I Find This Disgusting, Does NationStates?

[Neutraligon]

Many of you don't seem to understand Christian doctrine at all, juuuuust saying. Not intending this to be an insult or anything, it's just that many atheists pretty much get all of their stuff from the wrong sources--people with an agenda.

The reason we can't go to heaven normally is because we all suck. Nobody's perfect.

Jesus died in our place to satisfy the fact that we all deserve to die. Faith in him is the only way to receive the gift.

That begs the question of whether or not people who have never heard of Jesus go to heaven. You could say that a) they never would have believed even if they got the chance or b) they can be saved if they realize they are sinful beings and repent.

You guys are jumping on a pastor for reaffirming Christian doctrine in a somewhat, I would agree, insensitive manner. But this reaction is exactly what I would expect from somewhere like /r/Atheism, and please don't tell me you consider them role models...

People are not saved based on semantics. A maximally great being (God) does not require saving.

You know there are people commenting on this who are theists. Even if I go with your claim that Jesus is God, he was still a man on earth and born to a religion. I am not being semantic, I am trying to understand how this heaven thnig works since it is so different from my religions beliefs.

[Mavorpen]

A man with God has a moral focal point and accountability. He does not lie, cheat, steal, or kill, because his faith in God and his morality prohibit him from doing so. A man without God, raised in the belief that life is meaningless, godless, and temporary, has no reason to remain accountable to anyone or anything. This is the dangerous man, who lies, cheats, steals and, sadly, kills.

Too bad this is bullshit.

[Hamste]

Many of you don't seem to understand Christian doctrine at all, juuuuust saying. Not intending this to be an insult or anything, it's just that many atheists pretty much get all of their stuff from the wrong sources--people with an agenda.

The reason we can't go to heaven normally is because we all suck. Nobody's perfect.

Jesus died in our place to satisfy the fact that we all deserve to die. Faith in him is the only way to receive the gift.

That begs the question of whether or not people who have never heard of Jesus go to heaven. You could say that a) they never would have believed even if they got the chance or b) they can be saved if they realize they are sinful beings and repent.

You guys are jumping on a pastor for reaffirming Christian doctrine in a somewhat, I would agree, insensitive manner. But this reaction is exactly what I would expect from somewhere like /r/Atheism, and please don't tell me you consider them role models...

People are not saved based on semantics. A maximally great being (God) does not require saving.

Can you clarify the rule where no one will honour an idol or false god before him? Wouldn't that include a lot of religions and that is a core rule in the religion isn't it?

[Mavorpen]

Many of you don't seem to understand Christian doctrine at all, juuuuust saying. Not intending this to be an insult or anything, it's just that many atheists pretty much get all of their stuff from the wrong sources--people with an agenda.

*cough*Bullshit*cough*

[Des-Bal]

The simple answer there is free will. God afforded man the freedom of choice, and it's not something he's going to go back on. Free will has created greed, free will has created murder, and free will created atheism. Free will and social ignorance also created distasteful ways of conveying religion, but I think we've been there, done that.

The most prevailing argument I face when discussing God's "benevolence" with agnostics is the destructive, inhuman nature of this world and how He appears to be doing nothing about it. What people fail to realize is that destruction and inhumanity is the product of man itself.

A man with God has a moral focal point and accountability. He does not lie, cheat, steal, or kill, because his faith in God and his morality prohibit him from doing so. A man without God, raised in the belief that life is meaningless, godless, and temporary, has no reason to remain accountable to anyone or anything. This is the dangerous man, who lies, cheats, steals and, sadly, kills.

This man then looks at the world and watches his cities burn, and then spits at the prospect of God, who could have stopped everything. But God would not intervene, because he gave this man free will. He gave the man a choice, and the man chose to forsake God to enjoy his life however he pleased. People were hurt, people were lost, and people were left hopeless because this man reveled in the fact that there was no God to hold him back.

Well, I'm not really here to preach to you (though it looks as though I have). My point is simply that humanity destroys itself. If the world does not want God, then that's their choice to make, but God is not going to step in and say "hey now, this is going to end badly" every time someone picks up a gun.

All the talk surrounding the Aurora incident deeply saddens me, and I do not wish to offend anyone. If I have, you have my sincerest apologies. I know there are legitimate people out there, regardless of their beliefs, and I just seek to shed a little light on what I feel God actually means, without the lens of a fanatic.

1.Free will and an omniscient creator cannot coexist. If you set up dominos you know exactly what they're going to do.

