Are transgenders Gay?

[Samuraikoku]

They are what they claim to be, they like who they claim they like.

[Freedom Ring]

Someone who identifies as female whether or not they have actually done the surgery is still female, while someone who identifies as male is male whether or not they have done the surgery. If someone who identifies as female is attracted to females then yes they are homosexual. If, however they are attracted to males then they are heterosexual.

Which means if two men who appear totally male, are genetically totally male, and were born totally male they can have lesbian sex.

Yeah, Neutraligion doesn't get my point. He fails to see the anatomical and physiological difference between males and females. I really don't feel like educating him right now, maybe I can find a link to some online human biology encyclopedia.

[Grenartia]

If he's already realized he's been proven wrong, but is just sticking to his argument to keep from having to admit he's wrong, I'd respect him a hell of a lot more if he would just admit that he's been proven wrong.

My point's already been proven. The only argument against my position is that my terms are unfair and restrictive however now that the truth comes out the only system that's going to make everybody happy is the elimination of gender altogether. So if we don't view anyone as male, female, or anything in between how the hell do we organize those public services those bathrooms that politicians are terrorizing everybody to death? How do we recognize sexuality? 1.The entire thing is absurd, by this logic unless you romantically pursue both males and females and cannot differentiate between the two you are just as bigoted as you're accusing me to be. 2.There are boxes, that's human nature everything has a classification everything has a criteria. 3. Going by genetics is clear-cut it's simple it prevents deciding a man who identifies as a man and was born a man with a soft jawline is a woman. 4. It prevents deciding two natural born men penises and all can have lesbian sex. Why is my way best? Because it's not fucking absurd.

1. lolwut?

2. I won't deny that. But, when those boxes are so rigidly defined as you want them to be, you end up needing to put a lot of people in a Misc. box, which tends to be dehumanizing.

3. Except, you know, we've already proven how genetics isn't as clear cut as you think it is.
Going by genetics also prevents a phenotypical female who identifies as a heterosexual female from engaging in sexual/romantic relationships with genotypical and phenotypical males who identify as heterosexual males. Instead, both are classified as homosexual.

4. No. It prevents two Gt/Pt (genotypical/phenotypical) males who identify as homosexual/bisexual/pansexual females from having a lesbian relationship. Your system IS fucking absurd because it prevents two females from having lesbian sex.

Someone who identifies as female whether or not they have actually done the surgery is still female, while someone who identifies as male is male whether or not they have done the surgery. If someone who identifies as female is attracted to females then yes they are homosexual. If, however they are attracted to males then they are heterosexual.

Which means if two men who appear totally male, are genetically totally male, and were born totally male they can have lesbian sex.

Most likely, they will be on feminizing hormones, dress either feminine or androgynous, and will essentially carry themselves as female or androgynous, with those last two depending on how well they can pass.

So, they don't appear totally male. Your logic is fucking flawed. Admit it. Use this experience, and learn from it.

[Des-Bal]

Most likely, they will be on feminizing hormones, dress either feminine or androgynous, and will essentially carry themselves as female or androgynous, with those last two depending on how well they can pass.

So, they don't appear totally male. Your logic is fucking flawed. Admit it. Use this experience, and learn from it.

No no no no, you said that gender is what they feel not what they look like.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Most likely, they will be on feminizing hormones, dress either feminine or androgynous, and will essentially carry themselves as female or androgynous, with those last two depending on how well they can pass.

So, they don't appear totally male. Your logic is fucking flawed. Admit it. Use this experience, and learn from it.

No no no no, you said that gender is what they feel not what they look like.

Which is true, that's correct, yes.

[Des-Bal]

Which is true, that's correct, yes.

So those two men who are in no way feminine and are male in every sense except their feelings totally just had lesbian sex.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Which is true, that's correct, yes.

So those two men who are in no way feminine and are male in every sense except their feelings totally just had lesbian sex.

If they identified as female, then yes, two women who were born in a male body had lesbian sex.

