Are transgenders Gay?

[Nation of Fortune]

Hmm, in retrospect, from what I've heard/read et cetera, that's one of the most common reasons that i know for someone transitioning.

perhaps i misconstrued what i read.

"No transsexual would ever decide to transition just because their attraction is to the gender they are transitioning to." My interpretation of that is that, a person would transition because they want to be what they are attracted to; whereas your reason seems to be that you decided to transition because you knew you were a girl(IE, changing sex to match gender), irregardless of your sexual attraction. Really though, if i misinterpreted what you said in any way(which is likely), feel free to inform me

Still though, thanks for sharing your story, you're stronger than most people i know.

That is pretty much right. I'm not transitioning because I want to be what I'm attracted to, last I checked that was autogynephilia. I am transitioning because the constant discord between what my mind said I was and what my body was, was causing me to do some incredibly self destructive things. Ultimately given the choice of living the rest of my life as a male, or dying, I don't think I really need to say which would have won out.

[Dergue-Ethiopia]

Did you not read my post?

You share the same beliefs, you just don't act in the same the way as others. Beliefs more often then not, influence actions. For you, your action's may be to avoid [group], for others it may be to harm [group]. Regardless of what action you take, you share the same beliefs. Now this does bring up the existence of co-existing beliefs, morals, values et cetera.

This really could apply to anything.

No it's not about the beliefs that we share it's about MY beliefs the ones that are inside my head being that I'm not the one doing the killing or hating or participating in the group that is how the hell are MY beliefs damaging anyone.

Your dense.

Like i said, there is the aspect of coexisting beliefs, morals, value et cetera, that can affect influence your actions, but the point is beliefs influence actions. There can be an infinite amount of co-existing beliefs, morals et cetera, that contribute to the totality of an individuals character, but any one of these can be used to link different people. Like i said, this can apply to ANYTHING, so i don't want to go to too deep, as it could be easy to veer off course.

I'm not saying Facism is Communism. It's not. But for a Communist to say they have nothing in common with Fascist, would be a lie; they may not be the same as a whole, but certain aspects/beliefs are similar, they just lead to different things. (This is an analogy, BTW)

Still, i fear i may be drifting so i'll try to be concise.
If you share a belief with another person, your belief=their belief. If your=their belief and their belief caused their action, then by default, your belief caused their action.

[Des-Bal]

Your dense.

Like i said, there is the aspect of coexisting beliefs, morals, value et cetera, that can affect influence your actions, but the point is beliefs influence actions. There can be an infinite amount of beliefs, morals et cetera, that contribute to the totality of an individuals character, but any one of these can be used to link different people. Like i said, this can apply to ANYTHING, so i don't want to go to too deep, as it could be easy to veer off course.

I'm not saying Facism is Communism. It's not. But for a Communist to say they have nothing in common with Fascist, would be a lie; they may not be the same as a whole, but certain aspects/beliefs are similar, they just lead to different things. (This is an analogy, BTW)

Still, i fear i may be drifting so i'll try to be concise.
If you share a belief with another person, your belief=their belief. If your=their belief and their belief cause their action, then by default, your belief caused their action.

MY beliefs didn't influence THEY'RE actions. My belief is not they're belief. I can believe literally whatever the hell I want without influencing someone elses actions or breeding hate in anyway whatsoever.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Internally, maybe you can make that argument. You sure as hell can't the instant you voice it.

[Des-Bal]

Internally, maybe you can make that argument. You sure as hell can't the instant you voice it.

So you're saying the fact that I've voiced my opinion has caused someone to hate?

[Zevassa]

Internally, maybe you can make that argument. You sure as hell can't the instant you voice it.

So you're saying the fact that I've voiced my opinion has caused someone to hate?

Frankly, it depends on the nature of the opinion you are voicing, as well as the connotation and context. In this context, you appear to be belittling a minority for the sake of science. I wouldn't say that you're causing anyone to hate, but rather that you're being obtuse and difficult.

[Nation of Fortune]

Your dense.

Like i said, there is the aspect of coexisting beliefs, morals, value et cetera, that can affect influence your actions, but the point is beliefs influence actions. There can be an infinite amount of beliefs, morals et cetera, that contribute to the totality of an individuals character, but any one of these can be used to link different people. Like i said, this can apply to ANYTHING, so i don't want to go to too deep, as it could be easy to veer off course.

I'm not saying Facism is Communism. It's not. But for a Communist to say they have nothing in common with Fascist, would be a lie; they may not be the same as a whole, but certain aspects/beliefs are similar, they just lead to different things. (This is an analogy, BTW)

Still, i fear i may be drifting so i'll try to be concise.
If you share a belief with another person, your belief=their belief. If your=their belief and their belief cause their action, then by default, your belief caused their action.

MY beliefs didn't influence THEY'RE actions. My belief is not they're belief. I can believe literally whatever the hell I want without influencing someone elses actions or breeding hate in anyway whatsoever.

