Stance on Abortion?

[Bokcha]

Taking responsibility would be raising it or giving it to someone else to raise, not murdering it.

And that is how you view your responsibility. I didn't ask you to define my sense of responsibility and I'd prefer you didn't. Killing does not equal murder.

I'm pretty sure killing in cold blood is the exact definition of murder. I would use a dictionary, but apparently only you guys are allowed to use them.

[Bokcha]

Ah. So using a dictionary is only okay if it supports your argument. Gotcha.

Is there a biological definition for responsibility? Please, tell me what it is. It doesn't matter what you say, they are taking responsibility. Get over it.

"Oh-ho-ho! Ees funny because that was my exact argument when I used child!"
Oh, so it's only if the definition is given by a man in a lab coat that it becomes official. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Ceannairceach]

And that is how you view your responsibility. I didn't ask you to define my sense of responsibility and I'd prefer you didn't. Killing does not equal murder.

I'm pretty sure killing in cold blood is the exact definition of murder. I would use a dictionary, but apparently only you guys are allowed to use them.

Wrong. Murder is the illegal killing of a person with malicious afterthought. Abortion is not illegal, fetuses are not people, and there is no malice afterthought. It fails to meet three of the four requirements for the label of murder, and thus, it isn't murder.

[Mavorpen]

And that is how you view your responsibility. I didn't ask you to define my sense of responsibility and I'd prefer you didn't. Killing does not equal murder.

I'm pretty sure killing in cold blood is the exact definition of murder. I would use a dictionary, but apparently only you guys are allowed to use them.

Go ahead, because that's nowhere near the definition.

murder Pronunciation: /ˈməːdə/

Definition of murder
noun
1the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another:
the brutal murder of a German holidaymaker
[mass noun]:
he was put on trial for attempted murder
2 [mass noun] informal a very difficult or unpleasant task or experience:
the 40-mile-per-hour winds at the summit were murder
verb
[with object]
1kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation:
he was accused of murdering his wife’s lover

[Desperate Measures]

And that should end the argument. But it won't.

No, what should have ended it was Vlad's post proving that making abortion illegal does not work. But no, they always move the goal post and shift the topic.

And now that you brought that back up, you should have ended the argument. Again. You're good at this.

[Bokcha]

You are willingly putting sperm in your body. How is that without your consent? You can't pick and choose.

You are willingly driving. How is that without your consent? You can't pick and choose.

Because I didn't choose to get rammed into. You did choose to let a guy fill you with sperm.

[The Darwinian People]

When did I imply that you said that? Your argument was that it's okay for a women to have an abortion because she 'didn't consent to having the foetus'. All I am saying is that it doesn't matter whether or not she consented, she did something knowing that pregnancy was a likely consequence.

You made an analogy implying I believe that other people should make the choice for the mother, when I never hinted that.

As this thread is testimony to; making an analogy about abortion is really difficult. I was contemplating making an analogy about putting worm eggs under your arm (because, yes, people do that) and then killing them a few days later when you longer 'consented' to having them inside of you, but that is still a poor analogy.

Anyway, you skirting around the issue. I'll repeat; All I am saying is that it doesn't matter whether or not she consented, she did something knowing that pregnancy was a likely consequence.

[Monlyth]

And that is how you view your responsibility. I didn't ask you to define my sense of responsibility and I'd prefer you didn't. Killing does not equal murder.

I'm pretty sure killing in cold blood is the exact definition of murder. I would use a dictionary, but apparently only you guys are allowed to use them.

Well, here's my definition
mur·der (mûrdr)
1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
2. Slang Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder.
1. To kill (another human) unlawfully.
2. To kill brutally or inhumanly.
3. To put an end to; destroy: murdered their chances.
4. To spoil by ineptness; mutilate: a speech that murdered the English language.
5. (also Slang) To defeat decisively; trounce.

[Mavorpen]

"Oh-ho-ho! Ees funny because that was my exact argument when I used child!"
Oh, so it's only if the definition is given by a man in a lab coat that it becomes official. Thanks for clearing that up.

No. If the word has a scientific definition, it trumps the vernacular definition. It's like using the word "animal," and arguing humans aren't animals. Biologically, yes we are.

[Bokcha]

I'm done with this. It's clear neither party is going to change the other's mind.

[Mavorpen]

Because I didn't choose to get rammed into. You did choose to let a guy fill you with sperm.

Because I didn't choose to get pregnant. You did choose to let other people drive around you, potentially hitting you.

[Desperate Measures]

And that is how you view your responsibility. I didn't ask you to define my sense of responsibility and I'd prefer you didn't. Killing does not equal murder.

I'm pretty sure killing in cold blood is the exact definition of murder. I would use a dictionary, but apparently only you guys are allowed to use them.

So soldiers are murdering other soldiers and are going to hell for it. Executioners are murdering criminals. By your definition, if a human dies by the hand of another human, it is murder.

[Ceannairceach]

You are willingly driving. How is that without your consent? You can't pick and choose.

Because I didn't choose to get rammed into. You did choose to let a guy fill you with sperm.

Rather, according to your failed logic, you consented to the idea of being rammed by someone.

In reality, however, you consented neither to be rammed by a vehicle nor to be pregnant. Such consent is separate from consenting to the act of driving or fucking.