Gender's psychological, sex is physiological. This isn't a hard concept to grasp, and it's introduced in every basic psychology course.

[Des-Bal]

If they identified as female, then yes, two women who were born in a male body had lesbian sex.

Gender's psychological, sex is physiological. This isn't a hard concept to grasp, and it's introduced in every basic psychology course.

I'm not saying I don't grasp it I'm saying it's bullshit. I match sexuality to the sex you were born because I say again the alternative is fucking absurd.

[The Steel Magnolia]

If they identified as female, then yes, two women who were born in a male body had lesbian sex.

Gender's psychological, sex is physiological. This isn't a hard concept to grasp, and it's introduced in every basic psychology course.

I'm not saying I don't grasp it I'm saying it's bullshit. I match sexuality to the sex you were born because I say again the alternative is fucking absurd.

Yeah, um, and are you a psychologist? Because otherwise I'm going to go with what the norm has been for the past 40 years or so.


I don't care if you think it's stupid. I think a lot of things are stupid. That doesn't make them wrong.

[Des-Bal]

Yeah, um, and are you a psychologist? Because otherwise I'm going to go with what the norm has been for the past 40 years or so.


I don't care if you think it's stupid. I think a lot of things are stupid. That doesn't make them wrong.

I don't need to be? I'm not saying that the fact two men can engage in lesbian sex proves the system your championing is completely and irredeemably fucked.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Yeah, um, and are you a psychologist? Because otherwise I'm going to go with what the norm has been for the past 40 years or so.


I don't care if you think it's stupid. I think a lot of things are stupid. That doesn't make them wrong.

I don't need to be? I'm not saying that the fact two men can engage in lesbian sex proves the system your championing is completely and irredeemably fucked.

Good for you! You're completely and totally wrong, but hey, at least you have an opinion!

Besides, they'd be born in a male body, but sex is subservient to gender identity, seeing as gender identity is, y'know, one's identity.

[Des-Bal]

Good for you! You're completely and totally wrong, but hey, at least you have an opinion!

Besides, they'd be born in a male body, but sex is subservient to gender identity, seeing as gender identity is, y'know, one's identity.

So it seems like the difference here is your standard for bullshit. I posit and I can't imagine I'm alone, that this is quite clearly a failure of your system either way as I said before I've proved my point.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Good for you! You're completely and totally wrong, but hey, at least you have an opinion!

Besides, they'd be born in a male body, but sex is subservient to gender identity, seeing as gender identity is, y'know, one's identity.

So it seems like the difference here is your standard for bullshit. I posit and I can't imagine I'm alone, that this is quite clearly a failure of your system either way as I said before I've proved my point.

Except you've yet to prove your point, and ''my'' system is backed up by pretty much every single reputable health care professional and psychologist. I'll take my chances.

[Freedom Ring]

So those two men who are in no way feminine and are male in every sense except their feelings totally just had lesbian sex.

If they identified as female, then yes, two women who were born in a male body had lesbian sex.

Gender's psychological, sex is physiological. This isn't a hard concept to grasp, and it's introduced in every basic psychology course.

LOL
That was a funny response.
You don't have to justify transgender people by saying that they are not transexuals, but rather people who were "borne in the wrong body."

Instead just accept the fact that they want to be a different gender. I believe people should have the right to choose what gender they want to be. To argue that transsexuals were borne in "the wrong body" would be an argument against the fact that some people want to change their gender.
I myself wish I could shape shift into any species and gender I want to, the change back but because that's impossible (maybe possible in the far future) I choose to remain a human male.

As for the thing about the gender and sex here are the difference between gender and sex, you are right. However one's sexual orientation is determined by their sex, and their sexual preference.

If it was about gender it would be called genderorientation, but its not its called sexual orientation.

So I conclude that some transsexuals are homosexual as well, and it is perfectly okay for them to be whoever they want to be.

[Des-Bal]

Except you've yet to prove your point, and ''my'' system is backed up by pretty much every single reputable health care professional and psychologist. I'll take my chances.

