Are transgenders Gay?

[The Steel Magnolia]

I'm going to ask a question to try and get this moving along from the same thing debated over and over since it's getting nowhere.
What if somebody wanted to go male to female not because they are transgendered, or because they think it's fun. Rather they just want to because they might think it's fun (forgive me if this is offensive) or because they feel like it?

That literally never happens ever. I mean, I get that you don't mean to offend, but that's literally never happened.

[Zevassa]

I'm going to ask a question to try and get this moving along from the same thing debated over and over since it's getting nowhere.
What if somebody wanted to go male to female not because they are transgendered, or because they think it's fun. Rather they just want to because they might think it's fun (forgive me if this is offensive) or because they feel like it?

I would discourage them from doing so for the same reason that I would discourage anyone from getting a tattoo who wasn't 100% sure about it: it's something you're going to live with for a long time, so make sure you're thinking clearly and not just going for a thrill ride.

E:

That literally never happens ever. I mean, I get that you don't mean to offend, but that's literally never happened.

For the sake of hypothetical discussion though I don't see any harm in giving an answer. What other people do with themselves isn't going to offend me. I just want to make sure they're not harming themselves -- no one should transition without a reason, imho.

[The Steel Magnolia]

~Snip~

Eh, I'm not sure that's true for everyone. I didn't really even ~know~ until I was 12ish, when I found out it was, y'know, actually possible. Looking back, of course, I remember asking something of that nature, asking my mother whether I'd grow up to look like her and being shot down tends to make one wary of raising the issue again, but I didn't really have that understanding of myself until later.

[Des-Bal]

That literally never happens ever. I mean, I get that you don't mean to offend, but that's literally never happened.

It doesn't change the fact it's very easilly possible.

[Nation of Fortune]

I'm saying I consider you a man or woman based on you're sex rather than your gender. Not that genetics dictate gender.

We finally approach the sex vs gender point I made to another individual a couple posts back. Sex and gender are not the same thing. My sex is male. My gender is Female. Sex is determined by what parts you have, gender by how you identify.

The point is you proved was that someone who is genetically male can have a baby since it's already been established someone who identifies as a male can also have a baby apparently men can have babies regardless of what standard you use.

Yes, I did, and I did it to prove a point, your instant classification of someones gender by what sex their chromosomes say they should be is stupid. Saying someone is a male instantly because their chromosomes say so, despite living their whole lives as a female, is ridiculous.

It's actually kind of insane that you're arguing a phenotypical and genotypical woman having sex with another phenotypical and genotypical woman is straight is fucking absurd. If a man who identifies himself as a man has sex with a woman who is phenotypically a woman but identifies herself as a man did that man and woman just have gay sex?

As far as I can tell, you seem to be using phenotype interchangeably with sex organs, which is ridiculous. The phenotype is the observable characteristics of something based on it's presentation of genetic code. Guess what? That includes every expression, not just what sex organs they have. My presentation is far more than what sex organ I have. My walk is, according to everyone who has seen me walk, quite feminine. My bodily figure, guess what, hips wider than my waist. Facial structure? High cheek bones and a weak jaw line. This whole phenotype=sex organ argument of yours is a disservice to your argument as a whole. A phenotype is a combination of all the characteristics, not just one like you have been using it.

Would that make the sex gay, no, the attraction would be because, like I pointed out earlier, phenotype is more than sex organs. The male is attracted to the masculine features of the male who happened to be born a woman, not the sex organ.

Brandon Teena never underwent a sex change operation, he had a vagina that's phenotype. Brandon Teena was phenotypically female you cannot argue otherwise. If you're saying anyone dressing as the opposite gender becomes that gender then how they identify itself doesn't matter does it? In that scenario there's a shitload of ambiguity. I say genetics dictate sex and your genetic sexual identity dictates whether your sexual preferences make you homosexual or heterosexual.

See the above argument about phenotype=/= sexual organ. There isn't much argument that (leaving off the genotype,phenotype whatever bullshit) females attracted to females is homosexual, males attracted to males is homosexual. Males attracted to females is heterosexual, females attracted to males is heterosexual. Not many people try to argue these points.

