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Stance on Abortion?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Stance on Abortion

Pro-Choice (For Abortion)
503
65%
Pro-Life (Against Abortion)
203
26%
Neither/Other (Explain Below)
69
9%
 
Total votes : 775

User avatar
Nordengrund
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7531
Founded: Jun 20, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Nordengrund » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:57 pm

Indira wrote:
Nordengrund wrote:This is my comeback:

It should be forbidden because America was not intended to be a democracy, but rather a republic.

America is a Constitutional Republic . . . NOT a Democracy

By Daneen G. Peterson, Ph.D.
Speech Given September 9, 2006 in Salt Lake City, Utah

How often have you heard people refer to America as a Democracy? When was the last time that you heard America referred to as a Republic? There is a very good reason that our Pledge of Allegiance refers to our country as a Republic and there is a very good reason that our Declaration of Independence and our constitution do not even mentioned the word "democracy".

Many people are under the false impression our form of government is a democracy, or representative democracy. This is of course completely untrue. The Founders were extremely knowledgeable about the issue of democracy and feared a democracy as much as a monarchy. They understood that the only entity that can take away the people's freedom is their own government, either by being too weak to protect them from external threats or by becoming too powerful and taking over every aspect of life.

They knew very well the meaning of the word "democracy", and the history of democracies; and they were deliberately doing everything in their power to prevent having a democracy.

In a Republic, the sovereignty resides with the people themselves. In a Republic, one may act on his own or through his representatives when he chooses to solve a problem. The people have no obligation to the government; instead, the government is a servant of the people, and obliged to its owner, We the People. Many politicians have lost sight of that fact.

A Constitutional Republic has some similarities to democracy in that it uses democratic processes to elect representatives and pass new laws, etc. The critical difference lies in the fact that a Constitutional Republic has a Constitution that limits the powers of the government. It also spells out how the government is structured, creating checks on its power and balancing power between the different branches.

The goal of a Constitutional Republic was to avoid the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy but what exists in America today is a far cry from the Constitutional Republic our forefathers brought forth.

Today we have DO have a mobocracy occurring in our streets all across America. Sadly, such mobocracy or 'mob rule' was endorsed and encouraged by Sen. John McCain who praised the recent wave of pro-illegal immigration demonstrations by saying . . . "if the protesters hang tough they will succeed in forcing Congress to liberalize immigration laws. If such demonstrations continue, I think we will have a bill for the President to sign soon . . . The more debate, the more demonstrations, the more likely we will prevail.' He was of course referring to the Senate's massive illegal-alien amnesty bill S. 2611 which did in fact, pass. Was S. 2611 passed to appease the mob? If so, it is a perfect example of rule by mobocracy!

Article IV Section 4 of the Constitution states: "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion . . .

Not only is our Constitution being ignored, the exact OPPOSITE is being encourage by John McCain and seconded by ALL those who voted for S. 2611 in the Senate. If you want to preserve the Constitutional Republic you should vote out of office . . . every single senator that voted for S. 2611.


Repeating something over and over doesn't give it any more credibility. Furthermore, a country can be both a democracy and a republic and whether you like it or not, it fit EXACTLY with what the founding fathers were after. (What happened to 'No taxation without representation?) And as this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, take it somewhere relevant


Yeah, and us religious folk and pro- life people do not get as much representation in the government, so should they not be taxed?
1 John 1:9

User avatar
Samuraikoku
Post Czar
 
Posts: 31947
Founded: May 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Samuraikoku » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:58 pm

Raeyh wrote:If I spot it before I, you know, go insane.


Can't you go get tested if you don't feel right?

User avatar
Seperates
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14622
Founded: Sep 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Seperates » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:59 pm

Samuraikoku wrote:
Raeyh wrote:If I spot it before I, you know, go insane.


Can't you go get tested if you don't feel right?

That would explain why he is all about prevention and avoiding any and all risks.

Poor bloke doesn't like doctors.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69785
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:59 pm

Nordengrund wrote:
Indira wrote:
Repeating something over and over doesn't give it any more credibility. Furthermore, a country can be both a democracy and a republic and whether you like it or not, it fit EXACTLY with what the founding fathers were after. (What happened to 'No taxation without representation?) And as this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, take it somewhere relevant


Yeah, and us religious folk and pro- life people do not get as much representation in the government, so should they not be taxed?

Are you for real?
Anarcho-Communist, Democratic Confederalist
"The Earth isn't dying, it's being killed. And those killing it have names and addresses." -Utah Phillips

User avatar
Nordengrund
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7531
Founded: Jun 20, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Nordengrund » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:59 pm

Phing Phong wrote:
Nordengrund wrote:Cells are living things, a fetus is made of cells, therefore fetus is alive, which means it is murder to abort it, which means it is a human being, the Constitution says everyone is guaranteed life, liberty, and a pursuit of happiness, therefore the unborn baby is a living thing, a human being, and is guaranteed life under the Constitution.


