Are transgenders Gay?

[Des-Bal]

I do not appreciate being referred to as an it.

Here's a guide to various pronouns that can be used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderquee ... r_pronouns

When in doubt, and if not informed of the proper pronoun to use, ask politely.

I'm very tolerant but not the least bit accommodating I refuse to call anyone "zie".

[Roan Cara]

my aunt sarah (formerly uncle scott) is transgendered and married a woman who he has loved and still loves and is still married to after his full transition surgery. So, at least in her case I would say no transgendered people are not gay. I would imagine it would be just like any other person and vary from person to person whether or not they were gay and probably have not much to do with gender at all.

[Bergnovinaia]

Simply put, yes. If one likes somebody of the opposite same sexgender, they are homosexual. If they like both sexesthe male and the female genders, they are bi. If they like only the opposite sexgender, they are heterosexual. It really is not that hard of a concept to grasp.

I wish to OP would adjust their argument to something more relating to the debate of whether changing a person's sex to make their orientation straight actually makes them straight. That would be, in my opinion, a much better debate.

Nobody changes their sex to make their orientation straight. The only reason anybody gets SRS is to change their body to match their gender.

Please get informed on this subject if you're going to post about it.

Yay for information errors. And using "sex" in place of "gender" is acceptable, common place word substitution, so I am quite amused that you would correct me on that... (?).

And, false. Why would anyone change to align themselves with their "true" gender if it did not relate to their orientation? I don't think a guy that is heterosexual would wish to become a girl so he can still be (at depth) heterosexual, but by definition lesbian. Your logic makes no sense, at all... most likely because I am not the person who needs to be informed on the subject matter. People who receive SRS only do so because, yes, they do want to changes genders... but also so it makes it more appropriate to love the opposite sex of their new sex.

[Nation of Fortune]

1. I didn't ignore it I said it's interesting and I look forward to someone finding a solid answer.

Congratulations on discarding the evidence I laid out for you showing why chromosomal abnormalities, in other places than the XY/XX, chromsomal area can affect gender. Is that a solid answer? No, but it does show there is more going on than what you are saying is so clear cut. I know people, on this very forum, that have explained it in very definitive terms as to why your view is false. I do not have the knowledge to explain it clearly, but I have provided a couple, sub par I will admit, reasons as to why there is more going on. However, that still doesn't undermine the fact that I provided reasons.

2.You didn't have to. Because someone beat you too it.

http://img2-1.timeinc.net/people/i/2008/news/080414/thomas_beatie.jpg

His gender is male. You proved that someone who is sexually male can also have a baby. This evidence combined means you don't need to be a woman to have a baby.

It proved nothing of the sort. By your definition, Thomas Beatie is a female, XX chromosomes there. I left that argument out because it was rather irrelevant to the discussion we have been having. By my definition, yes, he is a male, and yes he had a baby. Big whoop, I never denied, by my definition, it could happen. My definition, however, is not what is in question here yours is, and your definition says he is in fact female, so it does nothing to support any argument you have made there.

3. first, I don't hold that view second, bullshit.

You are aware that saying you don't hold that view destroys the arguments you have been making the entire time. I mean your argument has been that classifying gender should be by one's genotype, correct? Because if so that is precisely the view you hold. Your sudden denial that other people share your view is quite remarkable considering you didn't deny it earlier. I don't think I need to bring up the thirsty man argument yet again.

4. I think the difference is whether or not he knows.

Thought you could slip this one by me I see. The questions were answered. If he is attracted to phenotypical traits, suddenly finding out the genotype would not change the attraction at all. Depending on their individual views they may not be comfortable with their attraction after that but it in no way makes them gay. Like I have been saying since the beginning, your narrow, genotypical, definition of gender is what is causing the issue period.

Also prove it breeds hate because that's a serious accusation your throwing about. When you accuse everyone who has different views than you of supporting hate you undercut your argument and make your concerns sound far less legitimate. The problem was that Brandon Teena was raped and murderded not that people thought having sex with him would make you a lesbian. Also, back on that "ambiguity" bit Brandon Teena was phenotypically female.

I did prove it breeds hate. People tortured, raped, and killed Brandon Teena because they thought he was female, and their female friend having sex with him made her 'into' a lesbian. They also killed their female friend. Fat lot of good you've done saying the view doesn't breed hate. If someone, just one person, in that group had stopped to say "Why does it matter what parts he has?" Brandon Teena would not be dead. Lisa Lambert would not be dead. Lana Tisdel would not be dead.