[Bokcha]

Thanks for the discussion, even if we didn't see eye-to-eye. I enjoy debates.

[Mavorpen]

I'm done with this. It's clear neither party is going to change the other's mind.

Indeed. One side uses worthless emotional arguments, the other uses facts. You're on the emotional side, in case you didn't now.

[Bokcha]

I'm pretty sure killing in cold blood is the exact definition of murder. I would use a dictionary, but apparently only you guys are allowed to use them.

So soldiers are murdering other soldiers and are going to hell for it. Executioners are murdering criminals. By your definition, if a human dies by the hand of another human, it is murder.

I don't believe in Hell.
"In cold blood" implies that the victim did nothing wrong, which applies to none of your examples.

Good day.

[Desperate Measures]

I'm done with this. It's clear neither party is going to change the other's mind.

I'm not even trying to change your mind. You can think however you like and feel about abortion however you want. I'm just trying to show you that you have no right to control what I do with my body or what anybody else does with theirs.

[Bokcha]

I'm done with this. It's clear neither party is going to change the other's mind.

Indeed. One side uses worthless emotional arguments, the other uses facts. You're on the emotional side, in case you didn't now.

Yeah, okay. The one who takes responsibility for getting filled with sperm is an emotional nutjob that doesn't use logic.
Way to end the discussion maturely.
Good day.

[The Darwinian People]

I'm done with this. It's clear neither party is going to change the other's mind.

Indeed. One side uses worthless emotional arguments, the other uses facts. You're on the emotional side, in case you didn't now.

I am fairly sure that all of crimes would cease to be crime if we refuse to count emotionality when discussing them.

[Mavorpen]

I am fairly sure that all of crimes would cease to be crime if we refuse to count emotionality when discussing them.

Not at all.

[Desperate Measures]

So soldiers are murdering other soldiers and are going to hell for it. Executioners are murdering criminals. By your definition, if a human dies by the hand of another human, it is murder.

I don't believe in Hell.
"In cold blood" implies that the victim did nothing wrong, which applies to none of your examples.

Good day.

What victim? It's victimless. The fetus can't do anything wrong. It also can't do anything right. It is a good day.

[Ifreann]

If you think your tax money is paying for anything directly then you're very mistaken. It would have to first go to whoever collects taxes, then it would be pooled with the other tax intake, then some or all of it would go to whatever part of the government deals with healthcare, where it would be pooled and divvied up again, then to some subordinate agency, pooled and divvied up again, then to some hospital or medical centre, pooled and divvied up again, at which point it would be paid out for the equipment, personally or other overheads associated with providing abortion services for that financial year. Or something loosely along those lines, I'm not an accountant.

Of course, if you're American I believe that's all moot, since AFAIK it's illegal for tax money there to fund abortions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_Parenthood
Do your research.

I did. I found this. Seems I was right.

---

Okay, stop. Just stop. Those things are illegal because they directly break bodily sovereignty, property rights, etc. So stop with the false dichotomies.

Killing someone doesn't break bodily sovereignty?

These things happen when rights come into conflict. A foetus cannot inflict itself upon another person's body without their consent, no more than you or I. It does not have that right. Therefore, if its rights can be ignored in rectifying the situation.

---

No I'm not. That's why I think they should get an abortion. They're taking responsibility for an accident.

Taking responsibility would be raising it or giving it to someone else to raise, not murdering it.

Seems to me the responsible thing to do when you don't want to be pregnant is to terminate the pregnancy.

---

And that is how you view your responsibility. I didn't ask you to define my sense of responsibility and I'd prefer you didn't. Killing does not equal murder.

I'm pretty sure killing in cold blood is the exact definition of murder. I would use a dictionary, but apparently only you guys are allowed to use them.

Murder is a legal term. The exact definition, naturally, varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but I doubt 'cold blood' is involved at all.

[The warewolf order]

Considering that one of the hot topic amongst religious and political folk is the idea of abortion, what does the NationStates community think about it? Are you Pro-Choice or Pro-Life? Also, why?

For myself, I'm very Pro-Choice. Women who are raped would almost always want to get rid of the child. For obvious reasons. But not just that. If a woman can't financially support the child for example. Rather than bring a child into this world who will spend all his/her time starving or living miserably with his/her parents also living miserably, why not alleviate the problem from happening in the first place? Same with really severe mental defects like if the child is born with an incurable disease or mental defect that keeps them from performing basic human functions.

Congrats you are the 100th person to make a thread about this!

[Raeyh]

In reality, however, you consented neither to be rammed by a vehicle nor to be pregnant. Such consent is separate from consenting to the act of driving or fucking.

If you turn the key, you consent to burn gasoline.

Abortion is like trying to stop the gasoline from being burned after you start driving.

A car accident is not something that is expected to happen, while pregnancy is the expected result of sex.

[Ceannairceach]

Indeed. One side uses worthless emotional arguments, the other uses facts. You're on the emotional side, in case you didn't now.

I am fairly sure that all of crimes would cease to be crime if we refuse to count emotionality when discussing them.

I disagree. The total absence of emotion is necessary to decide if a crime truly happened, and then again to ensure fair justice is applied.