Are transgenders Gay?

[Grenartia]

Yeah they can decide they're own gender. I decide how I perceive them.

You can always tell the difference between a MTF and a female, a FTM and a Male?

Gives me an interesting idea for a threadjack. [/joke]

Internally, maybe you can make that argument. You sure as hell can't the instant you voice it.

So you're saying the fact that I've voiced my opinion has caused someone to hate?

Pretty much, yeah. The thing is, even though its your opinion, and you don't intend it to hurt anybody, once you voice it, you can't control what other people do with it mentally.

"I hate tomato sauce on pizza." becomes "I hate pizza." which turns into "I hate people who have anything to do with pizza." which then becomes "I hate people who make pizza." which finally becomes "I hate Italians."
For anybody who rages at me for saying that, please realize that the statements in quotation marks do NOT reflect my actual views.

That literally never happens ever. I mean, I get that you don't mean to offend, but that's literally never happened.

It doesn't change the fact it's very easilly possible.

No, its not. In order to get SRS, you have to be diagnosed with GID, and any competent psychologist is able to weed out a woman trapped in a man's body from a cisgendered man looking for some sexual kicks. Then, you have to live for at least a year full-time (often, due to financial circumstances, or other, more personal reasons, even longer) as a member of your target gender without SRS.

One does not simply walk into Mordor and demand an immediate sex change.

Honestly I agree about not really caring about made up words, but you could always refer to a genderqueer person as "they", which is the easiest thing to do, and I've never heard of a genderqueer person being offended by that.

I have no problem with that or calling them him or her based on preference but that's about as far as I'm going to go.

Yep!

Is the fact that a man and a woman can have gay sex not making you consider that your definition is fucked?

No. Your definition is fucked because the ''woman'' isn't a woman at all if he identifies as a man.

Nobody changes their sex to make their orientation straight. The only reason anybody gets SRS is to change their body to match their gender.

Please get informed on this subject if you're going to post about it.

Yay for information errors. And using "sex" in place of "gender" is acceptable, common place word substitution, so I am quite amused that you would correct me on that... (?).

And, false. Why would anyone change to align themselves with their "true" gender if it did not relate to their orientation? I don't think a guy that is heterosexual would wish to become a girl so he can still be (at depth) heterosexual, but by definition lesbian. Your logic makes no sense, at all... most likely because I am not the person who needs to be informed on the subject matter. People who receive SRS only do so because, yes, they do want to changes genders... but also so it makes it more appropriate to love the opposite sex of their new sex.

No, it isn't an acceptable substitution.

Sex = between your legs
Gender= between your ears

No. Sexual orientation relates your gender to the gender(s) you're attracted to. Not the other way around.

And when did I say the underlined? If anything, I totally disagreed with that statement. You're essentially claiming I made statements that I didn't actually make.

And what about transwomen (MtFs) who are attracted to other women? (please note that I am not saying that the desire to change sex is because they are attracted to women)

[Des-Bal]

You say that now, and you've said that before, but your attitude and in fact many of your posts (including the one I quoted when I replied to you) imply your feelings to be quite different with regards to this.

If Stacy was born as Steven, is she a man or a woman? Is she male or female? Does this change if she still has a penis? Your last few posts have implied that in your mind those are one and the same (edit: and you keep using them interchangeably too), and that if she ever had a penis she's both male and a man. That's why I'm not buying into your science crap -- you keep trying so hard to make a distinction between the two yet turn around and say stupid shit like this.

I simply don't want to get caught into arguing with you like everyone else in this topic has had the misfortune of doing, and so that's all I'm going to say. You're contradicting yourself and are actively belittling a minority group by denying them their individuality, even if you're doing it "in secret in your head". I'm adult enough to understand that you're not going to magically change your perception of the world because of some words I've posted online.

Have fun.

Presuming she was born genetically male she is male. If she has a penis she's phenotypically male. If she feels like a man her gender identity is male.

I'm not contradicting anything and I'm not belittling anyone.

[Nation of Fortune]

Corrected that for you. Sex organ=/= phenotype.

Yeah no. Feminine appearance is overriden by the presence of a penis.

Yeah no, every text book I've ever read seems to disagree with you. But for posterity sake, here's a link to wikipedia because you clearly don't read textbooks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenotype

[Threlizdun]

You don't get to decide how other people view you, it's unreasonable to expect to have that power. My personal attitude isn't transphobic and isn't spreading transphobia so I really don't see a problem.

I am not demanding you stop believing this; I am just stating that there is a clear difference between gender and sex, which you evidently refuse to recognize. This belief that gender and sex is one in the same, while already frustrating on its own for those seeking recognition for their gender identity, is the reason why other people make the lives of transgendered individuals a living hell.