My point is your system is severely flawed I'd like to see how many healthcare professionals and psychologists would be willing to come forward and say that two dudes can be lesbians together.

[The Steel Magnolia]

So you've no idea what the difference between sex and gender are, gotcha.

This is basic. Shit. Seriously. It's a fundamental part of standard gender theory since the 70s and 80s.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Except you've yet to prove your point, and ''my'' system is backed up by pretty much every single reputable health care professional and psychologist. I'll take my chances.

My point is your system is severely flawed I'd like to see how many healthcare professionals and psychologists would be willing to come forward and say that two dudes can be lesbians together.

Seeing as they're not two dudes, I'm sure most would agree.

[Des-Bal]

Seeing as they're not two dudes, I'm sure most would agree.

I would very much enjoy seeing that.

[Neutraligon]

If they identified as female, then yes, two women who were born in a male body had lesbian sex.

Gender's psychological, sex is physiological. This isn't a hard concept to grasp, and it's introduced in every basic psychology course.

LOL
That was a funny response.
You don't have to justify transgender people by saying that they are not transexuals, but rather people who were "borne in the wrong body."

Instead just accept the fact that they want to be a different gender. I believe people should have the right to choose what gender they want to be. To argue that transsexuals were borne in "the wrong body" would be an argument against the fact that some people want to change their gender.
I myself wish I could shape shift into any species and gender I want to, the change back but because that's impossible (maybe possible in the far future) I choose to remain a human male.

As for the thing about the gender and sex here are the difference between gender and sex, you are right. However one's sexual orientation is determined by their sex, and their sexual preference.

If it was about gender it would be called genderorientation, but its not its called sexual orientation.

So I conclude that some transsexuals are homosexual as well, and it is perfectly okay for them to be whoever they want to be.

Huh they don't want to change their gender a person who is born in a male body but identifies as female does not change their gender, they change how their physical body looks.. And no sexual orientation is not determined by sex, what your sexual orientation is called is determined by gender and preference (as in homo vs heterosexual and everything else) Who you are attracted to is not in any way determined by your physical body type.

[Grenartia]

Most likely, they will be on feminizing hormones, dress either feminine or androgynous, and will essentially carry themselves as female or androgynous, with those last two depending on how well they can pass.

So, they don't appear totally male. Your logic is fucking flawed. Admit it. Use this experience, and learn from it.

No no no no, you said that gender is what they feel not what they look like.

It is what you feel. But, their gender expression (i.e., how they express their gender identity) is generally female or androgynous.

[Des-Bal]

It is what you feel. But, their gender expression (i.e., how they express their gender identity) is generally female or androgynous.

Generally. I'm saying if these two men who were born as, appear to be, are genetically, and behave as men but identify as female have sex with each other are they having lesbian sex.

[Grenartia]

It is what you feel. But, their gender expression (i.e., how they express their gender identity) is generally female or androgynous.

Generally. I'm saying if these two men who were born as, appear to be, are genetically, and behave as men but identify as female have sex with each other are they having lesbian sex.

How are they behaving and appearing as men if their gender identity and expression is female?

[Des-Bal]

How are they behaving as men if their gender identity and expression is female?

They're crushing beer cans on their foreheads scratching themselves in public and talking about cars. Their doing whatever the hell it takes to meet your standard of male expression.

[Grenartia]

How are they behaving as men if their gender identity and expression is female?

They're crushing beer cans on their foreheads scratching themselves in public and talking about cars. Their doing whatever the hell it takes to meet your standard of male expression.

What?

You've just demonstrated that you have no fucking concept of what it is you're talking about.

I can't think of a single MtF I know of who fits that description.

EDIT: Which is most likely because they don't have a male gender expression. They have a FEMALE gender expression.

[Neutraligon]

I actually have a question, a transgender is someone who identifies as the opposite gender right, meaning they identify as the stereotypical opposite gender. Or is the issue also with their own biological sex as well (hence why some transgender change their body...or is this transsexual)? If at some point gender roles where removed, would transgender still exist?

(I think I need the gingerbread graphic again)