Best place to live?

[The Alma Mater]

1. Saying that the U.S.A offers the most opportunity in the world does not mean that opportunity does not exist elewhere as well.

According to you it does. Funny that
See:

I do beleive in America and the American dream . . . with good reason. Family members of mine have lived it and really made it from nothing. It is no myth, and it re-enforces my admiration for the American way that the way these people suceeded could not have happend elsewhere.

[The Atlantian islands]

Not really... it would have been serious hassle for me to move to the US, the buerocracy would have been prohibitive.
Whereas Ireland, no buerocracy for me at all. I simply showed up and found a job within days, which by now has turned into a nice little career.

Ok, so he we have it.

The fact that you could move there easily is because of the EU's border breakdown . . . seperate from the opportunity arguement.

Now the fact that you found a job quickly, that is the opportunity arguement. Ireland has been famous for it's capitalistic and pro-business/entrepreneurial attitude . .. that allows for more opportunity. But that doesn't mean you would not have found opportunity in the U.S. It just means that it was more simple for you to travel from Germany to Ireland.

Which is obvious.

[Hydesland]

So... what opportunities does the USA offer that other countries don't ?

http://www.heritage.org/Index/Country/UnitedStates

For instance:

Business Freedom 91.9 Back to the top

The overall freedom to conduct a business is strongly protected under the U.S. regulatory environment. Starting a business takes six days, compared to the world average of 38 days. Obtaining a business license takes much less than the world average of 18 procedures and 225 days. Bankruptcy proceedings are very easy and straightforward.

I'm not saying it's THE best, but it's amongst the best if you're an enterprising kind of person.

[Cabra West]

Because my point was (well I don't know her job) that it would be up to a company to set her up with that job, not Ireland or America.

So the opportunities your talking about are offered by US companies rather than the US itself, then?

[Neesika]

Ok, so he we have it.

The fact that you could move there easily is because of the EU's border breakdown . . . seperate from the opportunity arguement.

How is that separate? What rubric are you using? Issues with national/supranational borders seem fairly central to a nation's 'modes of opportunity'. Access to opportunities created by or offered by sovereign nations seem obviously impacted by border control policies. I'm not sure how you can exclude that.

[Cabra West]

Not really... it would have been serious hassle for me to move to the US, the buerocracy would have been prohibitive.
Whereas Ireland, no buerocracy for me at all. I simply showed up and found a job within days, which by now has turned into a nice little career.

The wonders of the EU, eh?

Yep. I LOVE it, makes life so much easier

[The Atlantian islands]

I don't believe in America, either.

Your loss. Really.

I do beleive in America and the American dream . . . with good reason. Family members of mine have lived it and really made it from nothing. It is no myth, and it re-enforces my admiration for the American way that the way these people suceeded could not have happend elsewhere.

For those of us non-USians on the forum can you please tell me what you mean when you say you believe in 'America'? What is 'America'? What is the 'American dream'?

Starting from nothing. No connections. Not being in the "upper class". Not from a rich family. Being a nobody.

Then having your dreams of what you want to do in life, and launching it off with nothing but your aspirations and intelligence.

And having a real chance to make it.

Like I said, I personally have family members who have done just that. You may choose to not believe me, but I'm not just writing this for finger-excersize.

[The Atlantian islands]

Because my point was (well I don't know her job) that it would be up to a company to set her up with that job, not Ireland or America.

So the opportunities your talking about are offered by US companies rather than the US itself, then?

You just made it sound like the Ireland was providing you something the U.S. couldn't. . . when in reality you just found a job quickly in Ireland....that could have just as easily been found in the U.S.

[Neesika]

Because my point was (well I don't know her job) that it would be up to a company to set her up with that job, not Ireland or America.

So the opportunities your talking about are offered by US companies rather than the US itself, then?

I don't see how business can be separated from national legislation/corporate regulations/resources. No, one corporation is not the country, but the way in which business operates within national borders (and in relation to transnational dealings) is certainly an aspect of a nation's...identity?

[Cabra West]

The fact that you could move there easily is because of the EU's border breakdown . . . seperate from the opportunity arguement.