Brandon Teena died because those guys decided it was totally okay to rape and kill her because she was a lesbian and identified as a man. Other beliefs, specifically my personal beliefs weren't relevant.

Brandon Teena died because they believed he made their friend a lesbian because she was attracted to his masculine features. Your personal beliefs are the same as theirs, which you quite clearly evidence by calling him 'she'. Am I saying you would have killed him, not at all, but your supporting this view causes others, who might do such a thing, to justify their views because they aren't the only ones who hold them. Hence how you are supporting a dangerous belief.

[Ekeliful]

Considering it's a man and a man having sex... I'd say yours might be.

No it's a phenotypical, genotypical male having sex with a phenotypical female. That is a heterosexual male inserting his penis into the vagina of genotypical, phenotypical female. If that's two men you're definition of man could definitely use some polishing.

I've already answered this and you chose to ignore it.
It may be physically "straight" however the mentality of it is that it is gay.
As it is two men. There may be a vagina but it is still two men. The born man is (hopefully, otherwise the relationship may be in trouble) accepting and supportive of the fact that the transgendered man is in fact a man, and he still wants to be with him.

[Imsogone]

What if someone was male, became female, so that he could be lesbian?

I knew someone like that. He really did undergo gender reassignment surgery so that he could be a lesbian. I don't understand the psychology, but there it is.

[Des-Bal]

I've already answered this and you chose to ignore it.
It may be physically "straight" however the mentality of it is that it is gay.
As it is two men. There may be a vagina but it is still two men. The born man is (hopefully, otherwise the relationship may be in trouble) accepting and supportive of the fact that the transgendered man is in fact a man, and he still wants to be with him.

I didn't ignore you I just wasn't talking to you. If he's sexually attracted to this man (that looks like and was born a woman) does that make him gay? Did he just get tricked into entering into a homosexual relationship? Is that morally okay?

[Bergnovinaia]

Yay for information errors. And using "sex" in place of "gender" is acceptable, common place word substitution, so I am quite amused that you would correct me on that... (?).

And, false. Why would anyone change to align themselves with their "true" gender if it did not relate to their orientation? I don't think a guy that is heterosexual would wish to become a girl so he can still be (at depth) heterosexual, but by definition lesbian. Your logic makes no sense, at all... most likely because I am not the person who needs to be informed on the subject matter. People who receive SRS only do so because, yes, they do want to changes genders... but also so it makes it more appropriate to love the opposite sex of their new sex.

Hahahaha wasn't my reason at all. Try again. SRS is almost always due to simply wanting your external image to match your internal one.

Also, while it may be a common substitution, the gender and sex are two very, very different things, and it is inaccurate to conflate them.

I'm not saying it was your reason... I never addressed you at all. But yes. If your internal image makes you what would be considered to be homosexual and you are transitioning into what would be considered to be straight, of course, the fact that the it just happens to be a straight relationship now is not just an "oh... that's cool" benefit. Please... let's not blow plain BS around. (Odds are, I seriously have my doubts either of you are transitioning. I've seen so much bull-shitting on the forums recently that it's hard to believe anyone, especially on big things. But if you are, good for you!) I support transitioning, don't get me wrong. I am just stating that their is a benefit to it... whatever though. I am not going to argue on something that is, in my book, such a minor issue of debate.

And it really doesn't matter. Sex defines what an individual actually is, where I suppose gender defines what a person feels like they are (e.g. a man that feels like a woman, vice versa). However, in modern society, a man with the gender personality of a woman is still considered a man unless he has undergone sexual reassignment. I am basing my definition on modern society which, in the end, is all that really matters in this debate.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I'm going to ask a question to try and get this moving along from the same thing debated over and over since it's getting nowhere.
What if somebody wanted to go male to female not because they are transgendered, or because they think it's fun. Rather they just want to because they might think it's fun (forgive me if this is offensive) or because they feel like it?

I would discourage them from doing so for the same reason that I would discourage anyone from getting a tattoo who wasn't 100% sure about it: it's something you're going to live with for a long time, so make sure you're thinking clearly and not just going for a thrill ride.

E:

That literally never happens ever. I mean, I get that you don't mean to offend, but that's literally never happened.

