryos sure aren't.

[Oibrithe (Ancient)]

But cancerous tumors aren't children. Nobody gave birth to a baby which turned out to be cancerous tumor when it was in her body.

You may consider foetuses as babies, but embryos sure aren't.

Well, "baby" is generally used as a term for a developmental stage in humans after birth and before the "toddler" stage. Thus, a fetus isn't a baby, but is the developmental stage preceding it. Of course, human embryos/fetuses/babies/toddlers/etc. are, by definition, human, which is what matters for human rights. Not an argument from development (which I more fully addressed in an earlier post).

[Risottia]

My position? Her body, her choice.

[Northern Dominus]

When exactly did a collection of cells dependent on a woman's body become a child? By your parallel then cancerous tumors count as children.

Well, "child" is just a developmental term for a human that has not reached adulthood (or adolescence, depending upon the definition). Any lifeform is just "a collection of cells." Scientifically, a human being is a distinct lifeform with the DNA of Homo Sapiens. The embryo/fetus (just more developmental terms) is a distinct lifeform with its own human DNA, unlike a tumor (the same DNA as the host, not a distinct and developing human), so the comparison is false.

After a certain point maybe, but in the first 6 weeks you'd be hard pressed to really spot the difference between the two. Additionally, neither have been shown to demonstrate any meaningful signs of sapience

[Yuonela]

Pro-choice.

[United Marxist Nations]

I think that it depends on the specific circumstances of the case.

[Ashmoria]

I think that it depends on the specific circumstances of the case.

.....

does that mean that you think that each woman seeking an abortion has to have her circumstances vetted?

[Oibrithe (Ancient)]

Well, "child" is just a developmental term for a human that has not reached adulthood (or adolescence, depending upon the definition). Any lifeform is just "a collection of cells." Scientifically, a human being is a distinct lifeform with the DNA of Homo Sapiens. The embryo/fetus (just more developmental terms) is a distinct lifeform with its own human DNA, unlike a tumor (the same DNA as the host, not a distinct and developing human), so the comparison is false.

After a certain point maybe, but in the first 6 weeks you'd be hard pressed to really spot the difference between the two. Additionally, neither have been shown to demonstrate any meaningful signs of sapience

My subjective ability to distinguish between two things does not impact the scientific validity of a statement. Further, sapience is not necessary for humanity, as intelligence is not a factor in whether or not something is murder. If I kill an adult chimpanzee, I am ending a life with a greater cognitive capacity than a three month old baby, yet the killing of the latter is considered murder, while the former is not. So either potential is valued, or humanity. In either case, the human embryo or fetus qualifies.

[Sevco 5508]

Pro-choice, but mostly just to do my bit in getting the Vatican's back up. *Cue Offended People*

I should note that I have nothing against Catholics, just their church as an organisation.

[United Marxist Nations]

I think that it depends on the specific circumstances of the case.

.....

does that mean that you think that each woman seeking an abortion has to have her circumstances vetted?

No, but I think that if a woman was raped is different than if she is just a complete slut.

[Oibrithe (Ancient)]

Pro-choice, but mostly just to do my bit in getting the Vatican's back up. *Cue Offended People*

I should note that I have nothing against Catholics, just their church as an organisation.

Ah, as can be expected from the fellow using the British flag.

(Not that I'm religious, either, haha.)

[Northern Dominus]

After a certain point maybe, but in the first 6 weeks you'd be hard pressed to really spot the difference between the two. Additionally, neither have been shown to demonstrate any meaningful signs of sapience

My subjective ability to distinguish between two things does not impact the scientific validity of a statement. Further, sapience is not necessary for humanity, as intelligence is not a factor in whether or not something is murder. If I kill an adult chimpanzee, I am ending a life with a greater cognitive capacity than a three month old baby, yet the killing of the latter is considered murder, while the former is not. So either potential is valued, or humanity. In either case, the human embryo or fetus qualifies.

But then by your own notions so do cancerous tumors. Like 6 week old human embryos they too are incapable of sustained existence outside of a human body and both can be recignized at the genetic level as clusters of human cells with substantial differences from the main body.

So are we stopping cancer treatments as well?

[Raeyh]

So are we stopping cancer treatments as well?

I'm sure doctors can tell the diffrence between cancer and a fetus.

[Hamste]

So are we stopping cancer treatments as well?

I'm sure doctors can tell the diffrence between cancer and a fetus.

They can but the cancer and fetus are quite similar if you didn't ignore all the reasons he just said