I'm not saying views other than my own breed hate. I'm saying the ones you are so staunchly defending very much so breed hate, especially this one. All it takes is one person to question the views of a group to stop them from doing something stupid. If you agree with the views how can you come up with a logical explanation that would make them stand down? Especially if they know you believe the same things they do.

Also, don't give me that "Brandon was phenotypically female" bullshit. If he were as phenotypically female as you say, why was it even a question to begin with? Why was he living as a male with fairly good success until someone pulled his pants down?

[Nation of Fortune]

And, false. Why would anyone change to align themselves with their "true" gender if it did not relate to their orientation? I don't think a guy that is heterosexual would wish to become a girl so he can still be (at depth) heterosexual, but by definition lesbian. Your logic makes no sense, at all... most likely because I am not the person who needs to be informed on the subject matter. People who receive SRS only do so because, yes, they do want to changes genders... but also so it makes it more appropriate to love the opposite sex of their new sex.

Really? No transsexual would ever decide to transition just because their attraction is to the gender they are transitioning to. If that's the case why am I transitioning? Perhaps you should take the advice and get better informed.

Not to mention that sex and gender are not interchangeable. Sex typically refers to one's sexual organs, while gender refers to how they present their gender to world. Commonly they are used interchangeably, but that does not make it so.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Nobody changes their sex to make their orientation straight. The only reason anybody gets SRS is to change their body to match their gender.

Please get informed on this subject if you're going to post about it.

Yay for information errors. And using "sex" in place of "gender" is acceptable, common place word substitution, so I am quite amused that you would correct me on that... (?).

And, false. Why would anyone change to align themselves with their "true" gender if it did not relate to their orientation? I don't think a guy that is heterosexual would wish to become a girl so he can still be (at depth) heterosexual, but by definition lesbian. Your logic makes no sense, at all... most likely because I am not the person who needs to be informed on the subject matter. People who receive SRS only do so because, yes, they do want to changes genders... but also so it makes it more appropriate to love the opposite sex of their new sex.

Hahahaha wasn't my reason at all. Try again. SRS is almost always due to simply wanting your external image to match your internal one.

Also, while it may be a common substitution, the gender and sex are two very, very different things, and it is inaccurate to conflate them.

[Des-Bal]

Congratulations on discarding the evidence I laid out for you showing why chromosomal abnormalities, in other places than the XY/XX, chromsomal area can affect gender. Is that a solid answer? No, but it does show there is more going on than what you are saying is so clear cut. I know people, on this very forum, that have explained it in very definitive terms as to why your view is false. I do not have the knowledge to explain it clearly, but I have provided a couple, sub par I will admit, reasons as to why there is more going on. However, that still doesn't undermine the fact that I provided reasons.

It proved nothing of the sort. By your definition, Thomas Beatie is a female, XX chromosomes there. I left that argument out because it was rather irrelevant to the discussion we have been having. By my definition, yes, he is a male, and yes he had a baby. Big whoop, I never denied, by my definition, it could happen. My definition, however, is not what is in question here yours is, and your definition says he is in fact female, so it does nothing to support any argument you have made there.


You are aware that saying you don't hold that view destroys the arguments you have been making the entire time. I mean your argument has been that classifying gender should be by one's genotype, correct? Because if so that is precisely the view you hold. Your sudden denial that other people share your view is quite remarkable considering you didn't deny it earlier. I don't think I need to bring up the thirsty man argument yet again.


Thought you could slip this one by me I see. The questions were answered. If he is attracted to phenotypical traits, suddenly finding out the genotype would not change the attraction at all. Depending on their individual views they may not be comfortable with their attraction after that but it in no way makes them gay. Like I have been saying since the beginning, your narrow, genotypical, definition of gender is what is causing the issue period.

I did prove it breeds hate. People tortured, raped, and killed Brandon Teena because they thought he was female, and their female friend having sex with him made her 'into' a lesbian. They also killed their female friend. Fat lot of good you've done saying the view doesn't breed hate. If someone, just one person, in that group had stopped to say "Why does it matter what parts he has?" Brandon Teena would not be dead. Lisa Lambert would not be dead. Lana Tisdel would not be dead.

I'm not saying views other than my own breed hate. I'm saying the ones you are so staunchly defending very much so breed hate, especially this one. All it takes is one person to question the views of a group to stop them from doing something stupid. If you agree with the views how can you come up with a logical explanation that would make them stand down? Especially if they know you believe the same things they do.