You do remember my thirsty man argument yes? The whole point of it was that these injustices do happen, and they happen because people hold the beliefs that you do. They feel justified in their actions because their beliefs are validated by others who hold the same belief. That is where the whole not giving the thirsty man water is tantamount to murder comes into play. Sure, your actions caused no harm to trans* people, but your beliefs support and endorse hatred and violence. The only real way to not support this hate, is to change the views you hold and encourage other people to change those beliefs. Am I saying your views need to be in line with my own, not at all, but in the end viewing anyone who is gender variant other than the gender they say they are is endorsing hatred.

I've already illustrated how your views on these topics is harmful. In the end, that is all I can really do. I just hope that some point in the future you don't find your self facing the same struggles trans* people face just to find acceptance. Perhaps maybe you should, would give you a good perspective on my point of view.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Internally, maybe you can make that argument. You sure as hell can't the instant you voice it.

So you're saying the fact that I've voiced my opinion has caused someone to hate?

Not necessarily, but it legitimizes that hatred.

[Dergue-Ethiopia]

Your dense.

Like i said, there is the aspect of coexisting beliefs, morals, value et cetera, that can affect influence your actions, but the point is beliefs influence actions. There can be an infinite amount of beliefs, morals et cetera, that contribute to the totality of an individuals character, but any one of these can be used to link different people. Like i said, this can apply to ANYTHING, so i don't want to go to too deep, as it could be easy to veer off course.

I'm not saying Facism is Communism. It's not. But for a Communist to say they have nothing in common with Fascist, would be a lie; they may not be the same as a whole, but certain aspects/beliefs are similar, they just lead to different things. (This is an analogy, BTW)

Still, i fear i may be drifting so i'll try to be concise.
If you share a belief with another person, your belief=their belief. If your=their belief and their belief cause their action, then by default, your belief caused their action.

MY beliefs didn't influence THEY'RE actions. My belief is not they're belief. I can believe literally whatever the hell I want without influencing someone elses actions or breeding hate in anyway whatsoever.

Maybe you're so defensive because you feel im is placing fault on you, i'm not.

Let's say a belief can lead to any one of an infinite number of possible actions. Now if that belief did not exist, then logically none of those possible actions could have occurred as a result of the belief.

That last part is critical to understanding the entire point, which is why i underlined it.

[Des-Bal]

Frankly, it depends on the nature of the opinion you are voicing, as well as the connotation and context. In this context, you appear to be belittling a minority for the sake of science. I wouldn't say that you're causing anyone to hate, but rather that you're being obtuse and difficult.

How? I'm not belittling shit, my position is was and will remain that I identify your gender based on the way you were born. It's not that I'm slow on the uptake that many people don't agree with that it's just that they can go jack off in a field and stop acting like I'm being ignorant just by feeling different about a subject than they do. I have a very informal manner on the internet, if that hurt's someone's feelings I honestly think they should toughen up and get over it.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Frankly, it depends on the nature of the opinion you are voicing, as well as the connotation and context. In this context, you appear to be belittling a minority for the sake of science. I wouldn't say that you're causing anyone to hate, but rather that you're being obtuse and difficult.

How? I'm not belittling shit, my position is was and will remain that I identify your gender based on the way you were born.

Excellent, so you don't know what gender is. Gotcha.

[Des-Bal]

Excellent, so you don't know what gender is. Gotcha.

No I do it's just that as far as I'm concerned if you were born a man you are a man. Not alot of other ways to describe that, if you have a better more concise word just tell me what it is and I'll start using it.

[Page]

Excellent, so you don't know what gender is. Gotcha.

No I do it's just that as far as I'm concerned if you were born a man you are a man. Not alot of other ways to describe that, if you have a better more concise word just tell me what it is and I'll start using it.

There are 7 billion people on this planet and exactly one person you are entitled to decide what their gender is, and that is you.

[Des-Bal]

No I do it's just that as far as I'm concerned if you were born a man you are a man. Not alot of other ways to describe that, if you have a better more concise word just tell me what it is and I'll start using it.

There are 7 billion people on this planet and exactly one person you are entitled to decide what their gender is, and that is you.

Yeah they can decide they're own gender. I decide how I perceive them.

[Threlizdun]

There are 7 billion people on this planet and exactly one person you are entitled to decide what their gender is, and that is you.

Yeah they can decide they're own gender. I decide how I perceive them.

Sadly, the world does not change to fit your perception.

[Neutraligon]

There are 7 billion people on this planet and exactly one person you are entitled to decide what their gender is, and that is you.

Yeah they can decide they're own gender. I decide how I perceive them.

You can always tell the difference between a MTF and a female, a FTM and a Male?

[Des-Bal]

Sadly, the world does not change to fit your perception.

Doesn't have to. If you were born male I consider you male. If you feel female I'll refer to you as female, my feelings aren't effecting you in any way. If that has any effect on you it's because you're too sensitive.

[Raeyh]

Yeah they can decide they're own gender. I decide how I perceive them.

Sadly, the world does not change to fit your perception.

It doesn't, but things that are subjective, like how masculine or feminine someone is, is based entirely on your perception.

[Zevassa]

Excellent, so you don't know what gender is. Gotcha.