2. If you're telling me that your relationship with god is the only thing keeping you from lying, cheating, stealing, or killing you are a fucking psychopath for the love of god get help.

[Pretty Awesome Persons]

Reminds me of what my pastor said in church yesterday, preaching about the same thing ironically.

He said that since people refuse to believe in hell or in any of the more difficult or "scary" parts of Christianity, more people are going to hell and he brought up the Colorado shooting and about how many people there died and went to hell.

I'm used to it though, when the Haiti earthquake happened, she said it was God's punishment for all the voodoo that happens there.

[Locyrmor]

1. Molinism answers this by stating that being ominiscent God knows what choices people will make and acts accordingly, which is perfectly compatible with free will.
2. I've heard this a lot. What's wrong with being a psychopath?

Many of you don't seem to understand Christian doctrine at all, juuuuust saying. Not intending this to be an insult or anything, it's just that many atheists pretty much get all of their stuff from the wrong sources--people with an agenda.

*cough*Bullshit*cough*

1) I said many, not most.
2) Way to completely take my post out of context. I was referring to the thread.
3) I never made a claim about other Christians knowing actual Christian doctrine.

The first sign of a troll is when they're more interested in embarrassing you rather than having a reasonable conversation.

Can you clarify the rule where no one will honour an idol or false god before him? Wouldn't that include a lot of religions and that is a core rule in the religion isn't it?

As far as I know Paul talks about Abraham's faith being accounted to him as righteousness.

I'm not really well read on the subject of salvation to non-believers. You can look up WIlliam Lane Craig's website if you really want to do some research. I've been oversaturated with pointless discussions with trolls in a lot of places, so I'm a bit rusty on that.

[Inzijard]

Too bad this is bullshit.

I do not speak on behalf of the religious world. I simply speak on behalf of my experience and knowledge of faith, and what it actually means to me. What man chooses to do with his free will, whether he is faithful or not, is not always what he ought to do in the name of God (no surprise there).

I am not innocent. I have lied and stolen, and I'll admit to that. Nobody is innocent, and God does not expect perfection or innocence. He does, however, expect acknowledgement of such guilt and an effort to make right. Those faithful people who abuse their freedom and commit atrocious acts against humanity and God, all in the knowledge that "God will forgive them" have another thing coming. I have no respect for these people, and they are becoming increasingly prevalent. In fact, I don't know very many devout people anymore.

Heaven and hell may be one thing, but God does not operate a Boolean system. If you waste your life away and the lives of others, faithful as you may be, you will be judged accordingly. There are always intermediate steps between life and the end goal.

[Des-Bal]

1. Molinism answers this by stating that being ominiscent God knows what choices people will make and acts accordingly, which is perfectly compatible with free will.
2. I've heard this a lot. What's wrong with being a psychopath?

*cough*Bullshit*cough*

1) I said many, not most.
2) Way to completely take my post out of context. I was referring to the thread.
3) I never made a claim about other Christians knowing actual Christian doctrine.

The first sign of a troll is when they're more interested in embarrassing you rather than having a reasonable conversation.

Many christians are rapists, many supported Nazis, many are Klan members, many are my next door neighbor and their kids. You've removed all meaning from the word many, this is the world you have created.

[Norstal]

You've heard my opinion, now I want to hear yours. What does NationStates think?

If anybody does not love the Lord Jesus Christ let him be accursed O Lord come amen.

[Mavorpen]

1) I said many, not most.
2) Way to completely take my post out of context. I was referring to the thread.
3) I never made a claim about other Christians knowing actual Christian doctrine.

The first sign of a troll is when they're more interested in embarrassing you rather than having a reasonable conversation.

It was to your point that...

Many of you don't seem to understand Christian doctrine at all, juuuuust saying. Not intending this to be an insult or anything, it's just that many atheists pretty much get all of their stuff from the wrong sources--people with an agenda.

I also don't care if you said most. I'd still need a sorcer for "many." I also never said you claimed anything about Christians. I was addressing your claim about Atheists. My post had nothing to do with Christians. So no, the only person who took anything out of context was you.

[Inzijard]

2. If you're telling me that your relationship with god is the only thing keeping you from lying, cheating, stealing, or killing you are a fucking psychopath for the love of god get help.

Where did that idea come from?

I never once said or implied that. I respect all people who offer the same degree of respect to me, and the fact that you think I'm governed solely by God's interests is true testament to just how shallow you are.