Also, don't give me that "Brandon was phenotypically female" bullshit. If he were as phenotypically female as you say, why was it even a question to begin with? Why was he living as a male with fairly good success until someone pulled his pants down?

I'm saying I consider you a man or woman based on you're sex rather than your gender. Not that genetics dictate gender.

The point is you proved was that someone who is genetically male can have a baby since it's already been established someone who identifies as a male can also have a baby apparently men can have babies regardless of what standard you use.

It's actually kind of insane that you're arguing a phenotypical and genotypical woman having sex with another phenotypical and genotypical woman is straight is fucking absurd. If a man who identifies himself as a man has sex with a woman who is phenotypically a woman but identifies herself as a man did that man and woman just have gay sex?

Brandon Teena never underwent a sex change operation, he had a vagina that's phenotype. Brandon Teena was phenotypically female you cannot argue otherwise. If you're saying anyone dressing as the opposite gender becomes that gender then how they identify itself doesn't matter does it? In that scenario there's a shitload of ambiguity. I say genetics dictate sex and your genetic sexual identity dictates whether your sexual preferences make you homosexual or heterosexual.

Brandon Teena died because those guys decided it was totally okay to rape and kill her because she was a lesbian and identified as a man. Other beliefs, specifically my personal beliefs weren't relevant.

[Dergue-Ethiopia]

Really? No transsexual would ever decide to transition just because their attraction is to the gender they are transitioning to. If that's the case why am I transitioning? Perhaps you should take the advice and get better informed.

That's a question that i would like to know the answer to.

[Nation of Fortune]

A keen imagination can go a long way. I stand by not needing attraction to have sex. If nothing else proper stimulation can help alot. Alcohol certainly helps many people sleep with someone they don't find attractive. Attraction, like I say, is not a prerequisite for sex.

I can see your point; perhaps arousal is the term that i'm thinking of. I'd have to say that there are different levels of attraction, but for me, there is a threshold. I've always been somewhat attracted to anyone who aroused me; by contrast, i've never been aroused by anyone who wasn't attractive to me, which includes men, and certain women. I don't drink so we can factor that out of the equation.

Yes, arousal would be a better term. Although arousal, at least with males, can happen rather spontaneously, kind of destroying the logic of saying arousal equals attraction. Not even taking into consideration outside factors like the possibility of erectile dysfunction where a male could be incredibly attracted to an individual but unable to become aroused. However one could argue that a woman doesn't need to be aroused to have sex anyway, so it's kind of a one way argument in any case.

[Nation of Fortune]

Really? No transsexual would ever decide to transition just because their attraction is to the gender they are transitioning to. If that's the case why am I transitioning? Perhaps you should take the advice and get better informed.

That's a question that i would like to know the answer to.

Ask and you shall receive:

But why take the risk of losing all your friends, your family members, and even employers because they somehow find out you're with a transexual? Say you're a guy who's always had a lot of male friends, when they find out that you did that they may never respect you or even talk to you again. If your parents aren't open minded about something like that then you're talking about your parents never respecting you or even disowning you. And worse, if your boss isn't open minded about it who knows what his response will be.

Also, if she lied about it, what's going to happen when you tell her you want kids? "Oh, I can't have kids"... "Oh, I used to be a man"... then you're like "What the hell?"

I'll tell you exactly why "I" took the risk. I cannot speak for other transsexuals, so my reasons are not inclusive to every transsexual, but I'm fairly positive that they have similar experiences.

When I was very little, I always knew I was a girl. Always wanted to be one, hated being a boy and the body I had. I however just dealt with it because my family wouldn't let me express any femininity. When I was, not sure exactly when, but I know I was about eight because it was before my mom got breast cancer, I tried to commit suicide for the first time because I was so depressed about who I was. My depression only got worse as I got older. I have scars all over my body from cutting myself because of how miserable I was and how much I hated my body. My parents intrinsically pushed me to be as manly as possible. When I turned 18, I was afraid of my feelings because I had been pushed by my family to be as manly as possible. I decided the manliest thing I could do was to join the united states marine corps infantry, and hey, another perk, if I died in Iraq or Afghanistan the problem was solved. I served honorably for four years, and did two combat deployments. Despite all this sterotypically manly stuff, I found myself feeling I needed to do this or I would actually succeed in suicide this time, the decision that I needed to transition came one night when I was incredibly depressed and had the barrel of my .45 in my mouth. I decided I'd rather live, and started transitioning. I have never been happier in my whole life. I have lost friends, I have faced physical violence, and I get insulted by my own father on a regular basis, but still my life is a million times better than before.