No I do it's just that as far as I'm concerned if you were born a man you are a man. Not alot of other ways to describe that, if you have a better more concise word just tell me what it is and I'll start using it.

I think this right here would be the "belittling" part I was referencing.

I'm happy that you agree with us though: if someone is born a man then they are a man. It's just that as far as I'm concerned you're trying to imply that the penis is the only thing that makes a man a man, and therefore are belittling every trans-man on the planet, simply because you think you know how to science.

Either way I'm not looking to get into an argument. Believe what you want. It's not like posting in a topic on the internet is going to change your mind. Have fun flailing, everyone.

[Des-Bal]

I think this right here would be the "belittling" part I was referencing.

I'm happy that you agree with us though: if someone is born a man then they are a man. It's just that as far as I'm concerned you're trying to imply that the penis is the only thing that makes a man a man, and therefore are belittling every trans-man on the planet, simply because you think you know how to science.

Either way I'm not looking to get into an argument. Believe what you want. It's not like posting in a topic on the internet is going to change your mind. Have fun flailing, everyone.

I never said the penis makes you a man I said the penis is what makes you phenotypically male.

[Dergue-Ethiopia]

No I do it's just that as far as I'm concerned if you were born a man you are a man. Not alot of other ways to describe that, if you have a better more concise word just tell me what it is and I'll start using it.

I think this right here would be the "belittling" part I was referencing.

I'm happy that you agree with us though: if someone is born a man then they are a man. It's just that as far as I'm concerned you're trying to imply that the penis is the only thing that makes a man a man, and therefore are belittling every trans-man on the planet, simply because you think you know how to science.

Either way I'm not looking to get into an argument. Believe what you want. It's not like posting in a topic on the internet is going to change your mind. Have fun flailing, everyone.

It could, and the prospect of influence is the best reason for a good debate.

[Nation of Fortune]

I think this right here would be the "belittling" part I was referencing.

I'm happy that you agree with us though: if someone is born a man then they are a man. It's just that as far as I'm concerned you're trying to imply that the penis is the only thing that makes a man a man, and therefore are belittling every trans-man on the planet, simply because you think you know how to science.

Either way I'm not looking to get into an argument. Believe what you want. It's not like posting in a topic on the internet is going to change your mind. Have fun flailing, everyone.

I never said the penis makes you a man I said the penis is what makes you biological male.

Corrected that for you. Sex organ=/= phenotype.

[Threlizdun]

Sadly, the world does not change to fit your perception.

Doesn't have to. If you were born male I consider you male. If you feel female I'll refer to you as female, my feelings aren't effecting you in any way. If that has any effect on you it's because you're too sensitive.

The fact that you repeatedly have denied the gender of expression most certainly will have an effect on others, not because we are overly sensitive, but because it's offensive as hell to tell someone that you have a better idea about who and what they really are than they do. I'm relieved to know you actually address them in person as they gender they identify as, but the fact that you conclude one's gender to be identical to their physical sex is absurd, and is where such transphobic attitudes stem from in the first place.

[Des-Bal]

Corrected that for you. Sex organ=/= phenotype.

Yeah no. Feminine appearance is overriden by the presence of a penis.

The fact that you repeatedly have denied the gender of expression most certainly will have an effect on others, not because we are overly sensitive, but because it's offensive as hell to tell someone that you have a better idea about who and what they really are than they do. I'm relieved to know you actually address them in person as they gender they identify as, but the fact that you conclude one's gender to be identical to their physical sex is absurd, and is where such transphobic attitudes stem from in the first place.

You don't get to decide how other people view you, it's unreasonable to expect to have that power. My personal attitude isn't transphobic and isn't spreading transphobia so I really don't see a problem.

[Zevassa]

I think this right here would be the "belittling" part I was referencing.

I'm happy that you agree with us though: if someone is born a man then they are a man. It's just that as far as I'm concerned you're trying to imply that the penis is the only thing that makes a man a man, and therefore are belittling every trans-man on the planet, simply because you think you know how to science.

Either way I'm not looking to get into an argument. Believe what you want. It's not like posting in a topic on the internet is going to change your mind. Have fun flailing, everyone.

I never said the penis makes you a man I said the penis is what makes you phenotypically male.

You say that now, and you've said that before, but your attitude and in fact many of your posts (including the one I quoted when I replied to you) imply your feelings to be quite different with regards to this.

If Stacy was born as Steven, is she a man or a woman? Is she male or female? Does this change if she still has a penis? Your last few posts have implied that in your mind those are one and the same (edit: and you keep using them interchangeably too), and that if she ever had a penis she's both male and a man. That's why I'm not buying into your science crap -- you keep trying so hard to make a distinction between the two yet turn around and say stupid shit like this.

I simply don't want to get caught into arguing with you like everyone else in this topic has had the misfortune of doing, and so that's all I'm going to say. You're contradicting yourself and are actively belittling a minority group by denying them their individuality, even if you're doing it "in secret in your head". I'm adult enough to understand that you're not going to magically change your perception of the world because of some words I've posted online.

Have fun.