Cabbages are living things, a salad is made of cabbage, therefore a salad is alive, which means it is murder to consume it, which means it is a human being, the Constitution says everyone is guaranteed life, liberty, and a pursuit of happiness, therefore cabbage is a living thing, a human being, and is guaranteed life under the Constitution.

This logic is piss-poor.


A fetus has a brain (even if it is not fully developed, it is still a brain), the nucleus is not really a brain but acts like one, but it is still considered alive. A cabbage has no brain or anything that acts as its command center, therefore cutting cabbage is not murder.
1 John 1:9

User avatar
Des-Bal
Post Czar
 
Posts: 32063
Founded: Jan 24, 2010
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Des-Bal » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:59 pm

Raeyh wrote:If I spot it before I, you know, go insane.

If I had an incurable paper cut, maybe.


If you ignore the fact you're covered in chancres long enough to develop neurosyphilis the gene pool won't miss you.
Cekoviu wrote:DES-BAL: Introverted, blunt, focused, utilitarian. Hard to read; not verbose online or likely in real life. Places little emphasis on interpersonal relationships, particularly with online strangers for whom the investment would outweigh the returns.
Desired perception: Logical, intellectual
Public perception: Neutral-positive - blunt, cold, logical, skilled at debating
Mindset: Logos

User avatar
Samuraikoku
Post Czar
 
Posts: 31947
Founded: May 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Samuraikoku » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:00 pm

Nordengrund wrote:A fetus has a brain (even if it is not fully developed, it is still a brain), the nucleus is not really a brain but acts like one, but it is still considered alive. A cabbage has no brain or anything that acts as its command center, therefore cutting cabbage is not murder.


No? Then how do cabbages grow?

User avatar
Seperates
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14622
Founded: Sep 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Seperates » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:00 pm

Nordengrund wrote:
Indira wrote:
Repeating something over and over doesn't give it any more credibility. Furthermore, a country can be both a democracy and a republic and whether you like it or not, it fit EXACTLY with what the founding fathers were after. (What happened to 'No taxation without representation?) And as this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, take it somewhere relevant


Yeah, and us religious folk and pro- life people do not get as much representation in the government, so should they not be taxed?

There is a MORMON running for presidency and you say that? :rofl:
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

User avatar
Indira
Minister
 
Posts: 3339
Founded: Feb 02, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Indira » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:01 pm

Repeating something over and over doesn't give it any more credibility. Furthermore, a country can be both a democracy and a republic and whether you like it or not, it fit EXACTLY with what the founding fathers were after. (What happened to 'No taxation without representation?) And as this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, take it somewhere relevant[/quote]

Yeah, and us religious folk and pro- life people do not get as much representation in the government, so should they not be taxed?[/quote]

Ah but your vote counts as much as the next person, so it's not without representation. And as the religious right have a damn loud voice in America, the opposite is probably true

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69785
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:02 pm

Seperates wrote:
Nordengrund wrote:
Yeah, and us religious folk and pro- life people do not get as much representation in the government, so should they not be taxed?

There is a MORMON running for presidency and you say that? :rofl:

Dishonesty helps.
Anarcho-Communist, Democratic Confederalist
"The Earth isn't dying, it's being killed. And those killing it have names and addresses." -Utah Phillips

User avatar
Katganistan
Senior Game Moderator
 
Posts: 35947
Founded: Antiquity
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Katganistan » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:03 pm

Nordengrund wrote:Fine, I will leave, but I hope you come to realize how barbaric taking away someone's life because you do not want to give birth to them is.

DEFINITION:
Civilized: To lead out of barbaric and savage practices.

Obviously abortion is barbaric because it is uncivilized to kill.


Circular arguments work because circular arguments work because.....

User avatar
Nordengrund
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7531
Founded: Jun 20, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Nordengrund » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:03 pm

Samuraikoku wrote:
Nordengrund wrote:A fetus has a brain (even if it is not fully developed, it is still a brain), the nucleus is not really a brain but acts like one, but it is still considered alive. A cabbage has no brain or anything that acts as its command center, therefore cutting cabbage is not murder.


No? Then how do cabbages grow?


They are alive, I never said they were not. Cabbages have no brain or command center, so they cannot make decisions. All living things grow, even that fetus you say is not alive grows. If it is not alive, then how does it grow?
1 John 1:9

User avatar
Seperates
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14622
Founded: Sep 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Seperates » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:06 pm

Nordengrund wrote:
Samuraikoku wrote:
No? Then how do cabbages grow?


They are alive, I never said they were not. Cabbages have no brain or command center, so they cannot make decisions. All living things grow, even that fetus you say is not alive grows. If it is not alive, then how does it grow?

A fetus doesn't really develop any brain function until third trimester... And even then, it is more reactionary than anything else.

And a nucleus does not act like a brain, at all. All it does it contain the DNA.
Last edited by Seperates on Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

User avatar
Samuraikoku
Post Czar
 
Posts: 31947
Founded: May 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Samuraikoku » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:08 pm

Nordengrund wrote:They are alive, I never said they were not. Cabbages have no brain or command center, so they cannot make decisions. All living things grow, even that fetus you say is not alive grows. If it is not alive, then how does it grow?