Now the fact that you found a job quickly, that is the opportunity arguement. Ireland has been famous for it's capitalistic and pro-business/entrepreneurial attitude . .. that allows for more opportunity. But that doesn't mean you would not have found opportunity in the U.S. It just means that it was more simple for you to travel from Germany to Ireland.

Which is obvious.

Er... no. It offered me the opportunity to find a job without any hassle at all.
That's to some extend down to Ireland's economic politics, attracting investment as much as possible and getting multi-nationals to set up in the country.
But mostly, it was down to the fact that I could just show up and work here, with no paper-trail attached. That was the opportunity I'm talking about.

[Ashmoria]

i cant honestly imagine why anyone moves from their country of origin other than the most extreme reasons.

there IS no best place to live. it seems crazy to me that anyone might look at a list and say "ill move to one of the top 5" or "yikes, my country is near the bottom id better emigrate"

this is not intended as criticism of anyone who has moved or plans to move. it just means i dont understand the impulse.

Well, I don't know about "extreme" reasons. I think getting a good paying job or otherwise just getting a chance to build the kind of lifestyle a person wants is a good reason to move. I think just wanting to move is a good enough reason -- like if you "find yourself" in India or something, that's a perfectly good reason to move to India.

oh im no judge of what is a good enough reason but i cant imagine WANTING to move to india. i can imagine wanting to GO to india and maybe spend a long time there but to move there...no.

a big part of that being not understanding why people move to places where they dont know the language fluently.

to me, its either too different--india, japan, etc. to be able to stand the culture shock or too much the same--europe to be bothered with moving. there is nothing in ireland, for example, so good that it cant be got in this country.

in the same way i dont understand why the non-desperate move to this country.

[The Atlantian islands]

USA . . . for the sheer amount of opportunity to make whatever life for yourself you wish.

Similar (or better) opportunities exist in almost every rich country. What makes the USA special in this regard, aside from it claiming it is ?

Absolutely not.. Name me one country that offers more opportunity than the USA.

As I said: almost every rich country. The "American Dream" - start from scratch and become rich ? You can do that in the USA, Germany, UK, Netherlands, Australia, France, China etc. etc. Perhaps even easier, since high quality higher education is much cheaper in many of them. Becoming the president ?
Well sure, not all those countries have presidents - but similar functions like prime-minister and so on are certainly within reach of someone willing to work for it. And due to the multi-party systems of many of them perhaps even easier once again.
Finding happiness ? Practice yor religion ? Meeting new friends ? Researching new technology ? None of those things are restricted to the USA.

So... what opportunities does the USA offer that other countries don't ?

No, it's not the same. Europe is much more solid in its class-system. It's quite easy to be born into a comfortable living situation and die in it . . and not worry much, but it's very, very hard to make it if you want t go between classes. In the USA, it's much easier.

For example, in Europe . . . if you go bankrupt, you become a social outcast and in Germany you are even discriminated against.

In the USA, it's seen as the pathway to greatness. Experiment 100 tmes. Fail 99 times. Make it big once.

[Neesika]

You just made it sound like the Ireland was providing you something the U.S. couldn't. . . when in reality you just found a job quickly in Ireland....that could have just as easily been found in the U.S.

Except that is false, because it ignores border controls (need for a visa, worker permit, etc) and it ignores whatever other costs would be incurred by accessing an opportunity in the US. For a USian living in the US, the opportunity would likely be easier to access than for a non-USian living abroad. This seems obvious, but no so obvious that you can simply discount it.

[Muravyets]

I don't believe in America, either.

Your loss. Really.

I do beleive in America and the American dream . . . with good reason. Family members of mine have lived it and really made it from nothing. It is no myth, and it re-enforces my admiration for the American way that the way these people suceeded could not have happend elsewhere.

Snipping quotes so you can misrepresent what the other person said does not actually make you look witty. But it does help explain why I think you're talking crap.

[Cabra West]

Starting from nothing. No connections. Not being in the "upper class". Not from a rich family. Being a nobody.

Then having your dreams of what you want to do in life, and launching it off with nothing but your aspirations and intelligence.