So why did I transition, because I was so miserable before that I wanted to die, and I decided I shouldn't have to hate myself.

[Ekeliful]

Congratulations on discarding the evidence I laid out for you showing why chromosomal abnormalities, in other places than the XY/XX, chromsomal area can affect gender. Is that a solid answer? No, but it does show there is more going on than what you are saying is so clear cut. I know people, on this very forum, that have explained it in very definitive terms as to why your view is false. I do not have the knowledge to explain it clearly, but I have provided a couple, sub par I will admit, reasons as to why there is more going on. However, that still doesn't undermine the fact that I provided reasons.

It proved nothing of the sort. By your definition, Thomas Beatie is a female, XX chromosomes there. I left that argument out because it was rather irrelevant to the discussion we have been having. By my definition, yes, he is a male, and yes he had a baby. Big whoop, I never denied, by my definition, it could happen. My definition, however, is not what is in question here yours is, and your definition says he is in fact female, so it does nothing to support any argument you have made there.


You are aware that saying you don't hold that view destroys the arguments you have been making the entire time. I mean your argument has been that classifying gender should be by one's genotype, correct? Because if so that is precisely the view you hold. Your sudden denial that other people share your view is quite remarkable considering you didn't deny it earlier. I don't think I need to bring up the thirsty man argument yet again.


Thought you could slip this one by me I see. The questions were answered. If he is attracted to phenotypical traits, suddenly finding out the genotype would not change the attraction at all. Depending on their individual views they may not be comfortable with their attraction after that but it in no way makes them gay. Like I have been saying since the beginning, your narrow, genotypical, definition of gender is what is causing the issue period.

I did prove it breeds hate. People tortured, raped, and killed Brandon Teena because they thought he was female, and their female friend having sex with him made her 'into' a lesbian. They also killed their female friend. Fat lot of good you've done saying the view doesn't breed hate. If someone, just one person, in that group had stopped to say "Why does it matter what parts he has?" Brandon Teena would not be dead. Lisa Lambert would not be dead. Lana Tisdel would not be dead.

I'm not saying views other than my own breed hate. I'm saying the ones you are so staunchly defending very much so breed hate, especially this one. All it takes is one person to question the views of a group to stop them from doing something stupid. If you agree with the views how can you come up with a logical explanation that would make them stand down? Especially if they know you believe the same things they do.

Also, don't give me that "Brandon was phenotypically female" bullshit. If he were as phenotypically female as you say, why was it even a question to begin with? Why was he living as a male with fairly good success until someone pulled his pants down?

I'm saying I consider you a man or woman based on you're sex rather than your gender. Not that genetics dictate gender.

The point is you proved was that someone who is genetically male can have a baby since it's already been established someone who identifies as a male can also have a baby apparently men can have babies regardless of what standard you use.

It's actually kind of insane that you're arguing a phenotypical and genotypical woman having sex with another phenotypical and genotypical woman is straight is fucking absurd. If a man who identifies himself as a man has sex with a woman who is phenotypically a woman but identifies herself as a man did that man and woman just have gay sex?

Brandon Teena never underwent a sex change operation, he had a vagina that's phenotype. Brandon Teena was phenotypically female you cannot argue otherwise. If you're saying anyone dressing as the opposite gender becomes that gender then how they identify itself doesn't matter does it? In that scenario there's a shitload of ambiguity. I say genetics dictate sex and your genetic sexual identity dictates whether your sexual preferences make you homosexual or heterosexual.

Brandon Teena died because those guys decided it was totally okay to rape and kill her because she was a lesbian and identified as a man. Other beliefs, specifically my personal beliefs weren't relevant.

If a man who identifies himself as a man has sex with a woman who is phenotypically a woman but identifies herself as a man did that man and woman just have gay sex?

I suppose you may be correct in that could technically not be considered gay sex.
However they may still be in a homoromantic (gay) relationship.
Just the sex happens to be straight because the transgendered man has not had sexual reassignment surgery.
I'm not entirely sure however as that is a bit beyond my knowledge.

[Dergue-Ethiopia]

"If a man who identifies himself as a man has sex with a woman who is phenotypically a woman but identifies herself as a man did that man and woman just have gay sex?"

No.

"Brandon Teena died because those guys decided it was totally okay to rape and kill her because she was a lesbian and identified as a man. Other beliefs, specifically my personal beliefs weren't relevant."