For the sake of hypothetical discussion though I don't see any harm in giving an answer. What other people do with themselves isn't going to offend me. I just want to make sure they're not harming themselves -- no one should transition without a reason, imho.

Oh, fair enough, but despite the fact I've... issues with the whole "It's not a choice" referring to being bi/pan/homo/et cetera/sexual, since it implies a negativity that isn't there, I am going to raise the issue that given how catastrophic the IRL conditions for Trans* people are, it's not exactly something done on a whim.

[Page]

If, hypothetically, me as a cisgender man, had a partner who was biologically female, and then they came out as trans and said they identified as male, and someone asked me "so do you consider yourself straight or gay or bi or what?", I think I would respond "I consider myself still attracted to and still in love with the same person I always was, because a person's gender identity isn't an instant on/off switch for attraction or love."

Just be with who you want to be with, fuck who you want to fuck, love who you want to love. Don't worry if "this makes me gay now", that is retarded.

[Ekeliful]

I've already answered this and you chose to ignore it.
It may be physically "straight" however the mentality of it is that it is gay.
As it is two men. There may be a vagina but it is still two men. The born man is (hopefully, otherwise the relationship may be in trouble) accepting and supportive of the fact that the transgendered man is in fact a man, and he still wants to be with him.

I didn't ignore you I just wasn't talking to you. If he's sexually attracted to this man (that looks like and was born a woman) does that make him gay? Did he just get tricked into entering into a homosexual relationship? Is that morally okay?

I may be wrong but I do believe that a transgendered man going through transitioning becomes more masculine.

[Page]

That literally never happens ever. I mean, I get that you don't mean to offend, but that's literally never happened.

It doesn't change the fact it's very easilly possible.

If it did happen (but it literally never does), then I would have no judgment for the person who is willingly subjecting themselves to a world of discrimination and bigotry, because they will be dealing with enough from others who actually give a shit about what gender identity someone has or wants, which I don't.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I'm not saying it was your reason... I never addressed you at all. But yes. If your internal image makes you what would be considered to be homosexual and you are transitioning into what would be considered to be straight, of course, the fact that the it just happens to be a straight relationship now is not just an "oh... that's cool" benefit. Please... let's not blow plain BS around. (Odds are, I seriously have my doubts either of you are transitioning. I've seen so much bull-shitting on the forums recently that it's hard to believe anyone, especially on big things. But if you are, good for you!) I support transitioning, don't get me wrong. I am just stating that their is a benefit to it... whatever though. I am not going to argue on something that is, in my book, such a minor issue of debate.

And it really doesn't matter. Sex defines what an individual actually is, where I suppose gender defines what a person feels like they are (e.g. a man that feels like a woman, vice versa). However, in modern society, a man with the gender personality of a woman is still considered a man unless he has undergone sexual reassignment. I am basing my definition on modern society which, in the end, is all that really matters in this debate.

*raises eyebrow*

Right. Okay then, I mean, it's not like anyone would want to be part of possibly one of the most discriminated social groups if, you know, they weren't part of that group in the first place.

Sex defines what sex they are, which ranges from male to female and contains everything between. It doesn't override gender. Gender is what one identifies as. Gender overrides sex.

And your modern society is inaccurate in the extreme. A woman, born male, regardless of therapy or hormones or surgery, or, for that matter, anything but identity is female.

[Dergue-Ethiopia]

I'll tell you exactly why "I" took the risk. I cannot speak for other transsexuals, so my reasons are not inclusive to every transsexual, but I'm fairly positive that they have similar experiences.

When I was very little, I always knew I was a girl. Always wanted to be one, hated being a boy and the body I had. I however just dealt with it because my family wouldn't let me express any femininity. When I was, not sure exactly when, but I know I was about eight because it was before my mom got breast cancer, I tried to commit suicide for the first time because I was so depressed about who I was. My depression only got worse as I got older. I have scars all over my body from cutting myself because of how miserable I was and how much I hated my body. My parents intrinsically pushed me to be as manly as possible. When I turned 18, I was afraid of my feelings because I had been pushed by my family to be as manly as possible. I decided the manliest thing I could do was to join the united states marine corps infantry, and hey, another perk, if I died in Iraq or Afghanistan the problem was solved. I served honorably for four years, and did two combat deployments. Despite all this sterotypically manly stuff, I found myself feeling I needed to do this or I would actually succeed in suicide this time, the decision that I needed to transition came one night when I was incredibly depressed and had the barrel of my .45 in my mouth. I decided I'd rather live, and started transitioning. I have never been happier in my whole life. I have lost friends, I have faced physical violence, and I get insulted by my own father on a regular basis, but still my life is a million times better than before.