I am a human being too. I can empathise with people. I can share their enjoyment and their suffering. God does not govern my emotions and I am appalled by your statement.

Yes, I used a fancy word. I am appalled.

[Norstal]

Reminds me of what my pastor said in church yesterday, preaching about the same thing ironically.

He said that since people refuse to believe in hell or in any of the more difficult or "scary" parts of Christianity, more people are going to hell and he brought up the Colorado shooting and about how many people there died and went to hell.

I'm used to it though, when the Haiti earthquake happened, she said it was God's punishment for all the voodoo that happens there.

And you keep going there why?

[Northern Dominus]

Reminds me of what my pastor said in church yesterday, preaching about the same thing ironically.

He said that since people refuse to believe in hell or in any of the more difficult or "scary" parts of Christianity, more people are going to hell and he brought up the Colorado shooting and about how many people there died and went to hell.

I'm used to it though, when the Haiti earthquake happened, she said it was God's punishment for all the voodoo that happens there.

Does this sum it up for your pastor?

[Pretty Awesome Persons]

Reminds me of what my pastor said in church yesterday, preaching about the same thing ironically.

He said that since people refuse to believe in hell or in any of the more difficult or "scary" parts of Christianity, more people are going to hell and he brought up the Colorado shooting and about how many people there died and went to hell.

I'm used to it though, when the Haiti earthquake happened, she said it was God's punishment for all the voodoo that happens there.

And you keep going there why?

I'm 15, and even though my parents are aware of the fact that I'm atheist, they believe that it's because I'm not opening my heart and ears enough to what's said at church. So they drag me, and I can't tell them otherwise.

[Des-Bal]

2. If you're telling me that your relationship with god is the only thing keeping you from lying, cheating, stealing, or killing you are a fucking psychopath for the love of god get help.

Where did that idea come from?

I never once said or implied that. I respect all people who offer the same degree of respect to me, and the fact that you think I'm governed solely by God's interests is true testament to just how shallow you are.

I am a human being too. I can empathise with people. I can share their enjoyment and their suffering. God does not govern my emotions and I am appalled by your statement.

Yes, I used a fancy word. I am appalled.

" A man without God, raised in the belief that life is meaningless, godless, and temporary, has no reason to remain accountable to anyone or anything. This is the dangerous man, who lies, cheats, steals and, sadly, kills."

[Mavorpen]

I do not speak on behalf of the religious world. I simply speak on behalf of my experience and knowledge of faith, and what it actually means to me. What man chooses to do with his free will, whether he is faithful or not, is not always what he ought to do in the name of God (no surprise there).

Nice No True Scotsman here. I don't care if you believe they aren't "true Christians." You made an incorrect claim.

I am not innocent. I have lied and stolen, and I'll admit to that. Nobody is innocent, and God does not expect perfection or innocence. He does, however, expect acknowledgement of such guilt and an effort to make right.

Which doesn't require belief in a God.

Those faithful people who abuse their freedom and commit atrocious acts against humanity and God, all in the knowledge that "God will forgive them" have another thing coming. I have no respect for these people, and they are becoming increasingly prevalent. In fact, I don't know very many devout people anymore.

Funny, the most devout people I know are the most bigoted.

[Milks Empire]

And you keep going there why?

I'm 15, and even though my parents are aware of the fact that I'm atheist, they believe that it's because I'm not opening my heart and ears enough to what's said at church. So they drag me, and I can't tell them otherwise.

That complicates things.

[Norstal]

And you keep going there why?

I'm 15, and even though my parents are aware of the fact that I'm atheist, they believe that it's because I'm not opening my heart and ears enough to what's said at church. So they drag me, and I can't tell them otherwise.

Heh, I'm 20 and I'm in the same position as you mate...

Just until I'm done with college anyways.

[Locyrmor]

I also don't care if you said most. I'd still need a sorcer for "many."

Does personal experience count in the context of my comment?

I also never said you claimed anything about Christians. I was addressing your claim about Atheists.

I was referring to the thread and my experiences. If I have encountered "many" atheists that have misconceptions, then it is sufficient for me to make the claim that "many atheists have misconceptions." That was all I was claiming.

My post had nothing to do with Christians.

Your post was a link to a source titled "Atheists, agnostics most knowledgeable about religion, survey says."

So no, your post had everything to do with Christians as your source implied that atheists know more about religion than Christians, which asserts the opposite--that Christians know less.