More often then not, beliefs influence actions. You could be a part of a collective of people who share anti-[insert social group here] beliefs, but not be apart of the portion of that group who carry out anti-[group] crimes as a result of your beliefs; still your beliefs spawned the action.

[Des-Bal]

"If a man who identifies himself as a man has sex with a woman who is phenotypically a woman but identifies herself as a man did that man and woman just have gay sex?"

No.

"Brandon Teena died because those guys decided it was totally okay to rape and kill her because she was a lesbian and identified as a man. Other beliefs, specifically my personal beliefs weren't relevant."

More often then not, beliefs influence actions. You could be a part of a collective of people who share anti-[insert social group here] beliefs, but not be apart of the portion of that group who carry out anti-[group] crimes as a result of your beliefs; still your beliefs spawned the action.

No see that was their beliefs. The accusation here is that my beliefs spawn hate. Having the beliefs I do isn't harming anybody.

[The Steel Magnolia]

If a man who identifies himself as a man has sex with a woman who is phenotypically a woman but identifies herself as a man did that man and woman just have gay sex?

Yep!

[Page]

I do not appreciate being referred to as an it.

Here's a guide to various pronouns that can be used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderquee ... r_pronouns

When in doubt, and if not informed of the proper pronoun to use, ask politely.

I'm very tolerant but not the least bit accommodating I refuse to call anyone "zie".

Honestly I agree about not really caring about made up words, but you could always refer to a genderqueer person as "they", which is the easiest thing to do, and I've never heard of a genderqueer person being offended by that.

[Des-Bal]

Honestly I agree about not really caring about made up words, but you could always refer to a genderqueer person as "they", which is the easiest thing to do, and I've never heard of a genderqueer person being offended by that.

I have no problem with that or calling them him or her based on preference but that's about as far as I'm going to go.

If a man who identifies himself as a man has sex with a woman who is phenotypically a woman but identifies herself as a man did that man and woman just have gay sex?

Yep!

Is the fact that a man and a woman can have gay sex not making you consider that your definition is fucked?

[Page]

Honestly I agree about not really caring about made up words, but you could always refer to a genderqueer person as "they", which is the easiest thing to do, and I've never heard of a genderqueer person being offended by that.

I have no problem with that or calling them him or her based on preference but that's about as far as I'm going to go.

But some people do not identify as non-binary. I know one non-binary person who I refer to as they because of their preference and it isn't that hard to do.

[Xathranaar]

I've known a transgender man who was gay. That is to say he was physically female (well, at first anyway), identified as male, and was attracted to men.

If you are one of those who say that transgenders are gay, would that make this person strait?

If so, you've got a funny definition of strait.

[Dergue-Ethiopia]

I can see your point; perhaps arousal is the term that i'm thinking of. I'd have to say that there are different levels of attraction, but for me, there is a threshold. I've always been somewhat attracted to anyone who aroused me; by contrast, i've never been aroused by anyone who wasn't attractive to me, which includes men, and certain women. I don't drink so we can factor that out of the equation.

Although arousal, at least with males, can happen rather spontaneously, kind of destroying the logic of saying arousal equals attraction. Not even taking into consideration outside factors like the possibility of erectile dysfunction where a male could be incredibly attracted to an individual but unable to become aroused.

I know that erection can be spontaneous, and that not all erections are sexual.

Perhaps i should have clarified that i meant sexual arousal. Sexual arousal pertains to anticipation of or desire for sex, or at least that's the definition that i'm using as the basis for my discussion.

I would have to say that in any instance where i have been aroused, i have also been attracted to some degree so, for me at least. Arousal=Attraction.

Erectile dysfunction can happen as a result of many causes, and is another issue entirely.

I could agree that attraction does not always equal arousal (primarily because of any of the various forms of ED), but if i am to be aroused, it is because i am attracted.
If i can't get it up, then i'm not going to be having sex, at which attraction doesn't really matter.

EDIT: just to add clarity for future references; any portion of your comment that i omitted is either: A) One that i agree with, or B) one that i don't know/care enough to formulate an opinion on.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Is the fact that a man and a woman can have gay sex not making you consider that your definition is fucked?

Considering it's a man and a man having sex... I'd say yours might be.

[Zevassa]

That's a question that i would like to know the answer to.

Ask and you shall receive:

I'll tell you exactly why "I" took the risk. I cannot speak for other transsexuals, so my reasons are not inclusive to every transsexual, but I'm fairly positive that they have similar experiences.