And having a real chance to make it.

Like I said, I personally have family members who have done just that. You may choose to not believe me, but I'm not just writing this for finger-excersize.

Sounds pretty much like what me and my husband have done. Is that now the Irish dream, then?

[The Atlantian islands]

Because my point was (well I don't know her job) that it would be up to a company to set her up with that job, not Ireland or America.

So the opportunities your talking about are offered by US companies rather than the US itself, then?

I don't see how business can be separated from national legislation/corporate regulations/resources. No, one corporation is not the country, but the way in which business operates within national borders (and in relation to transnational dealings) is certainly an aspect of a nation's...identity?

Right but in comparison of the opportunity between nations, not between a nation and the continent of Europe, the USA comes away.

You can find much more opportunity in America, all speaking the same language with similar cultures, similar customs and no "international regulations" between states.

[Neesika]

Sounds pretty much like what me and my husband have done. Is that now the Irish dream, then?

No no no, it's the 'American dream' being lived by Irishfolk.

Wait, you got married!? When the fuck did that happen!?

[Cabra West]

Because my point was (well I don't know her job) that it would be up to a company to set her up with that job, not Ireland or America.

So the opportunities your talking about are offered by US companies rather than the US itself, then?

You just made it sound like the Ireland was providing you something the U.S. couldn't. . . when in reality you just found a job quickly in Ireland....that could have just as easily been found in the U.S.

Ireland provided me with an easy, hassle-free way of finding a job. The US doesn't.

[Hydesland]

Sounds pretty much like what me and my husband have done. Is that now the Irish dream, then?

It can be argued that much of the economic prosperity is in Ireland is influenced by ideas coming out of the US, and some commonwealth nations, but I guess that's a digression.

[The Atlantian islands]

Starting from nothing. No connections. Not being in the "upper class". Not from a rich family. Being a nobody.

Then having your dreams of what you want to do in life, and launching it off with nothing but your aspirations and intelligence.

And having a real chance to make it.

Like I said, I personally have family members who have done just that. You may choose to not believe me, but I'm not just writing this for finger-excersize.

Sounds pretty much like what me and my husband have done. Is that now the Irish dream, then?

Well, Ireland was working quite hard to foster that kind of capitalistic enviornment, you know.

Enjoy the fruits of a capitalistic pro-entrepreneur soceity while you vote left against those very priciples

[The Alma Mater]

Sounds pretty much like what me and my husband have done. Is that now the Irish dream, then?

It can be argued that much of the economic prosperity is in Ireland is influenced by ideas coming out of the US, and some commonwealth nations, but I guess that's a digression.

Do those ideas not predate the USA by several millenia ?

[Cabra West]

Sounds pretty much like what me and my husband have done. Is that now the Irish dream, then?

No no no, it's the 'American dream' being lived by Irishfolk.

Wait, you got married!? When the fuck did that happen!?

Pretty much exactly a month ago now

[Neesika]

Right but in comparison of the opportunity between nations, not between a nation and the continent of Europe, the USA comes away.

You can find much more opportunity in America, all speaking the same language with similar cultures, similar customs and no "international regulations" between states.

I don't see how you can realistically isolate a nation and ignore its position in a wider regional context, as you are attempting to do here. Cabra isn't discussing the continent of Europe, she's discussing how certain nations within the wider regional context (in particular in reference to border controls) seem to offer opportunities as good as what you're discussing as being available in the US. What 'more opportunity' is available to Cabra that would not be available to her where she is? Please be specific.

[The Atlantian islands]

Sounds pretty much like what me and my husband have done. Is that now the Irish dream, then?

It can be argued that much of the economic prosperity is in Ireland is influenced by ideas coming out of the US, and some commonwealth nations, but I guess that's a digression.

Do those ideas not predate the USA by several millenia ?

No. As being fundamental concepts of how a nation operates, the USA was the first to be created with these ideas at its base.

[Lackadaisical2]

USA . . . for the sheer amount of opportunity to make whatever life for yourself you wish.

this.

Fuck all those other countries, I don't want to live that long anyway (not that I plan on being poor or black either, so it probably won't make any difference).