So why did I transition, because I was so miserable before that I wanted to die, and I decided I shouldn't have to hate myself.

Hmm, in retrospect, from what I've heard/read et cetera, that's one of the most common reasons that i know for someone transitioning.

perhaps i misconstrued what i read.

"No transsexual would ever decide to transition just because their attraction is to the gender they are transitioning to." My interpretation of that is that, a person would transition because they want to be what they are attracted to; whereas your reason seems to be that you decided to transition because you knew you were a girl(IE, changing sex to match gender), irregardless of your sexual attraction. Really though, if i misinterpreted what you said in any way(which is likely), feel free to inform me

Still though, thanks for sharing your story, you're stronger than most people i know.

[Des-Bal]

We finally approach the sex vs gender point I made to another individual a couple posts back. Sex and gender are not the same thing. My sex is male. My gender is Female. Sex is determined by what parts you have, gender by how you identify.

Yes, I did, and I did it to prove a point, your instant classification of someones gender by what sex their chromosomes say they should be is stupid. Saying someone is a male instantly because their chromosomes say so, despite living their whole lives as a female, is ridiculous.

As far as I can tell, you seem to be using phenotype interchangeably with sex organs, which is ridiculous. The phenotype is the observable characteristics of something based on it's presentation of genetic code. Guess what? That includes every expression, not just what sex organs they have. My presentation is far more than what sex organ I have. My walk is, according to everyone who has seen me walk, quite feminine. My bodily figure, guess what, hips wider than my waist. Facial structure? High cheek bones and a weak jaw line. This whole phenotype=sex organ argument of yours is a disservice to your argument as a whole. A phenotype is a combination of all the characteristics, not just one like you have been using it.

Would that make the sex gay, no, the attraction would be because, like I pointed out earlier, phenotype is more than sex organs. The male is attracted to the masculine features of the male who happened to be born a woman, not the sex organ.
See the above argument about phenotype=/= sexual organ. There isn't much argument that (leaving off the genotype,phenotype whatever bullshit) females attracted to females is homosexual, males attracted to males is homosexual. Males attracted to females is heterosexual, females attracted to males is heterosexual. Not many people try to argue these points.

Brandon Teena died because they believed he made their friend a lesbian because she was attracted to his masculine features. Your personal beliefs are the same as theirs, which you quite clearly evidence by calling him 'she'. Am I saying you would have killed him, not at all, but your supporting this view causes others, who might do such a thing, to justify their views because they aren't the only ones who hold them. Hence how you are supporting a dangerous belief.

I'm using sex to refer to the way you were born I'm not making up a third word to mean that. We already established there was some confusion between sex and gender a while back that's why I stopped responding to those questions.

I Identify you as a man or woman based on your genotype your gender identity is all up to you.

Phenotype is the observable physical characteristics. If a woman looks like a guy by token of being tall burly and flat chested it's all overriden by the fact she has a vagina. There are lots of androgynous people saying that being feminine makes you physically a woman would piss off a couple of guys I know (and their wives) pretty bad.

That is complete and total bullshit. That's like saying pro-lifers are supporting people who bomb abortion clinics by not holding the same views as you. I alternate between he and she for Brandon Teena because the pronouns get confusing after a while and her family has expressed displeasure at her being referred to as male.

[Nation of Fortune]

I didn't ignore you I just wasn't talking to you. If he's sexually attracted to this man (that looks like and was born a woman) does that make him gay? Did he just get tricked into entering into a homosexual relationship? Is that morally okay?

I may be wrong but I do believe that a transgendered man going through transitioning becomes more masculine.

Yeah, des-bal has been interchanging phenotype with sex organ. There is masculinization in the FtM transition, just like there is feminization in the MtF transition.