[Nation of Fortune]

You can always tell the difference between a MTF and a female, a FTM and a Male?

Gives me an interesting idea for a threadjack. [/joke]

Wait a minute, didn't I do a whole thread dedicated to that a while back? And the results of the poll most definitely proved the point that you can't. Pity I took the pictures off of my photobucket, all the links on the thread are now broken.

[Des-Bal]

Yeah no, every text book I've ever read seems to disagree with you. But for posterity sake, here's a link to wikipedia because you clearly don't read textbooks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenotype

Nyet, feminine or masculine characteristics are often ambiguous and how many have to be met in order to lean one way or another. is that a penis is significantly less ambiguous. Maybe you should take a break, you seem to be getting hostile.

[Des-Bal]

I am not demanding you stop believing this; I am just stating that there is a clear difference between gender and sex, which you evidently refuse to recognize. This belief that gender and sex is one in the same, while already frustrating on its own for those seeking recognition for their gender identity, is the reason why other people make the lives of transgendered individuals a living hell.

I recognize it, you have your gender identity I consider you male or female based on your born gender regardless of what it is. It's not that I don't see it I'm saying my view and yours are different.

[North California]

They be in pornos doin' everybody.

[Threlizdun]

Yeah no, every text book I've ever read seems to disagree with you. But for posterity sake, here's a link to wikipedia because you clearly don't read textbooks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenotype

Nyet, feminine or masculine characteristics are often ambiguous and how many have to be met in order to lean one way or another. is that a penis is significantly less ambiguous. Maybe you should take a break, you seem to be getting hostile.

While feminine and masculine social traits are nothing more than societal constructs, it is pretty hard to deny the different phenotypical traits they posess.

[Des-Bal]

While feminine and masculine social traits are nothing more than societal constructs, it is pretty hard to deny the different phenotypical traits they posess.

Not always. How many traits have to be met for someone to be phenotypically female?

[Nation of Fortune]

Yeah no, every text book I've ever read seems to disagree with you. But for posterity sake, here's a link to wikipedia because you clearly don't read textbooks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenotype

Nyet, feminine or masculine characteristics are often ambiguous and how many have to be met in order to lean one way or another. is that a penis is significantly less ambiguous. Maybe you should take a break, you seem to be getting hostile.

I'm getting hostile? Perhaps you should look back at yourself. I'm just as sarcastic as I was when I when I started.

And once again, your phenotype view is not following any logical definition other than the one you are making up to fit your needs. Saying I'm wrong is one thing, but saying a collective knowledge of people incredibly more knowledgeable on the topic than yourself is wrong, is quite arrogant, misguided, and plain and simply wrong.

[Ai-sha]

Yeah no, every text book I've ever read seems to disagree with you. But for posterity sake, here's a link to wikipedia because you clearly don't read textbooks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenotype

Nyet, feminine or masculine characteristics are often ambiguous and how many have to be met in order to lean one way or another. is that a penis is significantly less ambiguous. Maybe you should take a break, you seem to be getting hostile.

I have to agree that if there is any single most important determinant of phenotype, it'd have to be the sexual organ; that being said, just like in "race", phenotype becomes blurred when you realize the diversity of the human race, and placing too much significance on one aspect is dangerous misleading.

[Des-Bal]

I'm getting hostile? Perhaps you should look back at yourself. I'm just as sarcastic as I was when I when I started.

And once again, your phenotype view is not following any logical definition other than the one you are making up to fit your needs. Saying I'm wrong is one thing, but saying a collective knowledge of people incredibly more knowledgeable on the topic than yourself is wrong, is quite arrogant, misguided, and plain and simply wrong.

I'm saying what is the clear cut black and white phenotype for gender? How many traits does someone need to be phenotypically female I say the sex organs are the single most important deciding factor.

[Nation of Fortune]

I'm getting hostile? Perhaps you should look back at yourself. I'm just as sarcastic as I was when I when I started.

And once again, your phenotype view is not following any logical definition other than the one you are making up to fit your needs. Saying I'm wrong is one thing, but saying a collective knowledge of people incredibly more knowledgeable on the topic than yourself is wrong, is quite arrogant, misguided, and plain and simply wrong.

I'm saying what is the clear cut black and white phenotype for gender? How many traits does someone need to be phenotypically female I say the sex organs are the single most important deciding factor.

Enough for there to be reasonable doubt about one's gender is a good place to start. I'm not saying there is any clear cut for the phenotype, but if one person is pheonotypically female in every other aspect, why classify that person as a phenotypical male? It's about as silly as calling a female who was born XY a male.