So no, the only person who took anything out of context was you.

That's strike two. I don't respond to trolls online, sorry.

[Mavorpen]

I'm 15, and even though my parents are aware of the fact that I'm atheist, they believe that it's because I'm not opening my heart and ears enough to what's said at church. So they drag me, and I can't tell them otherwise.

That's really bad. My parents don't make me go to Church. They don't even bother me with religion. We just don't talk about it, and sometimes when we do, it's a calm discussion. None of the, "ACCEPT JESUS OR BURN!" shit.

[Mavorpen]

Does personal experience count in the context of my comment?

No, it doesn't.

I was referring to the thread and my experiences. If I have encountered "many" atheists that have misconceptions, then it is sufficient for me to make the claim that "many atheists have misconceptions." That was all I was claiming.

It may be sufficient for you, but not for us. And I'm still going to call bullshit because most of the Atheists on NSG are knowledgeable about religion.

Your post was a link to a source titled "Atheists, agnostics most knowledgeable about religion, survey says."

So no, your post had everything to do with Christians as your source implied that atheists know more about religion than Christians, which asserts the opposite--that Christians know less.

No, my source had something to do with Christians. My post had nothing to do with Christians because your post was speaking about Atheists. I provided a source to address the specific claim about Atheists, not about Christians.

That's strike two. I don't respond to trolls online, sorry.

You don't have an actual argument, do you?

[Locyrmor]

Nice No True Scotsman here. I don't care if you believe they aren't "true Christians." You made an incorrect claim.

If I called myself a member of a group, that does not automatically make me a member of my group.

If a Christian by definition means that you have faith in Christ (which directly means a Christian is by definition saved) then Matthew 7-8 would indicate that there certainly are people who call themselves Christians that cannot be considered Christians.

Which doesn't require belief in a God.

Belief in God certainly justifies it though.

Funny, the most devout people I know are the most bigoted.

"Love your neighbor" is one of Jesus' primary teachings. If these people are truly "devout" then they cannot be bigoted.

[Grenartia]

The simple answer there is free will. God afforded man the freedom of choice, and it's not something he's going to go back on. Free will has created greed, free will has created murder, and free will created atheism. Free will and social ignorance also created distasteful ways of conveying religion, but I think we've been there, done that.

The most prevailing argument I face when discussing God's "benevolence" with agnostics is the destructive, inhuman nature of this world and how He appears to be doing nothing about it. What people fail to realize is that destruction and inhumanity is the product of man itself.

A man with God has a moral focal point and accountability. He does not lie, cheat, steal, or kill, because his faith in God and his morality prohibit him from doing so. A man without God, raised in the belief that life is meaningless, godless, and temporary, has no reason to remain accountable to anyone or anything. This is the dangerous man, who lies, cheats, steals and, sadly, kills.

This man then looks at the world and watches his cities burn, and then spits at the prospect of God, who could have stopped everything. But God would not intervene, because he gave this man free will. He gave the man a choice, and the man chose to forsake God to enjoy his life however he pleased. People were hurt, people were lost, and people were left hopeless because this man reveled in the fact that there was no God to hold him back.

Well, I'm not really here to preach to you (though it looks as though I have). My point is simply that humanity destroys itself. If the world does not want God, then that's their choice to make, but God is not going to step in and say "hey now, this is going to end badly" every time someone picks up a gun.

All the talk surrounding the Aurora incident deeply saddens me, and I do not wish to offend anyone. If I have, you have my sincerest apologies. I know there are legitimate people out there, regardless of their beliefs, and I just seek to shed a little light on what I feel God actually means, without the lens of a fanatic.

1.Free will and an omniscient creator cannot coexist. If you set up dominos you know exactly what they're going to do.

2. If you're telling me that your relationship with god is the only thing keeping you from lying, cheating, stealing, or killing you are a fucking psychopath for the love of god get help.

1. I see it like this:

God knows all, and has given us free will. He knows everything we will consider doing, and knows the consequences of every possible action and reaction. Essentially, He plans for everything we might do, as well as for every possible action/reaction on the part of everybody else. Hard to adequately explain, but suffice it to say that it is infinitely more complex than dominos.

Think of it more as knowing every possible opening move in a game of chess, as well as every move in response, and so on.

[Greed and Death]

Reminds me of the guy who got out of the army for pysch issues.

He asked the Chaplin wouldn't it be a good thing to kill a hundred babies because it would ensure they all go to heaven?