[Page]

her family has expressed displeasure at her being referred to as male.

So.fucking.what?

If they didn't want to recognize his true gender identity then they are as much part of the problem as anyone else.

[Des-Bal]

So.fucking.what?

If they didn't want to recognize his true gender identity then they are as much part of the problem as anyone else.

So their kids dead and their feelings being the only ones I can still hurt I'll go ahead and give them that.

[Page]

So.fucking.what?

If they didn't want to recognize his true gender identity then they are as much part of the problem as anyone else.

So their kids dead and their feelings being the only ones I can still hurt I'll go ahead and give them that.

And I'll not disgrace a victim of a violently transphobic culture by disrespectfully referring to them contrary to their identity.

[Des-Bal]

And I'll not disgrace a victim of a violently transphobic culture by disrespectfully referring to them contrary to their identity.

Never believed in being a victim of a culture. He was a victim of those guys.

[Dergue-Ethiopia]

"If a man who identifies himself as a man has sex with a woman who is phenotypically a woman but identifies herself as a man did that man and woman just have gay sex?"

No.

"Brandon Teena died because those guys decided it was totally okay to rape and kill her because she was a lesbian and identified as a man. Other beliefs, specifically my personal beliefs weren't relevant."

More often then not, beliefs influence actions. You could be a part of a collective of people who share anti-[insert social group here] beliefs, but not be apart of the portion of that group who carry out anti-[group] crimes as a result of your beliefs; still your beliefs spawned the action.

No see that was their beliefs. The accusation here is that my beliefs spawn hate. Having the beliefs I do isn't harming anybody.

Did you not read my post?

You share the same beliefs, you just don't act in the same the way as others. Beliefs more often then not, influence actions. For you, your action's may be to avoid [group], for others it may be to harm [group]. Regardless of what action you take, you share the same beliefs. Now this does bring up the existence aspect of co-existing beliefs, morals, values et cetera.

This really could apply to anything.

[Nation of Fortune]

I'm using sex to refer to the way you were born I'm not making up a third word to mean that. We already established there was some confusion between sex and gender a while back that's why I stopped responding to those questions.

I Identify you as a man or woman based on your genotype your gender identity is all up to you.

Why would there be a third word? There was nothing even mentioning anything other than gender and sex until you brought it up. Like I said, the definitions of the gender and sex still stand.

Phenotype is the observable physical characteristics. If a woman looks like a guy by token of being tall burly and flat chested it's all overriden by the fact she has a vagina. There are lots of androgynous people saying that being feminine makes you physically a woman would piss off a couple of guys I know (and their wives) pretty bad.

I'm sorry for pointing out how your observations are incorrect. It must be quite frustrating to accuse others of creating injustice for your misuse of words. I, going by my beliefs, believe that how they choose to identify is what determines their gender, not their phenotype or genotype like you are suggesting. Your misuse of the word phenotype, and my pointing it out to you, is the only thing that would cause any of those parties you mentioned to become upset.

That is complete and total bullshit. That's like saying pro-lifers are supporting people who bomb abortion clinics by not holding the same views as you. I alternate between he and she for Brandon Teena because the pronouns get confusing after a while and her family has expressed displeasure at her being referred to as male.

Your point? Maybe they wouldn't do it, maybe they don't like that it happens, but it doesn't change the fact their views are what caused it to happen. Even if it's only a few misguided individuals speaking on behalf of the whole.

I refer to Brandon Teena as a he because that was how he identified. My father would prefer everyone call me he, doesn't mean I want to be called he.

[Des-Bal]

Did you not read my post?

You share the same beliefs, you just don't act in the same the way as others. Beliefs more often then not, influence actions. For you, your action's may be to avoid [group], for others it may be to harm [group]. Regardless of what action you take, you share the same beliefs. Now this does bring up the existence of co-existing beliefs, morals, values et cetera.

This really could apply to anything.

No it's not about the beliefs that we share it's about MY beliefs the ones that are inside my head being that I'm not the one doing the killing or hating or participating in the group that is how the hell are MY beliefs damaging anyone.

[The God-Realm]

What if someone was male, became female, so that he could be lesbian?

Its the only reason I would want to change my sex.