[Des-Bal]

Enough for there to be reasonable doubt about one's gender is a good place to start. I'm not saying there is any clear cut for the phenotype, but if one person is pheonotypically female in every other aspect, why classify that person as a phenotypical male? It's about as silly as calling a female who was born XY a male.

Because the classification isn't clear, I'm not big on that ambiguity because if everyone's drawing their own lines it's really just a matter of opinion, where you personally draw the line. If that's the case then my opinion is that sex organs are important enough to outweigh any other factors.

[Nation of Fortune]

Enough for there to be reasonable doubt about one's gender is a good place to start. I'm not saying there is any clear cut for the phenotype, but if one person is pheonotypically female in every other aspect, why classify that person as a phenotypical male? It's about as silly as calling a female who was born XY a male.

Because the classification isn't clear, I'm not big on that ambiguity because if everyone's drawing their own lines it's really just a matter of opinion, where you personally draw the line. If that's the case then my opinion is that sex organs are important enough to outweigh any other factors.

If you want something with clear cut definitions and answers, I suggest you take up math, however in matters of biology, psychology, and gender and sexual diversity, there are almost no clear cut lines anywhere. Does everyone experience the exact same signs of depression, or any psychological affliction? No, nobody does. Is every single monkey the exact same, no they are quite diverse amongst themselves. Gender and sexual diversity is no different. Just because someone wants to categorize everyone in nice tidy little boxes doesn't mean it is possible. Your saying everyone needs to be in a nice tidy little box is reinforcing other people who believe they should be put into tidy boxes and then rounded up and coerced into conforming. You don't think everyone should conform like they are saying, but your views are reinforcing theirs no matter what you say to justify it.

Where would we be without this diversity you are so adamantly trying to break up? Once upon a time these two brothers had a crazy idea that they could make a machine that would fly, everyone told them it was impossible and to ignore it and conform to what everyone thought was possible. Imagine if they did conform, they wouldn't have made a foundation for us to create bigger and better airplanes.

[Forsher]

Trans people don't become a different gender. They already are the different gender, and they alter their appearance and sometimes features of a biological sex to match their gender.

A transwoman is already a woman, even if she still has a penis.

I believe he mistook sex for gender. Common mistake.

Not actually a mistake. Assuming that gender cannot mean sex is, however, a mistake.

the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones):

Pay attention to the "typical".

[Ryadn]

I've only studied the biology of sexual reproduction at university, but in my understanding, 'gonadal streaks' are nonfunctional and incapable of producing eggs.

Of course, there are XX females who also have nonfunctional ovaries, so clearly sex does not rely on ability to procreate.

That's what I thought too.
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/93/1/182.abstract

I learned something on NS today and it wasn't just that I hated humanity more than I did yesterday.

Ah, mosaicism. Didn't think of that.

Also, you'll note the terminology in the article you just supplied-- "46,XY mother" and "46,XY daughter". Your source just pwned the fuck out of you.

[Ryadn]

I've only studied the biology of sexual reproduction at university, but in my understanding, 'gonadal streaks' are nonfunctional and incapable of producing eggs.

Of course, there are XX females who also have nonfunctional ovaries, so clearly sex does not rely on ability to procreate.

I never said all super models are, I said some. Mainly focusing around the fact that women who are tall (around 6') and having hyper feminine features are more likely to become supermodels. Guess what traits XY females, who are having issues with complete androgen insensitivity, have? Hyper feminine features and they are overly tall.

I also never said XY females giving birth was common, but I just said it has happened.

Dude, I'm on your side, and that's still really hard to find even halfway reasonable. XY females are a tiiiiiiny percentage of the population. There are a ton of tall women with 'hyper feminine' features (your classification of super models today as 'hyper feminine' is an argument in itself). That's not even a reach, it's a swim across the English Channel.

[Ryadn]

Do you mind if I ask what bigender is? And by genderqueer female, does that mean that feels herself to be balanced somewhere between a masculine and feminine female?

You can ask. Please be aware that it's very late and as such I am currently a bear of very little brain, so my explanations are likely to be...well...shit.

Bigender is where gender identity sort of oscillates between two gender identities (usually male and female, though one or both might be an androgynous or 'other' gender identity. In practical terms, it manifests in a qualitative shift between gendered states - which for some, though not all, is externally reflected in a shift in gendered expression, mannerisms and how they relate to the world. I'm not really particularly involved in the bigender community - which is a thing that exists, at least online - but I'm trying to give as wide a definition as possible and not specifically focus down on me.