When I was very little, I always knew I was a girl. Always wanted to be one, hated being a boy and the body I had. I however just dealt with it because my family wouldn't let me express any femininity. When I was, not sure exactly when, but I know I was about eight because it was before my mom got breast cancer, I tried to commit suicide for the first time because I was so depressed about who I was. My depression only got worse as I got older. I have scars all over my body from cutting myself because of how miserable I was and how much I hated my body. My parents intrinsically pushed me to be as manly as possible. When I turned 18, I was afraid of my feelings because I had been pushed by my family to be as manly as possible. I decided the manliest thing I could do was to join the united states marine corps infantry, and hey, another perk, if I died in Iraq or Afghanistan the problem was solved. I served honorably for four years, and did two combat deployments. Despite all this sterotypically manly stuff, I found myself feeling I needed to do this or I would actually succeed in suicide this time, the decision that I needed to transition came one night when I was incredibly depressed and had the barrel of my .45 in my mouth. I decided I'd rather live, and started transitioning. I have never been happier in my whole life. I have lost friends, I have faced physical violence, and I get insulted by my own father on a regular basis, but still my life is a million times better than before.

So why did I transition, because I was so miserable before that I wanted to die, and I decided I shouldn't have to hate myself.

I just want to poke in to say that as someone who transitioned from male to female, this pretty much mirrors me (except instead of the military I became a logger). When people ask me why I've transitioned or why I wasn't happy as a boy I always respond the same way. I ask them what their earliest ten memories of life are and what their experiences were early on. Obviously no one has the same answer, but in general people talk about how they knew certain friends or had certain toys they liked, or about people in their lives or in their families dying. They talk about things like what sports they played (if any), pets they might have been attached to, what their favorite television shows were like, and any particularly traumatic or humorous experiences they've had.

When you ask myself or really any other transgender person what their earliest experiences are, you might hear some of that, but undoubtedly you will always hear the same exact thing popping up: we all remember having severe identity issues early on in life (younger than 6 years of age), and for some transgender people (myself included) that actually makes up the bulk of our earliest memories. I've never ever met someone who decided to become a man or become a woman because they think it's "sexy" or whatever.

How you identify yourself has very little to do with your sexuality or preference. A lot of trans* folk that I know run the full range from preferring a specific set of genitals to having no interest at all. Personally, I would consider myself bisexual because I'm completely open to the idea of a male partner and find some aspects of the stereotypical "male" attractive. However, my experiences both before and after transitioning have been with women and I have a preference for feminine traits. If our experiences alone constitute our labels, then I'm a lesbian (or a heterosexual for any bigots out there), but if what we find attraction to determines what our labels are, then I'm bisexual.

If you put 100 cisgender people in a room and ask them for their sexual preference, you're likely to get varied results, even with a small pool like that. It is completely the same with transgender people. I know a few transwomen who date only men or only women, and some that date both, and even some that don't date at all -- just like with the cisgender population.

tl;dr
Some are, some aren't, this topic covered it in-depth already, get reading.

[Des-Bal]

Considering it's a man and a man having sex... I'd say yours might be.

No it's a phenotypical, genotypical male having sex with a phenotypical female. That is a heterosexual male inserting his penis into the vagina of genotypical, phenotypical female. If that's two men you're definition of man could definitely use some polishing.

[Page]

Considering it's a man and a man having sex... I'd say yours might be.

No it's a phenotypical, genotypical male having sex with a phenotypical female. That is a heterosexual male inserting his penis into the vagina of genotypical, phenotypical female. If that's two men you're definition of man could definitely use some polishing.

A "phenotypical, genotypical male" who identifies as a woman is a woman.

[Ekeliful]

I'm going to ask a question to try and get this moving along from the same thing debated over and over since it's getting nowhere.
What if somebody wanted to go male to female not because they are transgendered, or because they think it's fun. Rather they just want to because they might think it's fun (forgive me if this is offensive) or because they feel like it?

[The Steel Magnolia]

Considering it's a man and a man having sex... I'd say yours might be.

No it's a phenotypical, genotypical male having sex with a phenotypical female. That is a heterosexual male inserting his penis into the vagina of genotypical, phenotypical female. If that's two men you're definition of man could definitely use some polishing.

Er, I think it might be the other way around there. If someone identifies as male, they're male, end of. So regardless of what you seem to think with your biological determinism, it's still two men. Having sex.