Missing the point, possibly on purpose.

Cabbages have no brain or command center, so they cannot make decisions.


Not a brain, but how do they grow if there's nothing that makes them?

All living things grow, even that fetus you say is not alive grows. If it is not alive, then how does it grow?


Because it needs the mother to grow.

User avatar
Katganistan
Senior Game Moderator
 
Posts: 35947
Founded: Antiquity
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Katganistan » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:08 pm

Raeyh wrote:
Deus Malum wrote:Not sure what you mean by "most." HIV and Herpes are still incurable, though the symptoms of both are treatable, and other diseases like chlamydia, gonorrhea, and syphilis continue to be treatable, often WITH penicilin, to this day.


I've heard that they are becoming more and more immune by the passing moment. It's like the common cold, you just can't do anything about it.

Ed.u.cate. your.self.

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Of the Free Socialist Territories
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8370
Founded: Feb 12, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:09 pm

Katganistan wrote:
Raeyh wrote:
I've heard that they are becoming more and more immune by the passing moment. It's like the common cold, you just can't do anything about it.

Ed.u.cate. your.self.


We've tried so hard to help. :(
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

User avatar
Nordengrund
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7531
Founded: Jun 20, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Nordengrund » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:09 pm

Samuraikoku wrote:
Nordengrund wrote:They are alive, I never said they were not. Cabbages have no brain or command center, so they cannot make decisions. All living things grow, even that fetus you say is not alive grows. If it is not alive, then how does it grow?


Missing the point, possibly on purpose.

Cabbages have no brain or command center, so they cannot make decisions.


Not a brain, but how do they grow if there's nothing that makes them?

The Seed.
1 John 1:9

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Katganistan
Senior Game Moderator
 
Posts: 35947
Founded: Antiquity
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Katganistan » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:10 pm

Raeyh wrote:
Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
That's not equivalent.

STD's are sorting themselves out through natural selection and resistance.

Over 200 viruses are linked to the common cold.


Wait, is the common cold a bacteria or a virus?

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/commonc ... cause.aspx

User avatar
Of the Free Socialist Territories
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8370
Founded: Feb 12, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:10 pm

Nidaria wrote:
Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
:rofl:

Source that humans have souls? Not the Bible, please.

Source that they do not? I would prefer the word of God Himself over that of a fringe group.


Burden of proof. I am not asserting that there is no soul, I'm asking you to prove the existence of the soul with a secular source, i.e. not the Bible.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

User avatar
Samuraikoku
Post Czar
 
Posts: 31947
Founded: May 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Samuraikoku » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:12 pm


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Katganistan
Senior Game Moderator
 
Posts: 35947
Founded: Antiquity
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Katganistan » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:13 pm

Raeyh wrote:Read up on Roe vs Wade. The safety of the mother is the only reason why abortion is allowed.

This was disproved before. Your insisting it's so does not make it real.

User avatar
Des-Bal
Post Czar
 
Posts: 32063
Founded: Jan 24, 2010
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Des-Bal » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:13 pm

Nordengrund wrote:
A fetus has a brain (even if it is not fully developed, it is still a brain), the nucleus is not really a brain but acts like one, but it is still considered alive. A cabbage has no brain or anything that acts as its command center, therefore cutting cabbage is not murder.


Cells have nuclei killing a cell isn't a crime. Your entire argument revolves around not understanding biology.
Cekoviu wrote:DES-BAL: Introverted, blunt, focused, utilitarian. Hard to read; not verbose online or likely in real life. Places little emphasis on interpersonal relationships, particularly with online strangers for whom the investment would outweigh the returns.
Desired perception: Logical, intellectual
Public perception: Neutral-positive - blunt, cold, logical, skilled at debating
Mindset: Logos

User avatar
Individualist Constructivism
Envoy
 
Posts: 312
Founded: Aug 07, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Individualist Constructivism » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:13 pm

I am pro-choice until the point of birth. Ethically, I believe the decision to bring a baby into the world or not is inherently the mother's right, being that the baby is a part of her own body and as such is an extension of her own bodily rights; rights that cannot be ignored.
When debating your opponent, remember: without many of his views, many more of yours would not exist.


In philosophy, one must be right in order to be successful. In politics, one must be successful in order to be right.
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Individdi Comstiputia, you make too many complicated threads with big words.

User avatar
Seperates
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14622
Founded: Sep 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Seperates » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:14 pm

Samuraikoku wrote:
Nordengrund wrote:The Seed.


http://hcs.osu.edu/hcs300/cell1.htm

Dear Sweet Baby Cthulu it's AP Bio all over again...
Last edited by Seperates on Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

User avatar
Katganistan
Senior Game Moderator
 
Posts: 35947
Founded: Antiquity
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Katganistan » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:15 pm

Raeyh wrote:People get abortions because they are afraid they might die in child birth.

Or can't afford children. Or have too many children. Or don't WANT children. Don't make stupid blanket statements.

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