In terms of genderqueer female, yes I think you're broadly right. For her, a gender spectrum model is appropriate, she feels a "call" to a female gender identity and categorises herself broadly within that, but at the same time it's a bit fuzzy and that identification is always somewhat provisional and incomplete. I can't answer that with too much certainty without talking to her and getting her thoughts on it.

Thank you, those are both excellent answers. I had never heard either term, and I like to be as educated as possible so as to not be an unintentional ass (as opposed to the intentional ass I generally am).

[Nation of Fortune]

I never said all super models are, I said some. Mainly focusing around the fact that women who are tall (around 6') and having hyper feminine features are more likely to become supermodels. Guess what traits XY females, who are having issues with complete androgen insensitivity, have? Hyper feminine features and they are overly tall.

I also never said XY females giving birth was common, but I just said it has happened.

Dude, I'm on your side, and that's still really hard to find even halfway reasonable. XY females are a tiiiiiiny percentage of the population. There are a ton of tall women with 'hyper feminine' features (your classification of super models today as 'hyper feminine' is an argument in itself). That's not even a reach, it's a swim across the English Channel.

It's hardly a long shot in any sense. Typically women who have Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome are described as being incredibly gorgeous with knock out figures. It is hardly a stretch to say a number of them would turn to modelling. I'm not going down the line and saying every model has CAIS, but to say it is incredibly difficult to believe that it is possible is quite more of a stretch than to say some of them end up modelling.

[Des-Bal]

If you want something with clear cut definitions and answers, I suggest you take up math, however in matters of biology, psychology, and gender and sexual diversity, there are almost no clear cut lines anywhere. Does everyone experience the exact same signs of depression, or any psychological affliction? No, nobody does. Is every single monkey the exact same, no they are quite diverse amongst themselves. Gender and sexual diversity is no different. Just because someone wants to categorize everyone in nice tidy little boxes doesn't mean it is possible. Your saying everyone needs to be in a nice tidy little box is reinforcing other people who believe they should be put into tidy boxes and then rounded up and coerced into conforming. You don't think everyone should conform like they are saying, but your views are reinforcing theirs no matter what you say to justify it.

Where would we be without this diversity you are so adamantly trying to break up? Once upon a time these two brothers had a crazy idea that they could make a machine that would fly, everyone told them it was impossible and to ignore it and conform to what everyone thought was possible. Imagine if they did conform, they wouldn't have made a foundation for us to create bigger and better airplanes.

Right, so by expecting clear definitions I'm stifling the wright brothers. There is absolutely no leap of logic there.

[Ekeliful]

You continuously pull completely unrelated things into your argument trying to use them to prove a point.
It isn't working.
What do the Wright Brothers have to do with gender at all?
That makes absolutely no sense.

[Des-Bal]

You continuously pull completely unrelated things into your argument trying to use them to prove a point.
It isn't working.
What do the Wright Brothers have to do with gender at all?
That makes absolutely no sense.

You're damn right it doesn't, I didn't bring them up. But apparently I'm stifling their creativity.

[Nation of Fortune]

If you want something with clear cut definitions and answers, I suggest you take up math, however in matters of biology, psychology, and gender and sexual diversity, there are almost no clear cut lines anywhere. Does everyone experience the exact same signs of depression, or any psychological affliction? No, nobody does. Is every single monkey the exact same, no they are quite diverse amongst themselves. Gender and sexual diversity is no different. Just because someone wants to categorize everyone in nice tidy little boxes doesn't mean it is possible. Your saying everyone needs to be in a nice tidy little box is reinforcing other people who believe they should be put into tidy boxes and then rounded up and coerced into conforming. You don't think everyone should conform like they are saying, but your views are reinforcing theirs no matter what you say to justify it.

Where would we be without this diversity you are so adamantly trying to break up? Once upon a time these two brothers had a crazy idea that they could make a machine that would fly, everyone told them it was impossible and to ignore it and conform to what everyone thought was possible. Imagine if they did conform, they wouldn't have made a foundation for us to create bigger and better airplanes.

Right, so by expecting clear definitions I'm stifling the wright brothers. There is absolutely no leap of logic there.

You don't like to think, do you? I probably should have realized you would take the argument at face value, like you have done before. What I was pointing out was that when everyone conforms to what everyone else is doing, change never happens. In our current society there are places where it is perfectly legal to discriminate against trans* people. This is the case because people, like you, don't want to change their views. They want to put every trans* person in a nice tidy little box and sweep it under the rug so they don't have to think about it. Clearly defining, by putting into two categories, people who have gender identities that are different is not only rude, but like I've shown before potentially dangerous. The only real way to get rid of laws that allow discrimination is to change them, in order to change those laws peoples minds need to change.